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Old 05-02-2013, 03:54 PM   #1
Ntmd8r
 
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Severe Oversteer

2012 2SS RS L99 A6 FE4
Stock 20" wheels and P Zero tires.
5500 Miles
My daily driver.

My style of driving is called "Spirited".

I have been autocrossing for over 30 years
(with Corvettes, now with 2007 Corvette LS2 Z51, Pfadt Sway bars, Coil-overs, R888 Tires)

So I do know how a car should handle.

This Camaro is a "beast".

With my spirited driving style, whenever I want to take a corner with gusto
I really have to wait till the car is almost straight after the turn before giving it some gas, otherwise the rearend is coming around to kiss my frontend.

If I merely take a corner too fast, with no acceleration, the rearend starts to slide out, and I have to brake to get rear adhesion.

Usually north american cars have Understeer built in.
But this is severe oversteer.

How about it Suspension guys..... I can't adjust the rear bar on FE4 (I don't think), different bushings ?, alignment ? ...... or ??????

Thanks for any help

(Oh, I do plan to install Michelin PSS tires in a few months... these P Zeros are terrible)
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Old 05-02-2013, 04:07 PM   #2
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what tire pressure are you using?
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Old 05-02-2013, 04:21 PM   #3
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Is it the same with and without TC on? L99 is an auto trans right? Is it down shifting hard?
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Old 05-02-2013, 04:57 PM   #4
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your stock suspension and have oversteer? i am so confused. if your stock and have oversteer either somethings wrong or you cant drive.
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Old 05-02-2013, 05:42 PM   #5
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Mikamaro... 36 lbs
jeremywes... sorry... haven't tried it with TC on.
It is not downshifting at all... just maintaining a good speed around corners.
SPCBA... thanks for your help
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Old 05-02-2013, 05:50 PM   #6
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Its shit tires. I run a 285 front 315 rear. Makes a big difference. You also need to set your camber correctly and go to a nice double adjustable coil-over.

Being you're stock it could be your body roll momentum swinging you around. the cars are definitely setup to plow from the factory unless you're turning super sharp.
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Old 05-02-2013, 05:50 PM   #7
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Your pressure seems okay, and T/C should not matter.

Are you sure you are on stock sway bars? Because you are correct, it should have understeer.

You may consider going to the Pfadt ZL Spec sway bars. They have 3 stiffness adjustment settings front and rear, so you can fine tune the under/over steer to your driving style and tire selection. You also may want to try a more staggered tire setup and put the rubber where you want it.

Best regards,

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Old 05-02-2013, 06:16 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ntmd8r View Post
If I merely take a corner too fast, with no acceleration, the rearend starts to slide out, and I have to brake to get rear adhesion.
This I do not understand. Applying brakes when the back end is trying to come around should make it worse.
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Old 05-02-2013, 06:54 PM   #9
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These cars are known for severe understeer, hence the 1LE package. Something isn't right with you or the car.
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Old 05-02-2013, 07:07 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyg36 View Post
These cars are known for severe understeer, hence the 1LE package. Something isn't right with you or the car.
^^This. The Camaro has never had a particularly good chassis (at least in terms of handling) without shelling out for a 1LE or ZL1. And the tendency of them at the limit is normally toward significant understeer.
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Old 05-02-2013, 09:40 PM   #11
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Iron Lung Jimmy.... I apply the brakes to slow it down..... to stop the rear from sliding out. And that works.

Tyler... I think it is stock FE4... I am not the first owner, but I got it from a dealer so
not sure if anything was done... but everything else was pristine... so I think nothing was done.
FE4 should make it turn better (I expect), and I don't think it is adjustable.

With the new Michelin tires I plan to go with the stock wheels and
285x35 Rear
255x40 Front

And I will make sure I have some camber in the rears with zero toe.

I was just wondering if anyone had any similar action on their car.

Thanks guys, for your input.
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Old 05-03-2013, 02:47 PM   #12
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As everyone has chimed in, these things are prone to understeer. When I set up my car (F/R coilvers, Pfadt Racing ASB's) at maximum stiffness, I do get a little oversteer. Then I just back off on the rear's settings and seems to get right. Something is way out of whack to get oversteer on stock components
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Old 05-03-2013, 04:45 PM   #13
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[QUOTE=Ntmd8r;6498184]Iron Lung Jimmy.... I apply the brakes to slow it down..... to stop the rear from sliding out. And that works.

Tyler... I think it is stock FE4... I am not the first owner, but I got it from a dealer so
not sure if anything was done... but everything else was pristine... so I think nothing was done.[QUOTE]

Assuming is not a fact.
Put it on a lift and ask the dealer to check the suspension parts.
If stock, it's not normal...unless you drive like a maniac on purpuse.


Good luck!
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Old 05-04-2013, 06:18 AM   #14
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thats odd. i wish i had more oversteer. that damn understeer kills me. The suspension is the next thing to be tweeked.
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Old 05-04-2013, 08:20 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ntmd8r View Post
2012 2SS RS L99 A6 FE4
Stock 20" wheels and P Zero tires.
5500 Miles
My daily driver.

My style of driving is called "Spirited".

I have been autocrossing for over 30 years
(with Corvettes, now with 2007 Corvette LS2 Z51, Pfadt Sway bars, Coil-overs, R888 Tires)
I hope that you aren't subconsciously trying to get away with doing what you could do with the R888's (a kind of weenie R-compound tire).

Try a little less rear tire pressure to improve mechanical grip back there. It should at least slow down the transition to oversteer.

Check rear toe, and the condition of any bushings whose compliance would induce toe out under power. Then rear camber.

And there's one other thing not suspension or tire related - the tip in throttle response may be too aggressive, at least it may be too aggressive for your driving style or how close to the edge of grip that you're driving. This is more likely to happen with aftermarket tunes, which overwhelmingly tend to be oriented to maximizing straight line throttle response with little regard for the fine throttle modulation you want when you're using most of your tires' grip laterally.



Quote:
With my spirited driving style, whenever I want to take a corner with gusto
I really have to wait till the car is almost straight after the turn before giving it some gas, otherwise the rearend is coming around to kiss my frontend.

If I merely take a corner too fast, with no acceleration, the rearend starts to slide out, and I have to brake to get rear adhesion.
You really shouldn't have that problem under "maintenance throttle", unless your front sta-bar is disconnected or otherwise inop, or your rear suspension is binding in roll.

In my experience with cars that do not have stability control, adding braking to incipient oversteer tends to loosen the handling still further. Easily by enough to have to dial out some steering lock even if the tail isn't actually sliding - and you have to do this simultaneously with the braking rather than in response to the change in yaw.


Please fix this before you get your new tires.


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Old 05-04-2013, 12:27 PM   #16
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Norm,
thanks so much for your elaborate and technical response.

My previous Camaro was a 2001 A4 (again, daily driver).
I had it shod with BFG KDWII tires (275x40x17) (17x8 rims all around).
With my driving style it handled very well, with only a little oversteer.
Of course, it didn't have anywhere near the power the 2012 has.

So now I want my 2012 to handle the same way.
As I have stated, I do drive aggressively.

I will definitely take care of an alignment to set things up the way I like.
Probably -1.2 front camber and 1/8" toe out in front
and -1.0 camber and zero toe in rear.
If the oversteer continues, I can lessen the toe out in the front a bit.

And I'll try a little less tire pressure in the rear too.

No... I know the R888s are a whole different ball game. I merely mentioned them to indicate that I know about how a car can/should handle.
Over the years I've used Yokohama A008, A008R, A008RII, BFG Comp TA, BFG Comp R1, Hoosier A6, etc., etc., etc. I used to run a road-race Camaro with Kumho 700s.

I expect the move to the Michelin tires will also improve things considerably.

Thanks again

Gary
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Old 05-09-2013, 04:11 PM   #17
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Gary,

When you are in oversteer and lift the car will continue to rotate. When you apply the brakes and the condition improves you are in understeer.

Your V6 was a better balanced car than your V8. The extra weight up front contributes greatly to understeer when braking. The weight shift 'overloads' the front tires. The new FE4 bars are a huge improvement over the old style inboard bars. While there is only 1mm of difference with the rear bar being larger, the location of the droplinks makes the rear far more efficient. Allow me to tweak your alignment setup.

-1.2 front camber and 1/8" toe out in front
and -1.0 camber and zero toe in rear.

Try this in the rear.

Camber -0.50
Toe IN 0.10
Total Toe 0.20

In our Road Course cars depending on the tires and track this is what we run.

Front
Caster 6.00 to 7.00 (you lose caster as you increase camber)
Camber -2.30 to -3.50
Toe OUT 0.25 to 0.50

Rear

Toe IN 0.10
Total Toe IN 0.20
Camber -0.75 to -1.50

In the future the closer you can get to the same size rubber front and rear the more neutral your car will become. We have been running 305/30/19 at all four wheels since 2009. The new Z/28 will deliver with 305/30/19s. The 5th Gen responds exceptionally well to a square setup.
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