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Old 05-02-2013, 02:54 PM   #1
Ntmd8r
 
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Severe Oversteer

2012 2SS RS L99 A6 FE4
Stock 20" wheels and P Zero tires.
5500 Miles
My daily driver.

My style of driving is called "Spirited".

I have been autocrossing for over 30 years
(with Corvettes, now with 2007 Corvette LS2 Z51, Pfadt Sway bars, Coil-overs, R888 Tires)

So I do know how a car should handle.

This Camaro is a "beast".

With my spirited driving style, whenever I want to take a corner with gusto
I really have to wait till the car is almost straight after the turn before giving it some gas, otherwise the rearend is coming around to kiss my frontend.

If I merely take a corner too fast, with no acceleration, the rearend starts to slide out, and I have to brake to get rear adhesion.

Usually north american cars have Understeer built in.
But this is severe oversteer.

How about it Suspension guys..... I can't adjust the rear bar on FE4 (I don't think), different bushings ?, alignment ? ...... or ??????

Thanks for any help

(Oh, I do plan to install Michelin PSS tires in a few months... these P Zeros are terrible)
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Old 05-02-2013, 03:07 PM   #2
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what tire pressure are you using?
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Old 05-02-2013, 03:21 PM   #3
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Is it the same with and without TC on? L99 is an auto trans right? Is it down shifting hard?
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Old 05-02-2013, 03:57 PM   #4
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your stock suspension and have oversteer? i am so confused. if your stock and have oversteer either somethings wrong or you cant drive.
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Old 05-02-2013, 04:42 PM   #5
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Mikamaro... 36 lbs
jeremywes... sorry... haven't tried it with TC on.
It is not downshifting at all... just maintaining a good speed around corners.
SPCBA... thanks for your help
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Old 05-02-2013, 04:50 PM   #6
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Its shit tires. I run a 285 front 315 rear. Makes a big difference. You also need to set your camber correctly and go to a nice double adjustable coil-over.

Being you're stock it could be your body roll momentum swinging you around. the cars are definitely setup to plow from the factory unless you're turning super sharp.
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Old 05-02-2013, 04:50 PM   #7
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Your pressure seems okay, and T/C should not matter.

Are you sure you are on stock sway bars? Because you are correct, it should have understeer.

You may consider going to the Pfadt ZL Spec sway bars. They have 3 stiffness adjustment settings front and rear, so you can fine tune the under/over steer to your driving style and tire selection. You also may want to try a more staggered tire setup and put the rubber where you want it.

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Old 05-02-2013, 05:16 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ntmd8r View Post
If I merely take a corner too fast, with no acceleration, the rearend starts to slide out, and I have to brake to get rear adhesion.
This I do not understand. Applying brakes when the back end is trying to come around should make it worse.
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Old 05-02-2013, 05:54 PM   #9
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These cars are known for severe understeer, hence the 1LE package. Something isn't right with you or the car.
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Old 05-02-2013, 06:07 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyg36 View Post
These cars are known for severe understeer, hence the 1LE package. Something isn't right with you or the car.
^^This. The Camaro has never had a particularly good chassis (at least in terms of handling) without shelling out for a 1LE or ZL1. And the tendency of them at the limit is normally toward significant understeer.
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Old 05-02-2013, 08:40 PM   #11
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Iron Lung Jimmy.... I apply the brakes to slow it down..... to stop the rear from sliding out. And that works.

Tyler... I think it is stock FE4... I am not the first owner, but I got it from a dealer so
not sure if anything was done... but everything else was pristine... so I think nothing was done.
FE4 should make it turn better (I expect), and I don't think it is adjustable.

With the new Michelin tires I plan to go with the stock wheels and
285x35 Rear
255x40 Front

And I will make sure I have some camber in the rears with zero toe.

I was just wondering if anyone had any similar action on their car.

Thanks guys, for your input.
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Old 05-03-2013, 01:47 PM   #12
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As everyone has chimed in, these things are prone to understeer. When I set up my car (F/R coilvers, Pfadt Racing ASB's) at maximum stiffness, I do get a little oversteer. Then I just back off on the rear's settings and seems to get right. Something is way out of whack to get oversteer on stock components
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Old 05-03-2013, 03:45 PM   #13
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[QUOTE=Ntmd8r;6498184]Iron Lung Jimmy.... I apply the brakes to slow it down..... to stop the rear from sliding out. And that works.

Tyler... I think it is stock FE4... I am not the first owner, but I got it from a dealer so
not sure if anything was done... but everything else was pristine... so I think nothing was done.[QUOTE]

Assuming is not a fact.
Put it on a lift and ask the dealer to check the suspension parts.
If stock, it's not normal...unless you drive like a maniac on purpuse.


Good luck!
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Old 05-04-2013, 05:18 AM   #14
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thats odd. i wish i had more oversteer. that damn understeer kills me. The suspension is the next thing to be tweeked.
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Old 05-04-2013, 07:20 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ntmd8r View Post
2012 2SS RS L99 A6 FE4
Stock 20" wheels and P Zero tires.
5500 Miles
My daily driver.

My style of driving is called "Spirited".

I have been autocrossing for over 30 years
(with Corvettes, now with 2007 Corvette LS2 Z51, Pfadt Sway bars, Coil-overs, R888 Tires)
I hope that you aren't subconsciously trying to get away with doing what you could do with the R888's (a kind of weenie R-compound tire).

Try a little less rear tire pressure to improve mechanical grip back there. It should at least slow down the transition to oversteer.

Check rear toe, and the condition of any bushings whose compliance would induce toe out under power. Then rear camber.

And there's one other thing not suspension or tire related - the tip in throttle response may be too aggressive, at least it may be too aggressive for your driving style or how close to the edge of grip that you're driving. This is more likely to happen with aftermarket tunes, which overwhelmingly tend to be oriented to maximizing straight line throttle response with little regard for the fine throttle modulation you want when you're using most of your tires' grip laterally.



Quote:
With my spirited driving style, whenever I want to take a corner with gusto
I really have to wait till the car is almost straight after the turn before giving it some gas, otherwise the rearend is coming around to kiss my frontend.

If I merely take a corner too fast, with no acceleration, the rearend starts to slide out, and I have to brake to get rear adhesion.
You really shouldn't have that problem under "maintenance throttle", unless your front sta-bar is disconnected or otherwise inop, or your rear suspension is binding in roll.

In my experience with cars that do not have stability control, adding braking to incipient oversteer tends to loosen the handling still further. Easily by enough to have to dial out some steering lock even if the tail isn't actually sliding - and you have to do this simultaneously with the braking rather than in response to the change in yaw.


Please fix this before you get your new tires.


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Old 05-04-2013, 11:27 AM   #16
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Norm,
thanks so much for your elaborate and technical response.

My previous Camaro was a 2001 A4 (again, daily driver).
I had it shod with BFG KDWII tires (275x40x17) (17x8 rims all around).
With my driving style it handled very well, with only a little oversteer.
Of course, it didn't have anywhere near the power the 2012 has.

So now I want my 2012 to handle the same way.
As I have stated, I do drive aggressively.

I will definitely take care of an alignment to set things up the way I like.
Probably -1.2 front camber and 1/8" toe out in front
and -1.0 camber and zero toe in rear.
If the oversteer continues, I can lessen the toe out in the front a bit.

And I'll try a little less tire pressure in the rear too.

No... I know the R888s are a whole different ball game. I merely mentioned them to indicate that I know about how a car can/should handle.
Over the years I've used Yokohama A008, A008R, A008RII, BFG Comp TA, BFG Comp R1, Hoosier A6, etc., etc., etc. I used to run a road-race Camaro with Kumho 700s.

I expect the move to the Michelin tires will also improve things considerably.

Thanks again

Gary
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Old 05-09-2013, 03:11 PM   #17
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Gary,

When you are in oversteer and lift the car will continue to rotate. When you apply the brakes and the condition improves you are in understeer.

Your V6 was a better balanced car than your V8. The extra weight up front contributes greatly to understeer when braking. The weight shift 'overloads' the front tires. The new FE4 bars are a huge improvement over the old style inboard bars. While there is only 1mm of difference with the rear bar being larger, the location of the droplinks makes the rear far more efficient. Allow me to tweak your alignment setup.

-1.2 front camber and 1/8" toe out in front
and -1.0 camber and zero toe in rear.

Try this in the rear.

Camber -0.50
Toe IN 0.10
Total Toe 0.20

In our Road Course cars depending on the tires and track this is what we run.

Front
Caster 6.00 to 7.00 (you lose caster as you increase camber)
Camber -2.30 to -3.50
Toe OUT 0.25 to 0.50

Rear

Toe IN 0.10
Total Toe IN 0.20
Camber -0.75 to -1.50

In the future the closer you can get to the same size rubber front and rear the more neutral your car will become. We have been running 305/30/19 at all four wheels since 2009. The new Z/28 will deliver with 305/30/19s. The 5th Gen responds exceptionally well to a square setup.
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Old 05-09-2013, 03:20 PM   #18
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Thanks Pete.
I'm going for an alignment tomorrow morning.

I also am going for different tires (I mentioned this earlier), which should provide more
adhesion. But that won't be for a few months.

My 2001 Camaro was a LS1 SS, but yes I expect the weight differential between the 2 years is substantial.

I don't autocross or track this car (I have my 2007 Corvette for that), so it is only my daily driver. But I do like to drive aggressively (as if I was "sort of" on the autocross track) all the time.
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Old 05-09-2013, 03:29 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ntmd8r View Post
Thanks Pete.
I'm going for an alignment tomorrow morning.

I also am going for different tires (I mentioned this earlier), which should provide more
adhesion. But that won't be for a few months.

My 2001 Camaro was a LS1 SS, but yes I expect the weight differential between the 2 years is substantial.

I don't autocross or track this car (I have my 2007 Corvette for that), so it is only my daily driver. But I do like to drive aggressively (as if I was "sort of" on the autocross track) all the time.
I like the way you think
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Old 05-10-2013, 10:17 PM   #20
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Well Shitbuggerdamn... so the alignment guy I took it to says he cant adjust camber in the front.
I take a look... damn... looks like he is right.... no obvious way to do it.

So I come back home, and check on this site/forum... There IS a way !!!!

Well, they can't take me today....

OK... because of my work/play schedule, I now book with my (new) alignment guy place.
He's also my regular "goto" guy.
Sure, we can do it... but I have to wait till next Friday.

Bad me... ASSUMING it would have been like very other car I have owned and had aligned.

Oh well.... it will be addressed next week.


And.... a question.... should I also consider changing the SFC Bushings ?
Recommendations as to brand/product ?
How much effort ?
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Old 05-10-2013, 11:34 PM   #21
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Take his with you for your alignment.


Bush Timing, Alignment and Torque Specs


Do NOT use camber adjusting offset bolts on the Camaro



If you want to put them on your Honda or Subie it is up to you. They are not as strong as the OEM clevis bolts and are absolutely necessary on a 5th Gen Camaro. It is in the

This is the correct way to adjust front camber on the 5th Gen. One the alignment machine with the clevis bolts loose turning the camber screw tighter (Righty Tighty, Lefty Loosy) will push the knuckle away from the strut. Loosening the camber screw allows the knuckle to fall in toward the strut. It is a 10mm 1.5 pitch thread.



Your alignment shop may have a T.O.M.C.A.T. Air-Assisted Multiple Camber Adjustment Tool air bag. It fits between the wheel and the strut and works in the same way as the camber screw. Inflate (Righty Tighty) the bag to push the knuckle away from the strut or deflate (lefty Loosy) the bag to allow the knuckle to fall into the strut. If they don't, they have a guy that can push or pull on the wheel while they tighten it. Never, ever use those lame camber eccentric bolts on a Camaro. EVER!



Anyone that tells you different, have them call me

Pedders foundation as a company is more than just a range of bits, we are Suspension specialists committed to delivering a Pedders Driving Experience. A lowered vehicle should have a full range of alignment adjustments. The Camaro delivers from Chevrolet with a fixed Castor position. The radius arm bolts into round holes with no available adjustment. Front Camber is adjustable from the factory. There is a threaded hole for front Camber Adjustment Bolt / Screw, but no bolt is installed and no part number is listed by Chevrolet. The rear OEM eccentric adjusters for Toe and Camber provide approximately one degree adjustment range. For an alignment specialist, this is unacceptable. You want to get your Camaro perfectly setup. This is what Pedders is all about. Our solution is a set of cadmium plated eXtreme Alignment Bolts. While GM made the hole round for the front Castor Adjustment or lack thereof, they did weld in brackets for an eccentric to work against. Your local Pedders Dealer can create a slot to provide Castor adjustment with Pedders Camaro Alignment Bolts. The kit provides the front Camber screws that GM didn't.



For the 5th Camaro, GM decided to produce the front sub-frame with only a round hole, but they kept the 'fences' for caster adjustment with eccentric bolts just like the Pontiac G8 and Holden Commodore. The slots to allow adjustment were lost in translation. For a performance driver, a vehicle without full alignment adjustment capability feels like driving with one hand tied behind your back. Pedders made the decision to make the Camaro front suspension fully adjustable.

Stock Radius Bush Mounting area with a round hole and adjustment 'fences'.



Step one requires the technician to drill two holes in the bracket.



Step two requires CAREFUL GRINDING. We use the two holes to make the grinding process more accurate while the technician creates a slot. The eccentric that will be used does not reach all the way to the bracket sides so a bit of excess metal is not an issue. The technician can check the clearance with a Pedders Castor Eccentric Bolt as they grind to make sure the fit is Pedders Perfect.



When assembled the Cadmium plated eccentric allows the alignment technician to increase or decrease Castor. A fully Pedderised Camaro with good tires will not require ANY BIAS in the alignment. We can do a road course style alignment and your Camaro will not pull. This is because the Pedders component have made the suspension more stable by reducing excess motion. Should your Camaro be tweaked and develop a pull the same Pedders Castor Eccentric Bolts can be used to create a bias to correct the pull. We strongly recommend that before you alter your alignment due to a pull that you have a qualified technician, because the machine is only as good as the tech, check your tires on a road force balance machine to make certain the pull is not induced by a tire. We will adjust them on the alignment rack. Here is the installed eccentric.



Alignments are Pedders core business so we decided to make the front camber screw part of the Camaro Alignment Bolt Kit. To install the Pedders Front Camber Screw it is essential that you use LocTite Blue. The Camber screw will never bear a load while driving, but we want to make certain they never vibrate out. LocTite Blue is ideal for this.



Pedders Rear Eccentrics are virtually bullet proof with approximately 2 degrees or double the factory adjustment. With the Camaro alignment Kit installed your Camaro can be setup for the drag strip, road course, auto cross or every day flawless driving. Even better, Pedders alignment eccentric bolts carry a unique warranty feature. Should a Pedders eccentric ever fail while you own the vehicle we will replace it. You get a superior alignment, improved driving experience and a life time warranty with Pedders Camaro Alignment Bolt kits.

To get the aggressive alignment we prefer Pedders Full Camaro Alignment Kit is required. They increase the adjustment range by 1 degree or in layman's terms a lot. We achieve this result my moving the eccentric to the outer edge of the bolt. The eccentrics are cut on a water jet, assembled in a jig and welded. This is a time consuming process. To finish the bolts we have them cadmium plated.



Eccentrics have a bad habit of drifting under high loads. We address that with more material. We make our eccentrics out of stock that is much thicker than the OEM bolts. More material means more strength and improved holding power.



We use a thick 'holding' nut and a thin jam nut. Unlike quenched nuts, you can use these again and again.



Taking the performance of your 5th Gen and alignment to the next level requires the use of Pedders Dual Bearing Camber Plates. With the stock front struts or Pedders coilovers you can achieve -2.2 Degrees of front camber. Relieving the upper slot in the strut to allow it to fall in a bit more will get you to -2.5. When running high negative camber it is Mission Critical to check spacing between the inner tire sidewall and the strut or coilover. We use a standard #2 lead pencil as a gauge. If the pencil passes between the tire and the strut or coilover you are good to go. With Pedders Dual Bearing Camber Plates we suggest you run them full in, maxed out for negative camber. Positioning the stut top well in toward the engine improves SAI. Your 5th Gen will drive better. Final adjust the negative camber at the knuckle using the camber adjustment screw.

Maxed out for Negative Camber



Neutral Position i.e. The same position as the OEM Mount.



FE4 / FE5 / ZL1 / Pedderised Hardcore Track Alignment with Appropriate Tires

Front
Caster: Max it out with Pedders Caster Eccentrics
Camber: -3.5 With Pedders Dual Bearing Camber Plates and NO Strut Tower Bar.
Camber : -4.00 With Pedders Dual Bearing Camber Plates and a Strut Tower Bar
Toe: OUT 0.50
Total Toe OUT 1.00

Rear
Camber -0.80
Toe: IN .20

Pedders Full Camaro Alignment Kit and Dual Bearing Cambers Plates are Required.

Bush Timing

Step 1. Lift the car on a two post lift and raise it.

Step 2. Loosen the following bolts/nuts:
Front:
---Inner Control Arm Bushing
---Inner Radius Rod
Rear:
---Trailing Arm Bushings (both ends)
---Toe Rod Bushings (both ends)
---Lower Control Arm Bushings (Inner)
---Upper Control Arm Bushings (Rearward)
---Lower Strut Bushings

Step 3.
Lower the car and drive it around the parking lot SLOWLY and on to the alignment lift.

Step 4.
With the weight of the car on the wheels tighten all of the nuts/bolts to spec.

Step 5.
Align the car at the new ride height.

Alignment




Front and Rear Bolt Torque Values




NOTE: Torque specifications that read XX torque value and XX degrees are usually TTY and require replacement of the bolt, nut or both. If replacement parts are not available from GM the minimum acceptable torque will be those values stated along with a liberal application of a thread locker i.e. LocTite.
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Old 05-12-2013, 07:26 PM   #22
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Wow, Pete.... thanks
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Old 05-13-2013, 07:23 AM   #23
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BOOOOM!

Thats the sounds of Pete throwin down "THE BOOK"
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Old 05-17-2013, 06:19 PM   #24
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So this morning we did the alignment.....

concentrating on the rear mostly....

Original Camber was -0.3 on both sides.
Could only get to -0.7 on both sides.... that's as far as the OEM equipment could go
Original Toe was 0 on both sides
Changed it to 1/16" out on both sides (to get more "grip" in the rear)

For the front
Original Camber was -0.9 on both sides, so we just left it alone
Original Toe was 1/16" in on both sides
Changed it to 1/16" out on both sides.

That seems to have made quite a difference.

New (stickier and wider) tires in a few thousand miles will make a good difference too.

We'll see how it goes for the next while.
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Old 05-24-2013, 10:22 AM   #25
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Sway Bars! Alignment, driving style, and maybe some other things. If you're a vette guy, give me a ring, we can talk about the handling you were used to and how we can get the Camaro there.
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