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Old 04-20-2013, 11:36 AM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boris632 View Post


so someone in the market for a late model car with excellent track manners cannot look at used cars?

You are smarter than this
I think what he's trying to say is that when someone starts comparing something slightly used versus something new is like comparing apples to oranges. The old doesn't have the benefits of the new in regards to things like warranty, for example.
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Old 04-20-2013, 12:03 PM   #152
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...and MAYBE that's the problem...maybe they can't assemble an unlimited number...so they increased the content (and therefore price) to lower demand to a build-able number...

[light bulb moment]
Thats exactly it! With CAFE, you CANT make this a car that many can afford otherwise you MUST include it in your avg camaro fleet which in turn drops your avg mpgs down. Then, GM gets fined because they have to get above 35.5 with the 4 fleets they include? An LS7 as a production car will limit that number to probably 32 mpg. Unacceptable.

The car will NOT be easily affordable. Its pathetic but GM cant afford to fight against someone who bailed their asses out of bankruptcy. They should eat the fine and produce at a cost around a ZL-1. Theyd make enough profit to foot the fine and pocket money IF they increased the rest of their fleet to gain 2-4 mpgs amongst the rest of their fleet.

Heres what happens when you disobey CAFE. You must spend $55 per vehicle you produce from the company. In this case Chevrolet. The total number of vehicles producd by Chevy in say 2014, they must pay $55 per vehicle. Thats quite a large sum of money. Im pretty sure they could increase mpgs enough to build an SS with an LS7 and charge $42-43k for it and then option the track packs. Sadly they wont. But not many companies follow CAFE too strictly. Mercedes paid out the fine for not complying. GM COULD do it as well. One yr wouldnt kill them IMO.

heres the CAFE link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpora...e_Fuel_Economy
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Old 04-20-2013, 12:29 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boris632
While the list is impressive for what the Z/28 is going after -i might be swayed to buy a used 911 Turbo over a new Z/28.
Then when you find out what it costs to maintain a 911 Turbo you will wish you had been smart and bought the Z/28.
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Old 04-20-2013, 12:50 PM   #154
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Then when you find out what it costs to maintain a 911 Turbo you will wish you had been smart and bought the Z/28.
Sorry but maintenance on that Z will be right there with the Porsche
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Old 04-20-2013, 12:54 PM   #155
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You've obviously never owned a Porsche...
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Old 04-20-2013, 01:03 PM   #156
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This is an area that I think is worth noting...To truly do this car justice and race it, maintain it, and do it fairly often, the MSRP is probably the least concerning expense...Target market for this car?...Again, I'll say if you gotta ask, you can't afford it...
...It's a "toy", but for sure not gonna be a cheap toy once the full cost and expense of owning and racing one is calculated...
Kudos to those who will do it...But for most of us, I think a good reality check is in order...
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Old 04-20-2013, 01:19 PM   #157
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According to my Service manager,whom i know and trust,the price on the Z/28 will be $69,000
with ADM from dealers... $75k+++
watch...
.......not worth that to me......
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Old 04-20-2013, 02:19 PM   #158
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with ADM from dealers... $75k+++
watch...
.......not worth that to me......
People actually buy cars from dealers that charge ADM? Wow.
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Old 04-20-2013, 02:40 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Wizard1183 View Post
Sorry but maintenance on that Z will be right there with the Porsche



Quote:
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You've obviously never owned a Porsche...


Let's just start with ceramic rotors. Z/28 will be around the range of $1000 per rotor. Try $5000 per ceramic rotor from Porsche.
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Old 04-20-2013, 02:49 PM   #160
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You've obviously never owned a Porsche...
i have and it was a hypothetical

Love Porsches and always wanted a 993 Turbo but I am kind of over doing the euro car thing.

As for warranty - you track it you lose it. So if you are looking for a race car - a warranty is meaningless
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Old 04-20-2013, 02:51 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by Wizard1183 View Post
Thats exactly it! With CAFE, you CANT make this a car that many can afford otherwise you MUST include it in your avg camaro fleet which in turn drops your avg mpgs down. Then, GM gets fined because they have to get above 35.5 with the 4 fleets they include? An LS7 as a production car will limit that number to probably 32 mpg. Unacceptable.

The car will NOT be easily affordable. Its pathetic but GM cant afford to fight against someone who bailed their asses out of bankruptcy. They should eat the fine and produce at a cost around a ZL-1. Theyd make enough profit to foot the fine and pocket money IF they increased the rest of their fleet to gain 2-4 mpgs amongst the rest of their fleet.

Heres what happens when you disobey CAFE. You must spend $55 per vehicle you produce from the company. In this case Chevrolet. The total number of vehicles producd by Chevy in say 2014, they must pay $55 per vehicle. Thats quite a large sum of money. Im pretty sure they could increase mpgs enough to build an SS with an LS7 and charge $42-43k for it and then option the track packs. Sadly they wont. But not many companies follow CAFE too strictly. Mercedes paid out the fine for not complying. GM COULD do it as well. One yr wouldnt kill them IMO.

heres the CAFE link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpora...e_Fuel_Economy
time for a diesel hybrid camaro
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Old 04-20-2013, 03:16 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boris632 View Post
i have and it was a hypothetical

Love Porsches and always wanted a 993 Turbo but I am kind of over doing the euro car thing.

As for warranty - you track it you lose it. So if you are looking for a race car - a warranty is meaningless
If the ZL1 is warrantied on the track (as long as the proper maintenance is done) why wouldn't it be any different for the Z/28? OH that's right, you're new here and you probably didn't know that
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CAFE STANDARDS! Get used to them or vote our electeds in Washington out of office...........
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Old 04-20-2013, 03:37 PM   #163
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Was gunna say, ZL1 is covered by it's warranty on and off the track. The Z/28 will be too.

The 911? Enjoy your slow track car.

Even a ZL1 will lap that.

PORSCHE 911 CARRERA S 2:58.9
CHEVROLET CAMARO ZL1 2:57.5/83.2
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Old 04-20-2013, 03:39 PM   #164
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Why would you get a Porsche instead of a Camaro? Not trying to pick on you, but American Muscle vs Import...... Muscle Car wins every time.
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Old 04-20-2013, 05:20 PM   #165
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i will be surprised if it posts a lap time quicker than the ZR1 or Z06 - i don't see it though and both of those cars can be had in that price range used

ZL1 went 7.41 at the ring. The Z06 was almost 20 seconds faster.

Im not buying the Z/28 is that much faster than the ZL1. (20 seconds around the ring)

2008 911 Turbo 7.38
2009 GTR 7.26

4 cars that went faster than a ZL1 around the ring that can be had for 60k+ Z/28 money.

While the list is impressive for what the Z/28 is going after -i might be swayed to buy a used 911 Turbo over a new Z/28.

I can't wait to see times either but this is real world competition from a sales standpoint
Yeah the up front cost maybe palatable, but that 911 will kill you in insurance and repairs.
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Old 04-20-2013, 07:24 PM   #166
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if it hits their margin number why not?

It will...at a price-yet-to-be-di$closed

Just a few years ago they were in bankruptcy - you would think selling units [at a profit] is in their best interest
Regarding b/k, you're beginning to show some colors few of us want to listen to, any more...expressed or implied.

When you receive your GM stock dividend check (you DO have GM stock...or wish you did, right?), how many pesos do you think they've tallied, so far, from the VOLT? Yup, 'bout that many...so far.

There are myriad reasons for the development and sale of the '14-'15 Z/28. And a short 16-month (or so) run, this late in the game (Gen-6 arrives by Fall '15), requires those development co$t$ be largely borne by those units sold over a very short period of time, relatively.

Again, for the second time today, building and selling the Z/28 in unlimited numbers is NOT in the cards for a bunch of reasons. CAFE notwithstanding...

If you're seriously concerned about a north-of-$60K price, then hustle down to Local Motors and buy yourself a 1LE for $40ish. You'll likely have between 95 and 98% of the Z/28's abilities...but for those who won't settle for less than 100%, aren't we ALL glad that the Team has done what it has?

We should be...
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Old 04-20-2013, 07:27 PM   #167
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Regarding b/k, you're beginning to show some colors few of us want to listen to, any more...

When you receive your GM stock dividend check (you DO have GM stock...or wish you did, right?), how many pesos do you think they've tallied, so far, from the VOLT? Yup, 'bout that many...so far.

There are myriad reasons for the development and sale of the '14-'15 Z/28. And a short 16-month (or so) run, this late in the game (Gen-6 arrives by Fall '15), requires those development co$t$ be largely borne by those units sold.

Again, for the second time today, building and selling the Z/28 in unlimited numbers is NOT in the cards for a bunch of reasons.

If you're seriously concerned about a north-of-$60K price, then hustle down to Local Motors and buy yourself a 1LE for $40ish. You'll likely have between 98 and 99% of the Z/28's abilities...but for those who won't settle for less than 100%, aren't we ALL glad that the Team has done what it has?

We should be...
Best post.
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Old 04-20-2013, 07:41 PM   #168
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Best post.
agreed
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CAFE STANDARDS! Get used to them or vote our electeds in Washington out of office...........
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Old 04-20-2013, 09:41 PM   #169
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If the ZL1 is warrantied on the track (as long as the proper maintenance is done) why wouldn't it be any different for the Z/28? OH that's right, you're new here and you probably didn't know that
That is pretty cool thing on GM's part. Another selling point.
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Old 04-22-2013, 07:45 AM   #170
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there are a lot of great options at this price point and those cars will probably make better track cars than the Z/28

Which is why I think GM has a very small window to fit this car in.

If they can make it 55k or less - they will sell a lot of them
yup. exactly my thinking. there is no car in this class, so it will be hard to sell. and for its price there are many faster cars with more luxuries to it. track ready or not....a GTR is by no means a dedicated track car, yet it will destroy a Z28...no doubt in my mind.
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Old 04-22-2013, 07:46 AM   #171
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If you really believe that you are going to be VERY VERY surprised when the Z/28 starts posting lap times.
believe me, there are a lot better option for track cars than the 70k z28.....ariel atom.....
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Old 04-22-2013, 07:49 AM   #172
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I don't think it's so much that they will make better track cars so much as many of them will be legal for actual competition racing. That and that along is why GM has a small window to fit with this car. The Z/28 will more than likely not be sanctioned... Unless GM really wanted to try and go out if their way and get it sanctioned...
its not legal for competition racing...it will need a roll cage. and much more....
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Old 04-22-2013, 07:53 AM   #173
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I think what he's trying to say is that when someone starts comparing something slightly used versus something new is like comparing apples to oranges. The old doesn't have the benefits of the new in regards to things like warranty, for example.
sure it does. every car other than my ss has been used and still retained a full warranty.... the z28 will not be able to compete in any races right off the show room floor. it needs much more to it to make it a true race car. that being said, were looking at track day cars for fun. in this category under 70 k....that opens up all kinds of doors. id rather buy a new spec Miata and race it than a z28......
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Old 04-22-2013, 07:54 AM   #174
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Sorry but maintenance on that Z will be right there with the Porsche
yup! and id rather drive the Porsche.
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Old 04-22-2013, 07:57 AM   #175
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yup! and id rather drive the Porsche.


Lol, just kidding.
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