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Old 04-18-2013, 10:17 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Sweet Zness View Post
Blah blah blah, a bunch of ... Blah blah
The z/28 is meant for the hardcore. THIS, you seem to not understand. Look at everything they did to the car, removed a/c, sound, rear glass, wiring, CCR... Even though some of this makes veeeery little to no difference on the track, it's so that GM could back themselves up when they say that this car is made for the HARDCORE track enthusiast. Sure there are other things they could have done, like using lighter chassis components, suspension, etc.. But then the production costs rocket. They had to work with the platform they have which is heavy.

Like GM has said, this car is meant for the track rat... They don't care that you like a/c. Or sound. If you do, they WILL tell you to get a zl1, and stay away from the z/28. if you REALLY want the z/28, you can still option a/c in.

Besides, who is gonna DD a car with 40 treadware tires?

Edit: 60 tw, not 40... Whoops
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Old 04-18-2013, 10:27 PM   #121
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Like GM has said, this car is meant for the track rat..

Besides, who is gonna DD a car with 40 treadware tires?
Maybe the same guy who would use his blinkers to change lane positions on the race-track?...lol...
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Old 04-18-2013, 10:35 PM   #122
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The discussion I am trying to have is that if this is a track superstar Camaro that is specifically built for racing warriors. Then its silly to only be able to use it in a friendly track day setting. Just for shits and giggles.
OK. It's painfully obvious you don't attend track days. How is building/selling a car for track days silly? Those of us that track as a hobby find a production car aimed for us specifically very appealing and refreshing. Yes, it's for shits and giggles. It's a track TOY. Why would you want to make a TOY practical? NOTHING about the car is practical. That's what a Camry is for.

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Its like we are saying "Hey look, we took out the carpet, left one speaker, put these massive breaks on it so the less than one half of one percent of the worlds population would be ok to race it in a friendly only setting"
1) it's spelled BRAKES not break
2) less than 0.5% of the world's population is a HUGE number of Camaros in general to sell. That's about 35 million cars.

Yes. This car is aimed for a very small segment of buyers. Very small. Very niche. If you are complaining about the car, it wasn't meant for you. It's a tough pill to swallow for some. What is wrong with the ZL1? You just don't like the badge?

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Tell me if you believe they couldn't save 300 lbs elsewhere through materials, or parts that wouldn't compromise it as a daily? If your answer is yes, then they should of gone this route, cut off the ceramics priced it just a hair above the ZL1 and sold a lot more of them to Camaro Enthusiasts.
1) Perhaps to Camaro enthusiasts that want to pretend they are 'hardcore', but not track day enthusiasts, which is who the Z/28 was built for.
2) We don't know what the Z/28 will be priced at. I personally think it will cost more than the ZL1, but not by a lot, which is what you are asking for.
3) You seem fixated on the ceramics. With a car that weighs 3800 pounds, brake fade/overheat is going to be a problem IF YOU TRACK THE CAR, and the ceramics are the solution to that problem.
4) The concept of removing A/C and stereo on a track/enthusiast focused car is not new:
The original Subaru STi: had no speakers or stereo.
Porsche Boxster Spyder and Cayman R: no radio, no A/C
Porsche GT3RS: A/C delete and radio delete available

All the people whining about the Z/28 have no intention of ever tracking the car and want it as a daily driver. You're whining because it's the wrong car for YOU.
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Old 04-18-2013, 10:36 PM   #123
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Maybe the same guy who would use his blinkers to change lane positions on the race-track?...lol...
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:25 PM   #124
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hmmm, nope

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FAIL! Use a 1/4 calculator and you get 11.8.
Keep dreaming. That calculator apparently doesn't work right. The 2012 Z06 with 800 less lbs does a 11.9 (by motortrend) The obese camaro, even on a diet, will still only ne a 12.6 at best.

Keep hoping, and prepare for disappointment. I wouldn't be surprised if the Z/28 is slower at the Ring also. The track that the Z/28 was faster than the ZL1 on had only a 0.3 mile straight and was a heavy brake and traction type track. the Ring with big straights and bumpy surfaces is ZL1 mag ride territory. Sorry.

Hell, slap those tires and wheels on the ZL1 and bye bye Z/28.

I am a fan of the Camaro (have). And a fan of the LS7 (had). But have little faith in the LS7 towing the camaro's big butt around.
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:33 PM   #125
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Have any proof?
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You skipped my question so I will ask again.... Can you show me where the SCCA has stated that the Z/28 will not be allowed to run in any class?
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Originally Posted by Sweet Zness View Post
The discussion I am trying to have is that if this is a track superstar Camaro that is specifically built for racing warriors. Then its silly to only be able to use it in a friendly track day setting. Just for shits and giggles.
You seem to be conveniently ignoring my question. Where does it say in the SCCA rule book that the Z/28 will not be allowed to run in ANY class?
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Old 04-18-2013, 11:47 PM   #126
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Keep dreaming. That calculator apparently doesn't work right. The 2012 Z06 with 800 less lbs does a 11.9 (by motortrend) The obese camaro, even on a diet, will still only ne a 12.6 at best.

Keep hoping, and prepare for disappointment. I wouldn't be surprised if the Z/28 is slower at the Ring also. The track that the Z/28 was faster than the ZL1 on had only a 0.3 mile straight and was a heavy brake and traction type track. the Ring with big straights and bumpy surfaces is ZL1 mag ride territory. Sorry.

Hell, slap those tires and wheels on the ZL1 and bye bye Z/28.

I am a fan of the Camaro (have). And a fan of the LS7 (had). But have little faith in the LS7 towing the camaro's big butt around.


the ZL1 has a p/w ratio of 7.1lbs/hp. the z/28 (with 500 hp) is at 7.64 at 3820lbs, which is 300 less than zl1 coupe. now if you add 35 hp to the z/28, it will bump the p/w ratio to 7.1lbs/hp, so really, in terms of p/w, the z/28 is only at a 35 hp disadvantage.

with that disadvantage in mind, the addition of CC brakes, upgraded suspension, lighter wheels with 305's on all 4 corners, aero, 60tw tires, etc... makes up for that loss of 35 hp, and surpasses it.


yeeeaaaahhh, theres no way your beloved zl1 will beat it at the ring. just trust me on this one buddy.

to answer the OP, I think the Z.28 will run the quarter in 12.3. two tenths off the motortrend zl1 time.
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:54 AM   #127
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okay. just watch. I'll be happy when gm finally post the times. BTW, why are they delaying the release of the times at the ring?!?! Because it was slower?

Look at the best times at the ring on wikipedia. Look at the cars before and after the ZL1. The ZL1 doesn't belong there, it is too heavy, the heaviest by a few hundred lbs. The reason the Zl1 did so well, is the Gen 3 mag ride suspension. all those $100k to $300k cars have Excellent suspension, just like the camaro Z28, but the Z28 is much heavier and weaker with only 2wd. Sooo, no mag ride, means slower ring time. Well, maybe it might be the same as it's big brother ZL1. But, again, give the ZL those tires and watch the Z28 lose. I can't wait for the magazine comparisons...
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Old 04-19-2013, 07:55 AM   #128
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okay. just watch. I'll be happy when gm finally post the times. BTW, why are they delaying the release of the times at the ring?!?! Because it was slower?

Look at the best times at the ring on wikipedia. Look at the cars before and after the ZL1. The ZL1 doesn't belong there, it is too heavy, the heaviest by a few hundred lbs. The reason the Zl1 did so well, is the Gen 3 mag ride suspension. all those $100k to $300k cars have Excellent suspension, just like the camaro Z28, but the Z28 is much heavier and weaker with only 2wd. Sooo, no mag ride, means slower ring time. Well, maybe it might be the same as it's big brother ZL1. But, again, give the ZL those tires and watch the Z28 lose. I can't wait for the magazine comparisons...
GM built the car to compete with what you're talking about (100-300k supercars) which is basically euro cars. Had they wanted to obliterate the competition, it'd be impossible with a 5th gen. That's why they have the Vette. Thats GMs REAL track monster unless your competition is ford or dodge.


The Z/28 wouldn't lose against a 300lb difference on the track even if the ZL-1 had 305s. It was built to be dominant and tires alone will not make up the 3 seconds on the track tested at. 3 seconds is a loooooong time when you're talking track time.
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:09 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Sweet Zness View Post
Its exactly what I wanted.

Let me propose this to you though man.

If GM said, we cut the sound deadening, removed the carpet, got rid of the speakers and stereo, and the AC to save 300 lbs to make this Z/28.

Then said, Or we could find other areas to save the weight. And still make this car which would you pick?

Does it have to save weight by only pulling out the stereo or AC? Is there disappointment in it not having crank up windows?

You kill the carbon ceramics or even better make it an option. You can still put some killer suspension on it, or a better brake system. Just not one that is about a 10K cost to this car.

Now we have an all around winner.


Its an opinion man.
Well I raised your manual windows up on previous threads and in comparison, it'd probably be ideal to keep it electric. Manual is a little heavier probably. But do you honestly think GMs going to go backwards with technology? Manual transmissions are on their way out the door. Paddle shifting will replace it.

As for as losing items and adding items to make this car. GM wanted this to be a competitive track car. The brakes HAD to be installed on something that weighs this much in order to compete and perhaps beat some of those super cars.

If GM built a 5th gen and stripped it to bare bones with the minimum they could get away with and added an LS7 and charged $45k with an upgraded suspension, they could call it the 2014 camaro fairy and I'd still buy it. I don't road race or track at ALL. Though its nice the car handles roads awesome. Here in Louisiana, the roads would trash the car. I just want GM to build an low 11 second camaro WITH an LS7 naturally aspirated at $45-50k. I bet MANY would be sold.

It's a VERY unfortunate thing they can't add options for us such as engine, suspension and deletes.
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:23 AM   #130
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okay. just watch. I'll be happy when gm finally post the times. BTW, why are they delaying the release of the times at the ring?!?! Because it was slower?

Look at the best times at the ring on wikipedia. Look at the cars before and after the ZL1. The ZL1 doesn't belong there, it is too heavy, the heaviest by a few hundred lbs. The reason the Zl1 did so well, is the Gen 3 mag ride suspension. all those $100k to $300k cars have Excellent suspension, just like the camaro Z28, but the Z28 is much heavier and weaker with only 2wd. Sooo, no mag ride, means slower ring time. Well, maybe it might be the same as it's big brother ZL1. But, again, give the ZL those tires and watch the Z28 lose. I can't wait for the magazine comparisons...
Good to hear from a ZL1 fan....

....As this Z/28 is touted as "3 seconds faster" at "one" track, I say it's "Game on!"....I hope the ZL1 gets some wins...Nothing but love for S/C muscle, and all the development that went into that car...

Depending on a lot of things unknown about the Z/28, if anyone is on the fence about which one to buy, I think it's way too early to "write-off" the ZL1 as old news...
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:44 AM   #131
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You seem to be conveniently ignoring my question. Where does it say in the SCCA rule book that the Z/28 will not be allowed to run in ANY class?
It doesn't, pure and simple. Mark Stielow isn't a clueless idiot; he knew that the original Z/28 was built to qualify for the SCCA's rules in the Trans Am. That's probably largely the reason why they didn't name the ZL1 the Z/28 because they knew the ZL1's magnetic suspension would keep it out of the normal racing classes. Stielow's team knew exactly what they were doing when they built this car and I don't for a minute believe it's only intended for HPDE weekend drivers. There's no reason to build a car specifically for that; the 1LE fits that need perfectly and is quite affordable for the weekend racer.

Just like the current 5th gen is being run in pro series like the Grand Am I fully expect to see Z/28's running in pro series too. I also wouldn't rule out the possibility of a rebirth of the Trans Am or something simliar by the auto manufacturers. A new series with Camaros, Mustangs, Challengers, Chargers, etc. would get a lot of visibility and do exactly what it did back then; sell cars. People wanted the street versions of the cars they saw in the races on the tracks. Nascar has completely ruined itself for that kind of inspiration. A true manufacturers series would be great. Great for the fans, great for the sport, great for the marketing departments of the manufacturers, great for the dealerships selling the street versions.
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:44 AM   #132
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Good to hear from a ZL1 fan....

....As this Z/28 is touted as "3 seconds faster" at "one" track, I say it's "Game on!"....I hope the ZL1 gets some wins...Nothing but love for S/C muscle, and all the development that went into that car...

Depending on a lot of things unknown about the Z/28, if anyone is on the fence about which one to buy, I think it's way too early to "write-off" the ZL1 as old news...
The ZL-1 is nothing to write off about. It's a strip/track comfy car. 4100lbs and its damn good at the track. But a Z/28 will own it on every track. Not a drag strip though. Now, take that ZL-1 and start stripping shit out of it to get it to 3800? It'll beat the Z/28 no prob.
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:52 AM   #133
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...If GM built a 5th gen and stripped it to bare bones with the minimum they could get away with and added an LS7 and charged $45k with an upgraded suspension, they could call it the 2014 camaro fairy and I'd still buy it. I don't road race or track at ALL. Though its nice the car handles roads awesome. Here in Louisiana, the roads would trash the car. I just want GM to build an low 11 second camaro WITH an LS7 naturally aspirated at $45-50k. I bet MANY would be sold.

It's a VERY unfortunate thing they can't add options for us such as engine, suspension and deletes.
I see this kind of "wish" posted again and again. You can easily add another 80 hp to an LS3 for a LOT less money than an LS7 and get exactly the same power. So why do people want to spend the extra money for an LS7? Is it just the glamour of having an LS7 in the car that people want?
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:02 PM   #134
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I see this kind of "wish" posted again and again. You can easily add another 80 hp to an LS3 for a LOT less money than an LS7 and get exactly the same power. So why do people want to spend the extra money for an LS7? Is it just the glamour of having an LS7 in the car that people want?
It's a race engine with 427.8 c.i. I concur with what you're saying but it's not a factory install. That's the problem. Instead of spending money to replace an engine and then either having to sell your ls3 or allow it to collect dust, you wouldn't have to worry about all the conversions ect. A factory warrantied ls7 option would not be a bad thing and its not like everyone would jump on it to get one. Many would question why would you want that when you have an ls3? I guess it goes with the same principle as a person choosing an SS over a v6 or modding the shit out of an SS that never sees a race. Though I'd race mine if it was an ls7
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:10 PM   #135
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I assume you guys are referring to a standard Z06. Correct? As I'm sure you know, the Z07 equipped Z06 comes with excellent tires too....Michelin Pilot Sport Cups. It also has the CC brakes,along with all the Aero pieces of the ZR1. With equal drivers it will be a good race for the standard car,but no match for a Z06/Z07.
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Old 04-19-2013, 12:28 PM   #136
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GM built the car to compete with what you're talking about (100-300k supercars) which is basically euro cars. Had they wanted to obliterate the competition, it'd be impossible with a 5th gen. That's why they have the Vette. Thats GMs REAL track monster unless your competition is ford or dodge.


The Z/28 wouldn't lose against a 300lb difference on the track even if the ZL-1 had 305s. It was built to be dominant and tires alone will not make up the 3 seconds on the track tested at. 3 seconds is a loooooong time when you're talking track time.
My last car, 2009 m3 dct . Only 414 HP. Puts down the same numbers(1/4 mile, 0 to 60 and top speed) as the zl1. It Weighed only 3600 lbs. It Should have creamed the zl1 at the ring right?!? Not even close. Having owned the car, I would have thought the m3 would be faster there....dct, lighter, impecable brakes, extremely great handling car. I have been trying to figure out why the zl1 was so much faster at the ring. Its not a better chassis, it can't just be the HP. It must be the mag ride and the torque. I have put the ls7 z06 , the m3, and the zl1 through repeated hairpins hard and fast. So many shifts and tight turns that my brain was mush at turn 30 or 40 in a few minutes, the m3 turned easier and more predictably. I think that to succeed at the ring, you need toque and mag ride. The 500 lbs difference didn't help the m3 at the ring and the 300lb diff won't do miracles for the z28. I believe that the ZL1 was originally intended to be the Z28 and gm got it right the first time. It was given the muscle and graceful suspension to do its intended track king job. They should have just given the zl1 carbon ceramic brakes and the new wheels and tires , then called that the new z28. That would be a scary car. This new z is kind of like a wanna be z06 that is too fat on the scale. That ls7 was made for a vette, and belongs in a vette. If i were buying a track only car, i would buy the z06 again. This new z28 looks light a marketing blitz to sell extra camaros. For anyone expecting z06 ring times from a car with the same engine but carrying 800 lbs more, you either have too much faith in sticky tires or you are delusional.

Final evidence of mag ride importance at the ring, look at gm z06 times without mag ride and with mag ride. Same car same engine. Mag ride and better tires and brakes. Huge time diff. Look at zr1 times with or without the special race tires, only a 3 sec diff in lap time. I believe mag ride will keep the ZL1 king at the ring.

Oh, as far the the tires alone making a difference, it will make a huge diff! Ask any stock zl1 owner, we always, always have traction issues. Given stickier tires, the ZL1 could put its power down sooner and we wouldn't have to moderate throttle in second and third. I have driven a 2012ss , they chirp here and there but you guys have no idea how much more potential a Zl has in just tires.
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