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Old 07-14-2013, 08:24 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Supercharged SS View Post
Without a stand alone fuel system or a bigger in tank set up I would say you're about maxed out with that 100.
Why? My FP is a solid 63 plus, my inj duty cycle is plenty low so they can compensate some if fp does start to drop a little. I'm more concerned with what the motor can take and what the EGTs might look like with my stock cam not having alot of exhaust capabilities.
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Old 07-14-2013, 10:13 AM   #77
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I think the wet kits cool the IATs more than dry kits but I don't think I would spray a wet kit pre blower.

I see people say not to spray a wet shot pre blower and to use a dry kit. But you read Zex site and they say..

Q: What is better, a “wet” or “dry” kit?

A: It all depends on the application. A "wet" kit is ideal for both normally aspirated applications as well as forced induction applications. It can require a little bit more installation time than a "dry" kit, but is easier to tune if greater than stock HP settings are to be experimented with. A "dry" kit is excellent for normally aspirated combinations that have a return style fuel system. They are very easy to install and are a great "first time" nitrous system. It is not recommended that "dry" systems be used on forced induction engines.


And on the Nitrous Outlet site they sell a Wet kit for the Magnacharger that sprays pre blower..

http://nitrousoutlet.com/efi-wet-nit...plate-kit.html
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Old 07-15-2013, 11:04 AM   #78
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I never sprayed pre blower. My concern would be the fuel not being completely atomized. Not saying you can't, just saying to do a good deal of research before you try it.

I do know a decent sized dry kit will require more injector size and alot more tuning and such. A wet kit and an LNC2000 and you can tune your computer for best performance without spraying then adjust your box and jets for best performance on the spray.
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Old 07-15-2013, 11:45 AM   #79
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Another thing to be careful of is the AFR. Nitrous has a different stoich than air, as in, if you were running 100% nitrous and no air you would need to see about 7:1 AFR. There are some online calculators and such that you enter your hp on motor and your shot size and your fuel type and they will tell you about what AFR to run. You might be surprised. High 10's AFR on a 100 shot, and even high 9's AFR on a 200 or so shot are not that uncommon. If you are spraying a 200 shot and are at 11.0 AFR you are likely lean. People not adjusting their AFR as they increase their shot size, and continue to look for an AFR in the 11's, account for many of the lean nitrous backfires and detonation catastrophic failures.
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Old 07-18-2013, 07:19 PM   #80
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My AFR is on the fat side right now 10.7/11.2. So best would be to just start with a 50 jet and go big on the fuel and adjust from there? Not really looking to add a lot of power as much as use it to cool the IAT's some. already using meth but still getting to hot. Only using a 30m/70w mix.

Do you know how to pull timing in the tune? Do I just pull 2 degrees thru the whole table?
You can do it that way or just pull timing only after a certain rpm and load. Datalog a run and if you have a window switch set to start spraying at say 3000 rpm then you start pulling timing in that row/column not before. Loot at where you are in the grams/cylinder under WOT and pull timing there no need to pull timing everywhere but you can if you don't know the before mentioned info.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dan0617 View Post
Another thing to be careful of is the AFR. Nitrous has a different stoich than air, as in, if you were running 100% nitrous and no air you would need to see about 7:1 AFR. There are some online calculators and such that you enter your hp on motor and your shot size and your fuel type and they will tell you about what AFR to run. You might be surprised. High 10's AFR on a 100 shot, and even high 9's AFR on a 200 or so shot are not that uncommon. If you are spraying a 200 shot and are at 11.0 AFR you are likely lean. People not adjusting their AFR as they increase their shot size, and continue to look for an AFR in the 11's, account for many of the lean nitrous backfires and detonation catastrophic failures.
I'm going to have to call BS on this unless you can explain it better or post some links. The nitrous in nitrous oxide is just a buffer it's the oxygen that is being used so it doesn't mater if it gets it from the atmosphere or n20 it' still oxygen.

I am spraying 250 right now with A/F in the mid 11's with a goal of 11.8-12.2 and soon to be 300 shot
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Old 07-18-2013, 08:20 PM   #81
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No bs. Trust me. Www.yellowbullet.com. Click on the forum link, Search on there. 250 shot and 11's AFR is lean. Nitrous has more oxygen molecules per volume than air. The more of your power that comes from nitrous the lower the AFR needs to be. Up to a 150 shot on big motor you are likely fine, since n/a you could run 12.7:1 but you spray and run 11.5:1. But going up in the 200's you are getting borderline. Lean but a forged motor might survive. Read the plugs and you should see what I mean.

You spray a 300 on 12:1 pump gas and ill bet you have trouble finding any spark plugs that won't melt. Richen up to 10:1 and plugs won't melt and it will make as much, if not more power. 10:1 won't be rich because your wideband is calibrated in air but you are adding a substance that has more oxygen molecules per volume than air.
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Old 07-18-2013, 08:43 PM   #82
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http://www.nitrousforum.com/forums/a...php/t-738.html

http://www.robietherobot.com/nitrousjetcalculator.htm

http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/air-...up-106850.html

http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=46318
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Old 07-18-2013, 11:59 PM   #83
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I was spraying two 300hp foggers into a small block ford with a a/f ratio of 11.6 w/o a problem for years.

first kit came on soon as I let off the t-brake, the second .16 of a second after that. I was running VP C23 thou, no pump gas
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Old 07-19-2013, 03:01 PM   #84
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I was spraying two 300hp foggers into a small block ford with a a/f ratio of 11.6 w/o a problem for years.

first kit came on soon as I let off the t-brake, the second .16 of a second after that. I was running VP C23 thou, no pump gas
I don't know the setup but I'm guessing retarded timing and the cool burn of the race fuel kept it out of detonation. I'd bet an AFR of 10:1 would have made more power. Unless it was near 1000 hp without the spray.

On my nitrous cars I have always made more power and higher 1/4 mile mph with the AFR gauge reading just about what it calculates out to by the formulas in the links in the post above. I always used motor AFR of 12.7 and nitrous NFR of 6.0. If spraying a boosted motor I use motor AFR of 11.7. If running E10 and gauge is set up for it, then boost AFR of 11.2 and NFR of 5.5. It always works, never a backfire or melted plug since I started calculating target AFR on spray this way and power has always been higher than just targeting an 11.5.

On a smaller shot you can get away with a NFR of 7:1.

These numbers are for the calculation. You aren't to run an AFR of 6 or 7 to 1. You would only run that if you were running all nitrous and no air.
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Old 07-19-2013, 05:12 PM   #85
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dan0617,

Im going to respectfully say that you are probably not understanding some of the things you are reading. The tech info you are providing is no where close to how things are. I want to touch base on this in detail but it is 5.11 pm and we are trying to close shop. I am making this post so that I can find my way back here next week to provide proper technical information and help you understand some of what you may be reading and trying to repeat.

I have not looked at your links but I can tell you.. Don't believe everything you read. Have a great weekend. Talk to you next week. :-)
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Old 07-19-2013, 11:21 PM   #86
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I would like a good tech explanation. Please look at those links and help me understand how to calculate what afr to see on my gauge if the formulas in the links are wrong. There are some pretty experienced guys and vendors on there.

If i understand correctly, I understand that the more of your power that comes from nitrous the lower the AFR on the wideband gauge needs to be. I understand calculating it from how much of the power comes from nitrous compared to how much comes from motor is a fairly accurate way I figure it without getting into weights. I know my plugs look good if I use this formula, and it seems on smaller shots you can just target 11.5 and be ok.

If this is way off base then let me know please

As a side note, if I ran an engine on 100% nitrous and no air at all, what fuel ratio would I want to see on a gauge that was calibrated in fresh air?
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Old 07-20-2013, 05:46 AM   #87
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I would like a good tech explanation. Please look at those links and help me understand how to calculate what afr to see on my gauge if the formulas in the links are wrong. There are some pretty experienced guys and vendors on there.

If i understand correctly, I understand that the more of your power that comes from nitrous the lower the AFR on the wideband gauge needs to be. I understand calculating it from how much of the power comes from nitrous compared to how much comes from motor is a fairly accurate way I figure it without getting into weights. I know my plugs look good if I use this formula, and it seems on smaller shots you can just target 11.5 and be ok.

If this is way off base then let me know please

As a side note, if I ran an engine on 100% nitrous and no air at all, what fuel ratio would I want to see on a gauge that was calibrated in fresh air?
With no air only 100% nitrogen your car would not run period. Oxygen is needed for combustion.

The nitrogen in N2O is not being used for combustion only the oxygen that is being broken free from the N20 molecule gets used for combustion along with fuel. The nitrogen comes out your tailpipe.

Nitrous, superchargers or turbos all just add more air into the cylinder. Your motor is an air pump.
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Old 07-20-2013, 08:51 AM   #88
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With no air only 100% nitrogen your car would not run period. Oxygen is needed for combustion.

The nitrogen in N2O is not being used for combustion only the oxygen that is being broken free from the N20 molecule gets used for combustion along with fuel. The nitrogen comes out your tailpipe.

Nitrous, superchargers or turbos all just add more air into the cylinder. Your motor is an air pump.
What you are saying about nitrogen I agree with. Just like everything else in freah air goes out the tailpipe, everything else in nitrous goes out the tailpipe. I totally agree. I'm not talking about the nitrogen at all. I didn't say 100% nitrogen. I asked 100% nitrous.

Nitrous oxide doesn't add more air, as you said above. It adds more oxygen. It adds more oxygen per pound than air adds.

In my understanding, an n/a motor makes best power at say 12.7 pounds of air to 1 pound of fuel. Hence 12.7:1 AFR. If that same engine was fed all nitrous oxide and no air at all, it would make best power at around 6 pounds of nitrous oxide to 1 pound of fuel, 6.0:1. Per pound, nitrous oxide has more oxygen than fresh air.

Now, the engine is running on fresh air AND nitrous oxide. That is why I use the equation in the links posted above to figure out what AFR to see on the gauge. The amount of air going in needs to be at 12.7:1 and the amount of nitrous going in needs to be at 6:1 and its all blended together and burnt before the 02 sensor and everything but the oxygen goes out the tailpipe as you stated. So i figure out by an equation what to see on the AFR gauge. I use the hp from motor and hp from nitrous equations as I don't have the equipment to weigh the nitrous and the air being burnt over a period of time and figure it that way.

Now that I'm spraying a boosted car I use 11.7 for motor Ratio and 6.0 for nitrous ratio.

And now because my gauge is calibrated for the E10 that I run, I use 11.2 for motor ratio and 5.5 for nitrous oxide ratio.

That said, my plugs look great at 11.2:1 when on E10 fuel and boost alone, and they look great at 10.3 on boost and a 125 shot.

When I had my vette I was running 9.7:1 when spraying and plugs looked perfect. On that setup alot more of the power came from nitrous oxide in comparison to air than on my camaro. On that car I once doubted all this and started to target 11.5:1. Even with timing back 2 degrees per 50 shot and super cold plugs, I melted the plugs and lean detonated bad. I fixed it and went back to 9.7:1 and all was good again.

Right or wrong, i do know my spark plugs always look great on every nitrous car I've seen done this way so I know the motor is happy.
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Old 07-20-2013, 12:11 PM   #89
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Not sure about the formula but what seems logical to me is the following:


Air contains about 20% oxygen and nitrous oxide looks to be about 33% given that it has two parts nitrogen one part oxygen so one third or 33% . But to me that is mostly irrelevant because how much oxygen is in the cylinder is what would matter regardless of how it got there. Important part is to have enough fuel to burn all the oxygen or at least most of it.


Again I don't know the math but say the valve opens for one second and 10lbs of air enter the motor that would be 8lbs of nitrogen and roughly 2lbs of oxygen. If you want an A/F of 12.7 you would need .157lbs of fuel. Now if you introduced 1lb of nitrous oxygen then you would be introducing .66lb of nitrogen and .33lb of oxygen. Now you have 2.33lbs of oxygen in the motor so if you still wanted to stay at 12.7 A/F you would need .183lbs of fuel. If instead of nitrous oxide you boosted the motor to get 11.65lbs of air you would get 2.33lbs of oxygen so you would still need .183lbs of fuel.

Bottom line, I just know I want the A/F where I want it regardless of how oxygen came to be in the motor. The nitrogen in nitrous oxide is just a buffer in my book.
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Old 07-20-2013, 01:31 PM   #90
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Your thought and logic is correct but you are thinking oxygen to fuel ratio. But your gauge is showing air to fuel ratio. It is calibrated in fresh air not in pure oxygen.

This is hard to explain, but, I think what you are saying is correct and would give the motor the fuel it needs in your examples but because the AFR gauge is calibrated in fresh air, feeding the engine oxygen from any other source than fresh air will change the gauge accuracy. The equation I use makes up for that.

If just reading plugs to see if engine is getting enough fuel the equation and calculation are not needed. If you could calibrate gauge in the exact mix of nitrous oxide and air being used, the equation and calculation would not be needed.
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Old 07-20-2013, 05:45 PM   #91
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I thought you or I might be misunderstanding the difference between Nitrous:Fuel ratio vs Air:Fuel ratio but your last statement isn't about that at all.

I thought the O2 sensor picked up the oxygen content without discerning the nitrogen or other elements in air. I'll have to do some reading on Oxygen sensors and how they work.
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Old 07-20-2013, 07:09 PM   #92
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The idea of using nitrous has crossed my mind lately. But as someone who isn't well versed in aaaaaaaand like a lot of you guys have already said, all people ever hear is the negatives.

So I was thinking about jumping on the Zex kit that RDP is running a special on. Is there anything else I would need?

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=305828

I don't plan on running more than a 75 shot. Maybe 100 if I get crazy. But it's mainly just to have a little more fun with from time to time.

Now as far as the tune goes. If I'm understanding correctly you need to pull timing. Now wouldn't this negativly effect the car on a day to day basis? I mean your power off nitrous would be less due to the timing being pulled?

I'm pretty new to the idea of nitrous so I'm trying to understand. I've done a little reading but there is A LOT of info.
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Old 07-20-2013, 07:32 PM   #93
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The idea of using nitrous has crossed my mind lately. But as someone who isn't well versed in aaaaaaaand like a lot of you guys have already said, all people ever hear is the negatives.

So I was thinking about jumping on the Zex kit that RDP is running a special on. Is there anything else I would need?

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=305828

I don't plan on running more than a 75 shot. Maybe 100 if I get crazy. But it's mainly just to have a little more fun with from time to time.

Now as far as the tune goes. If I'm understanding correctly you need to pull timing. Now wouldn't this negativly effect the car on a day to day basis? I mean your power off nitrous would be less due to the timing being pulled?

I'm pretty new to the idea of nitrous so I'm trying to understand. I've done a little reading but there is A LOT of info.
For a shot of 125 or less you can go by the Zex recommended jets and be good on AFR and not worry about the conversation we are having on this thread. I put in an LNC 2000 Lingenfelter box for timing retard and I love it. It is plug and play and I have it set to only retard timing when I hit the nitrous switch. Have someone like Jannetty do a tune for you when on motor but tune the trans (if its an auto) for the extra power. You will love it. Check on fueling, stock pump might be ok, but consider a ZL1 pump and ADM FPCM.
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Old 07-20-2013, 07:41 PM   #94
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Great thanks for that info!

I'll look into that lingenfelter box
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Old 07-20-2013, 07:45 PM   #95
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I thought you or I might be misunderstanding the difference between Nitrous:Fuel ratio vs Air:Fuel ratio but your last statement isn't about that at all.

I thought the O2 sensor picked up the oxygen content without discerning the nitrogen or other elements in air. I'll have to do some reading on Oxygen sensors and how they work.
Yeah, I knew we weren't on the same wavelength for a post or 2. I have spent probably 1000 hours researching and tuning nitrous (and rebuilding after screwing up LOL) but that doesn't mean I'm exactly right here. This is what works for me and my setups.

If I understand correctly the AFR gauge uses the 02 content from the fresh air calibration versus the 02 left over after combustion and determines an AIR to fuel ratio as what it was as it entered the engine. Once you change the oxygen delivery method to something that has more or less 02 content per weight than air does, the gauge becomes inaccurate. I really believe this is why there are alot of lean backfires and detonation going on when people look at their gauge and think they are fine.

I apologize for not starting with the above paragraph. I am not the best with getting my thoughts out of my head and into words. Looking back I knew what I said but I didn't explain it well enough for anyone else to know!

Don't get me wrong, I think most street setups and small shots are fine and likely even spot on with out of the box jetting and 11.5 to 1 afr's, but when the shot gets big or you start running nitrous along with boost the fact that the AFR gauge is now inaccurate gets overlooked. IMO you have to use the equation like I do or a more thorough weight equation and figure out what the AFR gauge should say, run it a pass, and read the plugs for the final answer.
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Old 07-20-2013, 07:47 PM   #96
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Great thanks for that info!

I'll look into that lingenfelter box
Nice looking car!
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Old 07-20-2013, 07:53 PM   #97
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Nice looking car!
Thanks!

So just so I'm clear. With that lingenfelter box I wound need to retune the Carmelite that small of a shot? That box should take care of the timing retard? How spot on should that kit get my AF ratios? I don't wanna run lean.
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Old 07-20-2013, 08:03 PM   #98
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Thanks!

So just so I'm clear. With that lingenfelter box I wound need to retune the Carmelite that small of a shot? That box should take care of the timing retard? How spot on should that kit get my AF ratios? I don't wanna run lean.
You don't need a retune with the Lingenfelter box it's just a suggestion for you current NA setup. The box will pull the necessary timing when activated. As far as fuel goes most of the times the recommended jets are on the rich side for safety.
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Old 07-20-2013, 08:07 PM   #99
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Awesome. Thanks both of you for the info. Definitely helped answer some questions and put my mind at ease
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Old 07-28-2013, 10:27 PM   #100
SRT10KLLR

 
Drives: 2010 Camaro 2SS/RS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitro Dave View Post
dan0617,

Im going to respectfully say that you are probably not understanding some of the things you are reading. The tech info you are providing is no where close to how things are. I want to touch base on this in detail but it is 5.11 pm and we are trying to close shop. I am making this post so that I can find my way back here next week to provide proper technical information and help you understand some of what you may be reading and trying to repeat.

I have not looked at your links but I can tell you.. Don't believe everything you read. Have a great weekend. Talk to you next week. :-)
Dave
Bump for the info.
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