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Old 06-04-2013, 11:11 AM   #51
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Is your 1998 Z28 a lesser car?
Yes, when it comes to being a Z28. It's decently fast but I wouldn't track it as it came stock. I enjoy my car but that doesn't mean it was built in honor of the Z/28 heritage.
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Old 06-04-2013, 11:43 AM   #52
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Except that every "performance" vehicle in the Chevrolet stable during the 80's & 90's used "Zxx" nomenclature. Considering the slash was ditched in 1982, then it's quite incorrect to state the 4th gen was a Z28 in name only. There are several people, Scott Settlemire included, who would easily be able to usurp that comment.
The slash was dropped in 1973
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Old 06-04-2013, 11:45 AM   #53
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Yes, when it comes to being a Z28. It's decently fast but I wouldn't track it as it came stock. I enjoy my car but that doesn't mean it was built in honor of the Z/28 heritage.
Why not? You realize there are many people who used their Z28's just as they came from the factory in SCCA racing, right? Just check out Sam Strano and Solo II, for instance. One didn't need a 1LE to race their vehicle -- and win. There's also the Camaro-Mustang Challenge series, etc. Just because it was "just" another Camaro model rather than some "special" option doesn't make it any less commendable, especially if we put it into the context of its competition from that time frame.
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Old 06-04-2013, 11:46 AM   #54
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The slash was dropped in 1973
Fair enough. My "expertise" doesn't go past 1982, so I steer clear of trying to talk authoritatively about 1st and 2nd gens.
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Old 06-04-2013, 11:48 AM   #55
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Yes, when it comes to being a Z28. It's decently fast but I wouldn't track it as it came stock. I enjoy my car but that doesn't mean it was built in honor of the Z/28 heritage.
I don't agree with you, sorry. How old are you if you don't mind me asking? I'm not trying to be negative or sarcastic just trying to see what era you grew up in. I'm 28. So the heritage for me starts with the Z28 which you currently own. I can't comment on the earlier generations.

It has to be hard for you to drive a car that doesn't honor the Z28 name. Why do you own it? You choose it for a reason.
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Old 06-04-2013, 12:00 PM   #56
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Why not? You realize there are many people who used their Z28's just as they came from the factory in SCCA racing, right? Just check out Sam Strano and Solo II, for instance. One didn't need a 1LE to race their vehicle -- and win. There's also the Camaro-Mustang Challenge series, etc. Just because it was "just" another Camaro model rather than some "special" option doesn't make it any less commendable, especially if we put it into the context of its competition from that time frame.
Maybe my car is more tired than I realized. If I wasn't putting so much money in my Chevelle, I would fix the Z28.

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I don't agree with you, sorry. How old are you if you don't mind me asking? I'm not trying to be negative or sarcastic just trying to see what era you grew up in. I'm 28. So the heritage for me starts with the Z28 which you currently own. I can't comment on the earlier generations.

It has to be hard for you to drive a car that doesn't honor the Z28 name. Why do you own it? You choose it for a reason.
I'm 23. I grew up with it and its the car that got me interested in Camaros.

I drive it because my Chevelle isn't done and I still think its a good car, just not in the way a Z/28 is.
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Old 06-04-2013, 12:07 PM   #57
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Maybe my car is more tired than I realized. If I wasn't putting so much money in my Chevelle, I would fix the Z28.



I'm 23. I grew up with it and its the car that got me interested in Camaros.

I drive it because my Chevelle isn't done and I still think its a good car, just not in the way a Z/28 is.
I rest my case... sounds like GM did something right.
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Old 06-04-2013, 12:19 PM   #58
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I rest my case... sounds like GM did something right.
I'm not saying its a shit car. I love driving it. I'm saying the Z28 badge is just for marketing. It doesn't mean what the Z/28 badge does.
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Old 06-04-2013, 01:02 PM   #59
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Why not? You realize there are many people who used their Z28's just as they came from the factory in SCCA racing, right? Just check out Sam Strano and Solo II, for instance. One didn't need a 1LE to race their vehicle -- and win. There's also the Camaro-Mustang Challenge series, etc. Just because it was "just" another Camaro model rather than some "special" option doesn't make it any less commendable, especially if we put it into the context of its competition from that time frame.
Off the top of my head, Sam's seat time in Camaros was mainly in E-Street Prepared, which is a good bit removed from factory-stock in many respects.
Even F-Stock is allowed to run on better tires than the 5th gen Z/28 ships with.

I can't comment on C-M-C; I've never seen the rulebook.

If you're trying to say that the 3rd/4th gen Camaros were decent platforms for their time as something to start from, sure. But that's not quite the same as either this new Z/28 or the original that makes no excuses as to its intent from the get-go.


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Old 06-04-2013, 01:11 PM   #60
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If you're trying to say that the 3rd/4th gen Camaros were decent platforms for their time as something to start from, sure. But that's not quite the same as either this new Z/28 or the original that makes no excuses as to its intent from the get-go.


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That's all I was trying to say.
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Old 06-04-2013, 01:26 PM   #61
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Off the top of my head, Sam's seat time in Camaros was mainly in E-Street Prepared, which is a good bit removed from factory-stock in many respects.
Even F-Stock is allowed to run on better tires than the 5th gen Z/28 ships with.

I can't comment on C-M-C; I've never seen the rulebook.

If you're trying to say that the 3rd/4th gen Camaros were decent platforms for their time as something to start from, sure. But that's not quite the same as either this new Z/28 or the original that makes no excuses as to its intent from the get-go.


Norm
I'm certainly no expert, but I was under the impression that certain classes like F-stock only allow for things like tires, but one has to use the same wheels (or wheels that were OE optional for that model; one could also use up-level exhaust for instance... like putting NPP on a non-NPP car would be OK). From my recollection, there was some time that went by before the SCCA changed their rules that allowed Z28 owners to swap their 16" wheels out for the new (at the time) 17" SS wheels.

Again, I am not involved in SCCA other than the two days I participated and met Sam when I owned my 2000 (which, incidentally, was bumped into a higher class because I had subframe connectors). With that said, most serious racers are going to change whatever they can to gain a competitive edge -- that is, whatever is allowed in their class. I'd expect nothing different with the 5th gen Z/28 (the only ones that will likely stay stock are one's that won't ever be used for their intended purpose).

At the end of the day, the point I was trying to make is what you were surmising at the end of your post with 3rd and 4th gens being competitive in the context of their competition at the time. I'd also venture to guess that one would have invested significantly less to make their "stock" Z28 into something competitive on the track compared to this [presumably] $70k monster. I am not saying that in a negative light, mind you, but just saying the 80's/90's Z28 was more "grass roots budget" friendly than this LS7 monster is going to be.
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Old 06-05-2013, 03:29 PM   #62
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I think we're splitting hairs at this point. The intent for each of the three generation of camaros that were talking about IMO were very different from each other. In the first generation, the camaro wasn't paying homage to anything, so its focus was to offer an alternative to the mustang. The z/28 was a new offering that promised great track handling and affordable small block power. By the time the f-platform reached its pinnacle in the 4th generation, the z28's focus became more or less generic within the camaro line, due in part to the fact that it was a long running model with a legendary past, in which IMO the focus on exclusivity was not present. Ironically the 4th gens were faster, handled better and were more reliable than the first gens, but with the 4th gens they seemed somewhat standardized with its theme (thus z28, then z28SS, then z28 and ss, with the ss being an option for the z28).

With the 5th gens, we have more distinctiveness with the z/28 with some homage cues and an exciting power and handling package. Even with the 5th gen models, some compromise found their way in the offerings. High horsepower and good handling came at a cost of increased weight, bulk and a higher sticker price.

So its really not comparing apples to apples when looking at a 1st gen to a 4th gen to a 5th gen. Each generation's focus was influenced by its competitiors, the technology of the time, and prevailing government standards. All of the generations provided great performance for the money.
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Old 06-05-2013, 03:40 PM   #63
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Ironically the 4th gens were faster, handled better and were more reliable than the first gens



So its really not comparing apples to apples when looking at a 1st gen to a 4th gen to a 5th gen.
to the first point

to the second point, to me it is apples to apples. the Z28 was the top of the line Camaro. the 1970 was by all accounts an even better car with better handling and the same acceleration. the third and fourth generations had cornering power the first generation certainly did not. so if we're not talking about actual performance I don't know what the hell we're talking about.
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Old 06-05-2013, 03:49 PM   #64
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^True, but you do have to consider the technology available for the generations at the time. The first gens were trendsetters, as well as the second gen. However, the automobiles at those times didn't have the suspension and tire advantages that the 3rd, 4th and 5th gens had. Its great that the ladder day camaros outperformed their predecessors, but they did so as a result of the advancement of technology and lessons learned from building prior camaros.

Now...imagine a factory built first gen with an ls3, lowering springs, bilstein shocks and brembos. That would strike fear in (almost) any other factory built camaro!
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Old 06-05-2013, 03:52 PM   #65
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not getting your point. everything gets better. still means whatever is the best Camaro AT THAT TIME is a Z28. I love all Camaros. I've owned multiple generations, read books and have decades old magazines on them. since the new 'Z/28' was shown it's the first I've heard that a "Z28 is not a Z/28".
my point is now this thing has started, 'it's not a a real Z without the slash' well if it performs as good or better , how is it it not a real Z? if it's not all of us that owned them should sue GM for false advertising.

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Old 06-05-2013, 05:37 PM   #66
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not getting your point. everything gets better. still means whatever is the best Camaro AT THAT TIME is a Z28. I love all Camaros. I've owned multiple generations, read books and have decades old magazines on them. since the new 'Z/28' was shown it's the first I've heard that a "Z28 is not a Z/28".
my point is now this thing has started, 'it's not a a real Z without the slash' well if it performs as good or better , how is it it not a real Z? if it's not all of us that owned them should sue GM for false advertising.
Interesting way of putting it.
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Old 06-05-2013, 06:50 PM   #67
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^My point is that its "pointless" to compare the different generations just based on their performance numbers, because all things are not equal in terms of how each generation of camaros were made, and how each generation produced their performance numbers.

I'm sure the "/" means something, but IMO I think analyzing the slash is an academic point as well. The slash means that chevy is associating this model, by name and its performance characteristics, closely to the first generation (obvious).
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:21 PM   #68
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^My point is that its "pointless" to compare the different generations just based on their performance numbers, because all things are not equal in terms of how each generation of camaros were made, and how each generation produced their performance numbers.

I'm sure the "/" means something, but IMO I think analyzing the slash is an academic point as well. The slash means that chevy is associating this model, by name and its performance characteristics, closely to the first generation (obvious).
In my opinion, the / designates that the car is built for the purpose of racing while being street legal. Sure, comparing the 1st gen Z/28 to the 4th gen Z28 isn't apples to apples and the 4th gen probably is faster in every way but, if you took a 4th gen and built it in a way to optimize its track performance, like a 1st gen, it would probably be significantly faster than a standard Z28 would be.

That is the point I am trying to make.
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Old 06-05-2013, 08:18 PM   #69
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The slash was dropped in 1973
...actually, the slash as it's referred to was dropped after 1969, 1970 through 1974 Camaro's Z28's used the same emblem....without the slash....
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:42 AM   #70
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everyone likes what they like lol

I've owned 6 Camaro's and 4 of which were t-tops. My 2 hardtops were fun as hell to drive in the twisties, but I loved my t-top cars more.

btw I hate it when people put SS hood's on a Z28, why not just buy the SS in the first place?
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:54 PM   #71
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...actually, the slash as it's referred to was dropped after 1969, 1970 through 1974 Camaro's Z28's used the same emblem....without the slash....
You are correct I got struck by CRS again I should've known better


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Old 06-06-2013, 08:21 PM   #72
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CRS and chewing gum and talking at the same time without difficulty go hand in hand.....sadly I admit that's so....as that comes on with age.
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Old 06-06-2013, 08:35 PM   #73
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Yes, when it comes to being a Z28. It's decently fast but I wouldn't track it as it came stock. I enjoy my car but that doesn't mean it was built in honor of the Z/28 heritage.
They did the best they could with the technology they had at the time and it took over a decade for Ford to catch up to the fourth gens straight line performance. To me the fifth gen Z/28 is it's own animal as the original Z/28s had a similar purpose but were no where close in regards to the price of the fifth gen Z.
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Old 06-06-2013, 09:40 PM   #74
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They did the best they could with the technology they had at the time and it took over a decade for Ford to catch up to the fourth gens straight line performance. To me the fifth gen Z/28 is it's own animal as the original Z/28s had a similar purpose but were no where close in regards to the price of the fifth gen Z.
I don't know if I would say they did the best they could with what they had. I would say they did what they were willing to with the Camaro.

The 1st, early 2nd and 5th gen Z/28s are true to the badge, in my opinion. The rest just used it for marketing.
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Old 06-07-2013, 06:26 AM   #75
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The 1st and early 2nd gen F-bodies played in an era of much tougher competition than did the 3rd and 4th gen cars.

All the 3rds and 4ths faced were warmed-over Ford Fairmonts with rear suspensions that look a lot like GM's intermediates from the 1960's through the mid 1980's. When the other guy runs his entry-level sedan chassis with about 50 cubic inches less engine than yours and calls it the performance model of his ponycar, how hard do you really have to try?

The 5th gen is up against a far better Mustang - GRM considers the S197 a game-changer (current issue on the stands). The 5th gen's standard bearers are that much better as a result. Have to be.


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