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Old 05-14-2013, 04:57 AM   #15
ASH@IPF-TUNING
 
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Hi everybody !

Keith ... please Show me only 1 Diagramm where the drivetrainloss is REALLY measured and 20%+ from the wheelpower ... that is only possible when an eddicurrent retarder break was used and not corrected in the System !!

We have also an eddicurrent break retarder in our dyno ... but the very heavy drum at the medium power of the camaro dont Need any more load for propper reading ... for a 1000PS+ Turbo car we Need the retarder break to get propper boost Levels and to expand the measuring time .. !

the measured camaro had 405 PS at the wheels at 254km/h and 40PS complete drivetrain and gearbox and tire loss .. so together 445PS at the flywheel ... NOT MORE !! Anything else is a lie in the own pocket and only good at bar talks with lots of beer !!

small twin dyno rollers can cause a very big surge loss at the wheels , but then the wheel power is also low !

in this case the gearbox cooler must have nearly the size of the engine cooler to get rid of the heat !

one vehicle that i know with such a big loss was possibly the sherman tank in WWII!

greets ASH@IPF-TUNING
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Old 05-14-2013, 12:45 PM   #16
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Hello Arno,

First off I just want to say I'm not trying to argue of course...I know your a good guy and great at what you do!

I am just confused about the drivetrain loss figures.

Please take a look at this thread. It is a sticky thread which lists dyno numbers for V6s (stock and modified) on this website.

For this purpose, please look at the stock chart.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153186

Now I can't show you a dyno reading of power at the flywheel, as I have never seen one before. But if you notice, every one of these cars is showing around 18% or greater loss at the wheels if you assume stock has 312 HP (which is what it is advertised to be for 2010 and 2011 models) So unless the car actually does not make 312 HP at the flywheel, OR every single dyno is reading lower than actual output (doubtful), I don't see how the drivetrain loss (which to me includes the transmission, driveshaft, rear axle, wheels,tires, etc.) can be less than what the chart is showing.

Again, not trying to argue. Just showing you what we are used to seeing here. It has been said that as a rule of thumb, manuals tend to show 15% loss and autos tend to show 20%.

So are you saying that much of the loss shown on these graphs is due to the dyno rollers themselves, and NOT because of drivetrain loss??
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Old 05-14-2013, 04:22 PM   #17
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Hi guys, just to let you know, I am Arno's second engineer @EDS...


Quote:
Originally Posted by KMPrenger
Just showing you what we are used to seeing here. It has been said that as a rule of thumb, manuals tend to show 15% loss and autos tend to show 20%.
Correct, it is a rule of thumb...nothing less or more... pub science in my eyes...that's what it is.

if you want to have a proper measurement, you cannot estimate half of it, and than state that the result is correct...thats complete guessing nothing else.

but that is the mayor problem with your dyno charst in the US, you cannot compare them and in every gear you will see different results.
the only thing you can use this measuring for, is the compare one single cars gains (e.g. for the benefit of a tuning), when you look at the difference between before and after


what leads to your next question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by KMPrenger
So are you saying that much of the loss shown on these graphs is due to the dyno rollers themselves, and NOT because of drivetrain loss??
No it is NOT, with different rollers you would see a different drivetrain loss value, but also different wheel power, because the flywheel power is always the same.

if the drivetrain loss is higher, the wheelpower would be lower and vice versa... it is an easy equation:

Flywheel_pwr = Wheel_pwr + loss

[edit]: and: loss = cars secific drivetrain loss + "roller loss"(most friction)

so its easy to see what has to happen when the left side is always constant , and the values from the right side differ

hope U understand what we want to say

best regards

Tobi
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Old 05-14-2013, 05:17 PM   #18
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Hi !

i can tell you about our Dynojet Story that we bought for our EDS Tuning and Service Center in Shanghai ...

January 2013 we spend 4 weeks in Shanghai to set up the new delivered LC224 overground dynojet with Eddi current break retarder ...

We asked dynojet for the flywheel-power-testing Option Software from Dynojet and after the Installation we checked some known cars on the dynojet .

1) Buick Regal GS 2.0Turbo ... stock 225PS engine power ... dynojet showed 195PS engine power and much too less torque ....
2) Buick Excelle 1.6Turbo ... stock 180PS engine power .... dynojet showed 160PS engine power ... and much too less torque ...
3) Buick Regal 2.4NA ... stock 175PS engine power ... dynojet showed 145PS ....

So we asked for a new software to get accurate dyno numbers and not that Kind of Bingo Game !

We were connected to the EU Division of dynojet and they send us the EU Version for accurate flywheel power and Trq measurement with 15 sec Extrapolation calculation during the rollout of the negative power loss testing ... and BINGO !!!

All stock cars showed STOCK power and TRQ figures as they were confirmed by the GM factory in Shanghai and we did our Job to develop the power Tuning for the Buick Regal 2.0T and Excelle 1.6T Shanghai Motorshow cars !

So .. the end of the Story .... i cant tell you WHY there are sooo many cars with soooo less RWP dyno figures and soooo much drivetrain loss in % .....

Only to measure the RWP on a dyno seems to be total Nonsens and you can better spend the money for a RWP-dynorun in the next bar with some nice Girls !

A propper flywheel dynorun is also showing the RWP and the complete drivetrainloss ... and together the flywheel power and that seems to be the only way to compare cars , Tuningsystems and enginebuilds !

In my personal opinion every Dyno Owner should ask for the flywheel-option from the dyno manifacturer and test some cars ... then the discussion after some flywheel dynotests will be much smoother then now and MUCH more realistic !! for listening

Greets ASH@IPF-TUNING
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Old 05-14-2013, 05:39 PM   #19
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I'm pretty sure that Buick is not for sale in the US!

Thanks Arno, as always- very instructive and fun to read!
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Old 05-14-2013, 05:58 PM   #20
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Hi !

thanks Keith , you can write something boring ... so nobody reads it ... !!

with a Little more fun ... life is more easy !

on the last pic ... i'm the big guy with the red Pullover ... Tobi is the man in the middle and right side you see our Taiwan technitian Mr. LIN ... good guy !

greets ASH@IPF-TUNING
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Old 05-14-2013, 06:03 PM   #21
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Thanks Tobi and Arno!

Didn't mean to de-rail the thread!
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Old 05-14-2013, 06:05 PM   #22
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Arno, are you still coming back to the U.S. for more tuning sometime this year? Just curious.
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Old 05-14-2013, 06:34 PM   #23
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Hi !

Plan is ... Tobi Comes in June/July .. and i will come October to AZ !

Both sessions 3 weeks !

Greets ASH@IPF-TUNING
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Old 05-15-2013, 01:33 AM   #24
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I would like for you to have a look at my car in October.

John B.
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Old 05-15-2013, 12:19 PM   #25
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Arno, looks like your have the better of the two dates for the AZ visit.
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Old 05-15-2013, 09:04 PM   #26
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Just in case anyone was wondering, the only reason I'd like for Arno to have a bit of time with my car is to see if he could suggest any tweaks. It is fundamentally, and overall, a very solid package.

John B.
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Old 05-16-2013, 12:12 AM   #27
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I'd also like for Arno to check out my car as well. I'd definitely drive down to az to get that opportunity. It would be nice to get more tips with the supercharger. The kit is definitely solid.
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