Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
JUICEDMOTORSPORTS
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Engine | Drivetrain | Powertrain Technical Discussions > Camaro V6 LFX Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-11-2013, 06:18 PM   #18
spyderbuddy


 
spyderbuddy's Avatar
 
Drives: v6 rs inferno orange/inferno orange
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: albany, ga
Posts: 2,602
Ok, Been waiting for this, Seafoamed three vehicle this weekend
A 1998 GMC Sonoma 160,000
A 2001 Pontiac Montana 76,000
And My 2010 Camaro 46,000

Just the Camaro has a Catch Can

We had a lot of Smoke out of the Sonoma & Montana none really out of the Camaro
All three run Better with a slight increase in Gas Mileage
__________________
Ceramic Window Tint By Nicks, MBRP Exhaust tips, GEN5 DIY Virginia Legal DRL Harness, Painted Brake Calipers, Vittesse Throttle Controller, Heritage Grill, Diode Dynamics Led Lighting, Manual Shifter Boot, Paddle Shifters, CNC Throttle Body, Vararam Cold Air Intake, RX Catch Can & Breather, Trunk Black out and Side Grills, Chevorlet door Sills.
spyderbuddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2013, 09:08 PM   #19
JohnnyBfromPeoria

 
JohnnyBfromPeoria's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 LS M6, Black
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 2,041
Spyder, did you change the oil afterwards? I'd be concerned about leak-down past the rings diluting the engine oil.

John B.
__________________
12 LS M6, IPF S/C, ASA GT-5 wheels, VMax PTB
1995 Mitsubishi Montero SR
1987 Dodge Raider Turbo Project
1986 Mitsubishi Montero 2.4l FI Transplant
JohnnyBfromPeoria is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2013, 09:46 PM   #20
spyderbuddy


 
spyderbuddy's Avatar
 
Drives: v6 rs inferno orange/inferno orange
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: albany, ga
Posts: 2,602
Its due to go in for a oil change this week, and btw it said would not hurt the oil. But again it's going in this week.
__________________
Ceramic Window Tint By Nicks, MBRP Exhaust tips, GEN5 DIY Virginia Legal DRL Harness, Painted Brake Calipers, Vittesse Throttle Controller, Heritage Grill, Diode Dynamics Led Lighting, Manual Shifter Boot, Paddle Shifters, CNC Throttle Body, Vararam Cold Air Intake, RX Catch Can & Breather, Trunk Black out and Side Grills, Chevorlet door Sills.
spyderbuddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2013, 09:48 PM   #21
SC2150
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2012 Camaro RS, RX supercharged
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bradenton, FL
Posts: 6,070
We have a LLT with 64k miles on it with a RX catchcan on since nearly day one....absolutely NO intake valve coking.....and we see the results daily.

Yours is about the cleanest I have seen at that mileage except the one, that is how most look.

Here is a link to pictures submitted by techs from every DI engine in the world pretty much (including motorcycles) and with over 12,000 of the RX cans in use there are hundreds of members here that can show the results.

http://www.google.com/search?q=intak...w=2021&bih=875

Take the time to look at these pictures.

99% plus of the valve coking is a direct result of the oil ingestion via the PCV dirty side, and if you use a oil separating catchcan that actually catches and traps all, or nearly all the oil, then you have zero issues (again, hundreds of members here can remove there intake manifolds and show this).

Now, install the average can and 99% of them let 1/2 or more of the oil still pass through (no matter the name brand) so you have only 3-4 on the market that actually do trap all, or nearly all the oil.

If you click on this thread, part way down the page are most of the cans people buy today with cut aways or disassembled to show what is (or is not )inside of them plus a explanation of the testing results of what percentage pulls through most cans and why they do, or don't work well.
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...=265217&page=3

Pretty much the RX, Elite, and Saiku Micchi are the ones that trap all or nearly all (no, Elite does not pay me a commission, I report the actual testing and the results).

In the days of port injection, running a top tier fuel would keep the intake valves (and the area of the port the spray makes contact wife) clean. Look at a shell commercial to see the pictures of a old port injection engine valve run on a cheap fuel VS their techron.

Now with direct injection, no fuel touches the intake valves...only the air charge passes it so there is no difference in running a top tier vs a cheap (all come from the same bulk freighters here at the port of Manatee near us and the end user (shell, mobil, etc.) add the additives before delivery to the station).

So, as long as you have 1-2 qts of oil ingesting through the dirty side of the PCV system, you will always have the severe valve coking we see on ALL DI engines. Audi's V8 does have a secondary port injector to help eliminate the low RPM hesitation inherent with DI, but it only slightly reduces the coking.

You can also see the results of running a RX catchcan vs no can, or even one of the cheap ebay ones (or an expensive billet can with a poor design allowing oil pull through):

Anyone with a LS3/L99, remove your TB and look inside your IM and see what is ingesting. This car came the next day after delivery from the dealer:


Picture of SC and housing using a RX catchcan from day one for 16,000 miles VS a intercooler after 14,000 miles w/no can:









Scouring on pistons from carbon breaking loose:


Oil ingestion causes buildup on the piston rings and ring lands preventing them from moving freely to properly seal...resulting in loss of power and excess oil consumption:



Actual pictures from GM TSB:




Intake from LLT on left w/can from new, right w/out:



On any FI engine, the detonation caused by the oil ingestion results in a good deal less power than the same one with the oil ingestion stopped.

And, for those that delete the PCV systems function, then engine damage and premature wear is the result.

As part of the combustion process there is a good deal of pressure, or "blow by" that gets past the piston rings into the crankcase, and this is made up of several damaging compounds that if not evacuated while still in a gaseous, or suspended state, will condense and settle into the engine oil and on the internal parts when the engine cools down after shut down.

These consist of water, unburnt fuel, abrasive carbon particles (many to small for the oil filter micron size to remove and trap so they continue to circulate with the engine oil wearing your engine prematurely), sulfuric acid (which etches the crank & cam journals and bearing surfaces once they reach a certain PPM) and other damaging hydrocarbons, etc.

A PEM PCV system uses the intake manifold vacuum to evacuate these damaging compounds while the clean side provides filtered metered fresh air to make up for what is evacuated.

Ideally you want filtered fresh air entering one bank of the engine (on the V6 it is the rear of the drivers side valve cover) where it passes the valve train, is pulled down into the crankcase, all the while flushing the damaging compounds out with it while they are still suspended any time the engine is running. They then travel up the passenger side bank, past the valvetrain and out the rear of the passenger side valve cover where the intake manifold vacuum pulls the compounds into the combustion chamber to be burnt and further burnt clean in the catalytic converter. The issue is the oil most pulled in with this.

Now, if you delete this function, or break this flow (by just adding breathers to release pressure or take the clean side and dirty side and run both lines into a single can, you then are only relieving the pressure. Every time the engine is shut down and cools, all these damaging compounds condense and fall into the oil where they cannot be removed without changing your oil and the concentration accumulates and increases with every start up and shutdown. That can shorten engine life by 1/2 to 1/3rd what it would live with proper evacuation.

Also, every street legal gasoline car and light truck sold in the US today has a functioning PCV system that evacuates and flushes the crankcase for long engine life.

ANY deletion or disabling of this function will result in premature wear and is also grounds for any manufacturer to void a warranty when such an important system is disabled.

A proper catchcan system simply installs inline on the dirty side to trap this oil mist causing all the issues and does not effect the evacuation process......but far to often we see those that do not understand this aspect of the PCV system and only think of the obvious...the crankcase pressure.

So, you do NOT want oil in the intake air charge. You do NOT want to delete or disable the PCV systems evacuation process with a separate clean side source and a dirty side. You NEVER want to mix the clean and dirty sides (this defeats the PCV systems function, and you can stop all, or nearly all intake valve coking with one of the few truly functional cathcans on the market.

And there is so much misinformation and misunderstanding of the PCV systems functions, that you do well to study all I have posted here.

:thumnbsup:


SC2150 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2013, 09:56 PM   #22
SC2150
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2012 Camaro RS, RX supercharged
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bradenton, FL
Posts: 6,070
Anyone wanting more actual pictures, etc. just ask....and this is a typical letter/email/message we get from those that do install the RX can:

Hey Tracy, Just wanted to thank you, and everyone at RevXtreme. I bought a catch can from you, for my 2005 CTS. Well since installing it i'm not consuming any oil anymore. I've had a close eye on the oil level since i have installed it and it hasn't used a drop. I don't know how or what that catch can has done to prevent the oil consumption. (I've read your tech tips article and understand the concept of how a catch can work.) I guess i am just baffeled that it something so simple like that could work.

Anyway just wanted to thank you. I was at my last wits end with this car and was about to put it back on the market, after the dealer replaced two motors under warrenty.

I'll be purchasing another catch can from you in the future. I have a 2000 Camaro SS that is getting a turbo as we speak, as a fun project street car.

But thanks again. It was definetly worth the wait.

Gabe Moulden


This customer was lucky that the gummed up ringlands were able to free themselves after adding the can and stopping the oil ingestion....something that we see only app 50% of the time.

A proper catchcan will also eliminate the need for a seafoam or upper induction cleaning ever if installed when new.

We see on average 1-3 MPG improvement with a good can as the detonation caused by the oil ingestion is no longer present so the ECU/PCM can keep the ignition timing at the optimum level.

We have many small fleet owners as customers (AC/plumbing, etc.) that have them installed just for the fuel savings, not for extended engine life.

12 years of manufacturing these and over 12,000 in use around the world.
SC2150 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2013, 10:14 PM   #23
SC2150
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2012 Camaro RS, RX supercharged
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bradenton, FL
Posts: 6,070
Oh, and one last link for info confirming all I have posted for any doubting this from the University of Maine's Engineering department:

http://umaine.edu/met/capstone-proje...arator-team-2/
SC2150 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2013, 11:52 PM   #24
intensifi

 
Drives: '12 2LT Convertible
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Belmont, California
Posts: 1,666
So Tracy in other words you are strongly disagreeing with ASH's assertion that the carbon buildup on the valves is from combustion by products (e.g. carbon soot)???

When I have looked at the pics of other LLT and LFX engines that HAVE NOT had Seafoam or BG 44K treatments, the valves appeared "wet" with oil. That makes me believe the buildup is from the ingested oil, not combustion by products.

But what do I know? I'm an electrical engineer, not a mechanical or chemical engineer.
__________________
Mods: GM Locking Gas Cap, RS License Plate Frame

intensifi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 09:54 AM   #25
SC2150
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2012 Camaro RS, RX supercharged
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bradenton, FL
Posts: 6,070
100% sure. This is my field of expertise for over 38 years, and the oil puddles in the intake show it all. Also, the fuel system evap emmissions only draws in fuel vapors...they burn clean.....but read all in detail and the links to back it all up.

Since they are not allowed to attack the turbo and supercharger solutions we develop this seems their next tactic. But it is pretty embarrassing to be that clueless on something so well documented for so many years by so many (such as the University of Maine study and all the TSB's from all auto manufacturers).

I want no fight, no attacks.....just all do what we do best and offer the most accurate and correct info possible with the documentation to back it up.

There is no place for drama on this or any forum IMHO. The market is huge for all.

SC2150 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 11:54 AM   #26
KMPrenger


 
KMPrenger's Avatar
 
Drives: 16 SS Camaro, 06 Colorado
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Jefferson City, Missouri
Posts: 11,844
Quote:
Originally Posted by SC2150 View Post
100% sure. This is my field of expertise for over 38 years, and the oil puddles in the intake show it all. Also, the fuel system evap emmissions only draws in fuel vapors...they burn clean.....but read all in detail and the links to back it all up.

Since they are not allowed to attack the turbo and supercharger solutions we develop this seems their next tactic. But it is pretty embarrassing to be that clueless on something so well documented for so many years by so many (such as the University of Maine study and all the TSB's from all auto manufacturers).

I want no fight, no attacks.....just all do what we do best and offer the most accurate and correct info possible with the documentation to back it up.

There is no place for drama on this or any forum IMHO. The market is huge for all.

But yet you can never see, that you are the one many times that cause it by saying crap like this. If you want to avoid the fights, then don't start them.

PLEASE just stick to the information you want to provide and dont START THE DRAMA.

Now back to the topic at hand. This is interesting stuff.
__________________
2016 Camaro 1SS - 8-speed - NPP - Black bowties
2010 Camaro 1LT V6 (Sold. I will miss her!)

Last edited by KMPrenger; 06-12-2013 at 12:06 PM.
KMPrenger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 12:45 PM   #27
911medic

 
911medic's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 SIM 2LT/1970 Camaro
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Near Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 1,575
Yes, everyone, please stay on-topic.

I realize that threads like these tend to inevitably lead to discussion of what the cause of the intake coking is, and the validity and effectiveness of the available solutions or preventions.

I don't mind such discussions, but we're veering into the territory of accusations of posting intentionally misleading information in an effort to discredit a business competitor.

That kind of crap has no place in this thread, and will be reported.

For those of you reading this and other similar threads, as you read the information posted by some very knowledgeable folks here, take some of what's said with a grain of salt and use your judgement in assessing their positions and perspectives on the topic.

That said, personally, I believe there's some validity in both theorized causes being discussed here: 1) PCV-related vapors, and 2) reversion (which is the term for combustion chamber by-products fouling the not-quite-completely closed intake valves).

I think both contribute. To what extent, I don't know, and won't try to argue with those that claim they do.

But I do know that there's really only one of the two that I can do anything about.

Back to the topic at hand, I intend to Seafoam my engine within the next couple of days. Not sure how soon after I'll have time to tear down the intake again and check for the effectiveness of the Seafoam treatment. I need to do it on a day where I have time to manually clean the valves, if they still require it, because I don't know when I'll have time to tear it down for a third time. I'd like to kill two birds with one tear down.
__________________
All bleeding stops eventually -- 2012 2LT Auto w/sunroof -- My journal thread
Roto-Fab Intake & W/W Relocate Kit -- ADM Race Scoop -- Dynomax VT Axle-Back Exhaust -- Vitesse Throttle Controller
RX Catch Can -- Drake Bowtie Delete -- JacFab Radio Face Cover -- LED Fog Lights -- LED Dome/Trunk/Plate Lights -- Gen5DIY Dash ABL -- Diode Dynamics Cupholder Lighting
Wishlist: ACS T5 Splitter -- Hood Vent Mod -- Footwell/Door Pull/Homelink Button Lighting
911medic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 01:24 PM   #28
intensifi

 
Drives: '12 2LT Convertible
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Belmont, California
Posts: 1,666
Warning: Thought experiment ahead. I have no scientific/engineering proof whatsoever.

It strikes me that if there are combustion by-products making their way back out to the intake valve area due to partially open intake valves during the exhaust purge that the same by-products would be sucked back into the cylinder on the next downstroke due to the vacuum created.

But if the intake valve area was "wet" with condensed oil vapor, then the combustion by-products would have something to stick to and would not ALL be sucked back in.

If true, this sounds like a perfectly vicious circle that would account for all the buildup AND support both positions of our learned co-contributors.

Also if true the solution would be to avoid the condensed oil vapors in the first place.

Lastly a chemical analysis of the oil in the catch can versus that captured from the walls of an intake port would speak volumes as to the relative contribution of each "source".
__________________
Mods: GM Locking Gas Cap, RS License Plate Frame

intensifi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 03:15 PM   #29
KMPrenger


 
KMPrenger's Avatar
 
Drives: 16 SS Camaro, 06 Colorado
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Jefferson City, Missouri
Posts: 11,844
Quote:
Originally Posted by SC2150 View Post
Have you EVER seen him come in one of our catchcan threads before? I know you are there all the time right with him/them, but look back at the post. I am in none on his threads, have asked time and again to please let us alone....so no, I will not go into his threads or interfere in any of his promotions, but this was started by the OP and our product and he came in and interfered. I didn't report it like I was told to do as I just want no more drama and no attacks direct or indirect.
Taking this to PM. Tracy check your messages soon.
__________________
2016 Camaro 1SS - 8-speed - NPP - Black bowties
2010 Camaro 1LT V6 (Sold. I will miss her!)
KMPrenger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 04:12 PM   #30
911medic

 
911medic's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 SIM 2LT/1970 Camaro
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Near Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 1,575
Quote:
Originally Posted by SC2150 View Post
On the subject, the catchcan is installed inline on the dirty side and the RX can has a one way checkvalve, so no oil can enter through reversion. All oil comes from the crankcase vapors.
If I'm using the wrong terminology, I apologize. The "reversion" I'm referring to can best be explained by this description I found online:
Quote:
Reversion is simply the exhaust gases momentarily flowing backwards during the overlap phase of the camshaft at low cycling rates. During the overlap phase the engine is on the exhaust stroke and the piston is pushing out the last of the exhaust gases. Prior to reaching top dead center the intake valve begins to open. At low cycling rates the intake charge and the exiting exhaust pulse have yet created any momentum. Thus the piston pushes some spent exhaust gas into the intake manifold.
I'm not talking about PCV gases or oil reversion, I'm saying there's combustion reversion coming back onto the intake valves directly from the cylinder, as described above, possibly causing some of the deposits.

I am thoroughly convinced all of the oil in my manifold came in via the PCV system, and not via reversion (as I'm defining it).
__________________
All bleeding stops eventually -- 2012 2LT Auto w/sunroof -- My journal thread
Roto-Fab Intake & W/W Relocate Kit -- ADM Race Scoop -- Dynomax VT Axle-Back Exhaust -- Vitesse Throttle Controller
RX Catch Can -- Drake Bowtie Delete -- JacFab Radio Face Cover -- LED Fog Lights -- LED Dome/Trunk/Plate Lights -- Gen5DIY Dash ABL -- Diode Dynamics Cupholder Lighting
Wishlist: ACS T5 Splitter -- Hood Vent Mod -- Footwell/Door Pull/Homelink Button Lighting
911medic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 08:28 PM   #31
SC2150
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2012 Camaro RS, RX supercharged
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bradenton, FL
Posts: 6,070
Quote:
Originally Posted by 911medic View Post
If I'm using the wrong terminology, I apologize. The "reversion" I'm referring to can best be explained by this description I found online:
I'm not talking about PCV gases or oil reversion, I'm saying there's combustion reversion coming back onto the intake valves directly from the cylinder, as described above, possibly causing some of the deposits.

I am thoroughly convinced all of the oil in my manifold came in via the PCV system, and not via reversion (as I'm defining it).
Reversion occurs with every engine and the severity depends on the cam profile and is worse at high RPM's. In fact, if you search, there is a youtube video from 8-9 years ago showing an F1 car at WOT on a dyno and the reversion cloud of fuel is 2-3" above the injection stacks.

Most are not aware that reversion is also why when a valve drops in one cylinder (or other part failure) you commonly see parts and damage in most others from the reversion pulse throwing pieces back and forth.

On the exhaust ports on our big alky motors (.800 plus lift cam) we mill in antireversion grooves around each port to minimize the effect. It is also why if you have a vacuum gauge on your car at idle and deceleration you will see 18-22" plus of vacuum, but at WOT zero.

Excellent observation, but it has no effect on valve coking as any measurable amount of fuel would actually reduce the coking issue (top tier fuels like Shell, etc. on a port injection engine keep valves looking like new for 100K plus miles where a DI engine has no fuel passing or touching the intake valves).

Now, if you had a oil burner with wore out cylinder bores and rings you could see oil pushed back to the intake valves and the IM from reversion....but were talking relatively new engines on this forum, and the proof that adding a proper can like the RX, SM, or Elite when new, you find zero, or near zero deposits of any kind on the valves.

The oil is easy to see where it originates from by just looking in any catchcan and seeing as it is installed inline from the crankcase to the intake manifold. If it stops the oil then no oil will be present in the intake manifold itself (easy to see with a LLT...remove the plenum). Remove the can and see it coat with oil again.

SC2150 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2013, 08:39 AM   #32
911medic

 
911medic's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 SIM 2LT/1970 Camaro
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Near Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 1,575
(And this is directed at me, as much as anybody else)

Seafoam treatment done yesterday. Lots of smoke, especially during the "spirited driving" afterward. It was embarrassing.

Followed the method for the LLT (posted here), but had to modify it a bit during the Deep Creep/Seafoam Spray step, as the LFX doesn't have the port that the DIY shows being used in the "Optional 2" step. Will post pics later of what I did as a workaround.

I did the full oil/gas/intake treatment, and will change oil probably tomorrow or the next day.

Tear down number 2: probably Saturday. Will take pics.

Also, going to investigate the layout of the IM a bit. I know it's got a divider between the two banks of intake runners, but I'm curious if it goes all the way to the back of the IM. If it's continuous from the TB to the rear of the IM, using the brake booster vacuum line to add Seafoam really probably only treats the driver's side bank of cylinders. If so, spraying the aerosol Seafoam from the front of the intake may be the only really effective way to clean the passenger side bank.

UPDATE: Further discussion of the layout of the IM and the effectiveness of using Seafoam via the brake booster vacuum line can be found in this post.

Oh, and I also sprayed my MAF sensor with some MAF cleaner while I was under the hood. Didn't look visibly dirty, but the electrodes are hard to see as they're contained in a housing with openings that aren't big enough for close inspection.

More to come...
__________________
All bleeding stops eventually -- 2012 2LT Auto w/sunroof -- My journal thread
Roto-Fab Intake & W/W Relocate Kit -- ADM Race Scoop -- Dynomax VT Axle-Back Exhaust -- Vitesse Throttle Controller
RX Catch Can -- Drake Bowtie Delete -- JacFab Radio Face Cover -- LED Fog Lights -- LED Dome/Trunk/Plate Lights -- Gen5DIY Dash ABL -- Diode Dynamics Cupholder Lighting
Wishlist: ACS T5 Splitter -- Hood Vent Mod -- Footwell/Door Pull/Homelink Button Lighting

Last edited by 911medic; 06-22-2013 at 05:04 PM.
911medic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2013, 10:27 AM   #33
Skexies
Nobody of Interest
 
Skexies's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 2LT/RS A6 'vert "Ra"
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Dallas
Posts: 47
well, to combat this... I'm taking my own approach.

I'm adding a Snow Performance Stage 2 water/alch injection (MAF type).

In addition, I'm adding a catch can. I like the RX check valve but I wish it had a neet-o multistage filter employing something like Elmer W. Bush's patent US 4089309 A or to a lesser degree the Mishimoto's 40 micron bronze filter.
Skexies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2013, 12:13 PM   #34
RedVictory
Luv my LS3
 
RedVictory's Avatar
 
Drives: Summit White 2010 2SS/RS M6 LS3
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: East Coast
Posts: 300
I seafoam all my cars but some validation would be nice so I know im not wasting my money and time.

Lets see some valve pics.
RedVictory is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.