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Old 11-14-2009, 12:27 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23 View Post
as there are numerous M6's out there that have blowers and turbos and nitrous and many other power adders that are in the same vin ranges that have yet to blow their shafts. only way to be sure is to go out and try to break it while its still under warranty and before mods get added. IMO.
My car is stock and will be remaining that way for a while, other than maybe a mild tune, axle back exhaust and maybe a CAI in the future, it will remain the way it is.....and honestly, being told to go out and try to break my car to see if it's defective is absurd. I do not want to go out and start dumping the clutch and do numerous burnouts to see if my car is defective, I want GM to tell me if mine is affected , and if so replace it, not go out and break it, then sit and wait for a tow, take it to the dealer and hope I'm not accused of beating on my car..... am I asking for too much.
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Old 11-14-2009, 12:36 PM   #142
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With all do respect, calling the people who make the components for the car is not our job here. I did call GM's hotline and no matter how I expressed my concern over this issue as it affects my newly purchased vehicle, I get the runaround and no response back. I have brought this issue up at my dealer and they say the same thing about everything. There is nothing they can do unless GM sends them a recall notice. Basically it has to break before they look at it. As for keeping silent on this issue for this long is a travesty and your explanation as to why you have kept silent this long is also very troubling.



Its not my job to call them either, but I choose to do so to find out anything and everything I can about this car. I know the hotline has been a serious issue for a while and I wish I could help that. my reason for keeping silent is more than I can say right now. I've heard a lot of rumors about things and I will not go into further details about them until I have solidified them as fact. you can call it troubling or a travesty, but if the rumors I've heard are wrong and I post them without any grounds, it could lead to the end of this car. I shit you not.

So my posts above as a concerned Camaro owner are being read by you and GM and for that at least I can breath a sigh of relief. You say you send many private messages between each other talking about this thread which is all good. However a simple message to all of us here months ago would have gone a long way to calm us all down. Why did GM let it get this far? (I know your answer already so no need to re-explain) I posted a concern about this issue months ago and it is hard to believe talking to us would have spiralled anything out of control.

I cant speak on behalf of GM as to why this has gotten so far, I can speculate, but that doesnt do much good. The only things that I can think of is the number of affected vehicles and the time ranges that these are occuring. if it was a larger amount happening all around the same time, things might be different, I dont know.

In your eyes this issue may be small in comparison to the number of Camaro's manufactured vs having this issue. However like I posted above, 1)how can you know for certain if allowing all of us who drive our Camaro's normally won't have this issue happen at 50,000 or 90,000 due to stress fractures in the shaft over time. 2)Will this part be covered on some type of an extended recall warranty at that point? 3)First of all, is there a way to know for certain what vehicles are affected and which ones aren't without guessing? That is the main question. My second question is 4)whether or not a dealer mechanic can detect a problem shaft before it gets damaged if given special instruction on what to look for by you? 5)If there is no way to know for certain which vehicles got the messed up shafts other than a VIN range, will you let us know if our vehicle falls within that range? 6)Will you be willing to replace the shafts that still work but may fall under the problem batch of shafts? All these are important questions that I'm sure all of us would like to know.

I try and look at things from all sides. on one side, it is a small amount of vehicles being affected. on the other side.... it sucks to be that guy out there that tries to have some fun with his brand new car and it fails him at the worst possible time.

as for your questions.
1. based on what I have seen, the shafts are shearing off completely in the same place every time. I cant say that it wont happen for XXX miles as there's so many factors that could play into them breaking

2. thats hard to say. I would imagine that it will be covered under warranty so long as you dont void your powertrain warranty. you would have to check with your dealer to solidify that part.

3. we were told there was a string of cars that the "bad batch" made its way into, I cant find where that vin range was posted however. that is the only solace that we've been given as to who could be affected and who might not be. however, I dont remember off hand what the vin range was, so as far as I'm concerned, EVERY V8 M6 is at risk.

4. from what I've seen with the way that these are breaking, there wont be anything "leading up" to it breaking. either it will snap or it wont. so I do not believe there will be anything to look for prior to it breaking.

5. that is why I'm trying to find the post with the vin range of which vehicles were affected so we can compare that to whats happening now.

6. that might be harder to push thru due to the possibility that while you might go out and do a 5k clutch dump, another owner will baby the crap out of the car and never.... ever get on it. and in a business sense, it does save money to only fix it when it breaks as opposed to replacing something that might go bad in a small range of vehicles. I'm not saying I completely agree with it, but I can understand GM's stance on it.

What I don't want is a decision from GM behind closed doors basically deciding "Those damaged shafts on the majority of the vehicles withint the affected VIn range are good enough for non-dragster driving so we don't tell them about it" in order to save money. In that case you are playing with peoples lives and there is no way to know how long term usage would play a role in the shaft cracking either.. I've been driving mine very easy however I will take it out on the track at some point. I just need assurance that the shaft is solid and won't break if I try launch control a couple times a week. Ultimately, what we all want is for you guys at GM to talk to us more often, and if you want send us personal messages on an individual basis if we have concerns. The GM hotline is useless as you know so having you guys being able to keep us in the loupe is important and appreciated between all of us. You have my VIN number, and I'm sure others would be glad to ask you the same thing I did in a stickied thread. You guys will get lots of props from all of us if this is handled the right way.
I completely agree with you. I am not someone who likes it when someone is pissing on my head and telling me its raining.




however, and I put this out as a cautionary warning to all of you, I strongly recommend NOT using launch control. yes its a cool feature to have, as is traction control and stability control. but if you are going to the track or are going to pound on the car, turn off stability control and traction control. granted torque management will still be there, but dont use launch control.

reason being is this: wheel hop is a bitch and a half. using launch control holds the rpms of the car at a certain point with your foot to the floor. the engine is constantly opening and closing the throttle, pulling and giving timing and fuel to hold the car at that point. torque management, tc and sc do the same thing once you are moving.

what happens when you are constantly adding power, then taking it away then adding then taking? when your wheels grab, then slip, then grab, then slip....? wheel hop.

if you are going to race this car, or drive "spiritedly" turn off all that stuff. it is there to assist you when your wheels lose traction, or you lose control of the car due to unpreventable circumstances. keeping those systems active while trying to push the car is counter active. you are trying to push the car, the car is trying to keep you from pushing it.
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Old 11-14-2009, 12:53 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by 3 SS's View Post
My car is stock and will be remaining that way for a while, other than maybe a mild tune, axle back exhaust and maybe a CAI in the future, it will remain the way it is.....and honestly, being told to go out and try to break my car to see if it's defective is absurd. I do not want to go out and start dumping the clutch and do numerous burnouts to see if my car is defective, I want GM to tell me if mine is affected , and if so replace it, not go out and break it, then sit and wait for a tow, take it to the dealer and hope I'm not accused of beating on my car..... am I asking for too much.

absurd as it may sound, its the only way that YOU can be sure. GM said this car would run 13.3 stock in the 1/4 mile.... but yet we've got stock cars going faster than that.

I cant tell you if your car is affected or not. I'm telling you the only guaranteed way to find out is to go try and break it. because if the vin range of affected vehicles comes out to be skewed, or another bad batch made its way in, the only way of finding out is by having the shaft break.
you arent asking for too much wanting the safety of knowing your car will hold up. but if your dealer tries to deny a warranty claim because you were pushing your car, thats complete bs and a completely different situation that needs to be dealt with.

the true problem is HOW do you tell if its defective without testing the shaft itself. how does GM test that? ok, there was a specific range where they know that there were bad parts being sent out... but how often to bad parts still slip thru the cracks? just like the A-pillars that were falling off of cars upon delivery... a lot stayed on, but some didnt.
Not saying that they shouldnt be a little more open about whats going on.






imagine this. say you are GM. and say one shaft in every 1000 broke, and you've sold, say 10,000 of them. so now you have a total of 10 shafts that will break in 10,000. how much financial sense does it make to recall every single one of those 10,000 vehicles to replace 10 bad shafts?
or you wait it out until those 10 shafts break on the road, then you replace them as they come. much cheaper and feasable.


now, do not take that scenario to heart. that is just pure speculation on what may or may not be happening.



I honestly wish I could just say that everything will be all right and no one else will have to deal with this, but I cant. all I can say is to go and have fun with the car. for the time being, if it breaks, it breaks. and thats exactly what your warranty was designed for.
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Old 11-14-2009, 03:27 PM   #144
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Had an 88 Cougar I bought new. Had my kids in the car and all the belts came off stranding the car. Ford knew about a bad heat treat on the belt tensioner spring but chose to wait and see which ones failed. Guess what ALL FAILED per my salesman when I had my car towed back there. Boy was I Pi$$ed for not being informed and it was the first time I got stranded in a NEW CAR!
So mad about that and the oil burning I traded it in after 6 months.
I previously worked for Walbro and when there was a suspect batch of parts we traveled to the assembly lines and weeded them out, even if it meant crawling on your back in large holding lots under cars to remove the parts.
I don't think GM wants Egg on their face on this one if they are to improve their Quality image and win back customers. They should have done an 8D defective part analysis by now with whoever supplied these tail shafts yokes. They should be fully aware of the suspect parts and the vin numbers they were assembled in.
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Old 11-14-2009, 03:50 PM   #145
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This thread has been mostly respectful and reasonable. This issue is a simple one.

The M6 output shafts are breaking enough that we have seen at least 20 of them posted here.

How many broke where people don't post on the Internet?


Real simple.

GM has said: We found the problem, and we're not telling you what it was. (Or they don't know.)

We're not sure or we're not telling you which units are affected.

If your car is affected, we'll call you. Pure bullshit. Of all broken output shaft posts, nobody was notified in any way. We don't like being bullshitted.

If Toyota or Nissan made a car I wanted, I'd just go buy one of those.

The Camaro is all I want. You're stuck with me. (thorn in side)

We don't like it being the laughing stock of import owners at a domestic/import car challenge.

2 Camaros leave on flatbeds. Not good PR.

Don't give us crap for asking for way overdue information; Again.

Silence is not golden in this case.
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Old 11-14-2009, 05:28 PM   #146
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I cant tell you if your car is affected or not.

And I am certainly not asking you to
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Old 11-14-2009, 10:20 PM   #147
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I completely agree with you. I am not someone who likes it when someone is pissing on my head and telling me its raining.




however, and I put this out as a cautionary warning to all of you, I strongly recommend NOT using launch control. yes its a cool feature to have, as is traction control and stability control. but if you are going to the track or are going to pound on the car, turn off stability control and traction control. granted torque management will still be there, but dont use launch control.

reason being is this: wheel hop is a bitch and a half. using launch control holds the rpms of the car at a certain point with your foot to the floor. the engine is constantly opening and closing the throttle, pulling and giving timing and fuel to hold the car at that point. torque management, tc and sc do the same thing once you are moving.

what happens when you are constantly adding power, then taking it away then adding then taking? when your wheels grab, then slip, then grab, then slip....? wheel hop.

if you are going to race this car, or drive "spiritedly" turn off all that stuff. it is there to assist you when your wheels lose traction, or you lose control of the car due to unpreventable circumstances. keeping those systems active while trying to push the car is counter active. you are trying to push the car, the car is trying to keep you from pushing it.
Thanks for responding. I don't have time to write a full reply at the moment but will work on one later. I'm not too happy to hear we should run the car hard to see if it will break but if that is the case, I would want assurance from Gm my warranty won't be denied if it does. All the info you have given so far is very informative and info we didn't know. All of them are snapping at the same point which is interesting and shows it is a defect in the building process obviously with one of the machines the company is using. It makes sense if they use two or three different machines to harden the metal, that would explain why some are affected and others are not. With that said, it would be easy to determine how many are affected if you know the number of machines they are using in total.. Simply divide them up by the total number of Camaro's produced up until the date they discovered the issue and stopped using the faulty machine and you would know exactly how many Camaro's have the potential problem.
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Old 11-14-2009, 10:29 PM   #148
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I'm starting to wonder if this is about launch control and wheel hop alone.

Maybe there's no defective parts to report on. Maybe every M6 Camaro SS will break if you use launch control and/or encounter wheel hop.

And then you were abusing the car, so the warranty is void. Boy, this sounds familiar.

Is that why there's no inside answers?

Patiently waiting for info. Thanks.
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Old 11-15-2009, 12:56 AM   #149
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I'm starting to wonder if this is about launch control and wheel hop alone.

Maybe there's no defective parts to report on. Maybe every M6 Camaro SS will break if you use launch control and/or encounter wheel hop.

And then you were abusing the car, so the warranty is void. Boy, this sounds familiar.

Is that why there's no inside answers?

Patiently waiting for info. Thanks.
If you are correct, then how are future models being fixed? I think it is a single machine out of perhaps 3 or 4 that made these shafts from the supplier and they simply got rid of or fixed the machine. (If they only had one machine performing the task and the problem lies with the metal itself via impurities etc, then there would be no way of knowing exactly how many are affected. However if a couple machines were used and the metal is all the same quality, then it would be easy to calculate how many Camaro's will have faulty parts that may fail under certain conditions like launch control or anything else causing wheel hop that could snap the faulty part. I do remember in one thread the replacement shaft was thicker.. If that is so, then are all of them being installed thicker? I guess what we would want to know is if the problem really is fixed and if so how? Or else camaro5's theory may be the most logical of all the theories.
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Old 11-15-2009, 01:28 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23 View Post
I strongly recommend NOT using launch control. yes its a cool feature to have, as is traction control and stability control. but if you are going to the track or are going to pound on the car, turn off stability control and traction control. granted torque management will still be there, but dont use launch control.

Ok, this confuses me. So if I drive the car hard, it is better to turn off stab and trac control off and this is done by tapping the button 2 times, correct? or holding the button down for 7 seconds?


if you are going to race this car, or drive "spiritedly" turn off all that stuff. it is there to assist you when your wheels lose traction, or you lose control of the car due to unpreventable circumstances. keeping those systems active while trying to push the car is counter active. you are trying to push the car, the car is trying to keep you from pushing it

ok, I must be tired but this confuses me even more. Now I am taking your statement above to mean "turn everything off by holding down the button of 7 or so seconds to turn EVERYTHING off" which to me, would be contrary to your previous recommendation. ??
.
Can someone please educate me on this? I may launch the car hard and do some spirited driving from time to time but I want to lessen the chance of breaking the shaft due to wheelhop, etc. So, so should I
  • leave everything on (dont press the button at all)
  • press the button 2 time (turn off Stability and Traction controls OFF)
  • press and hold the button for 7 seconds (turns everything off)
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Old 11-15-2009, 02:42 AM   #151
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absurd as it may sound, its the only way that YOU can be sure. GM said this car would run 13.3 stock in the 1/4 mile.... but yet we've got stock cars going faster than that.

I cant tell you if your car is affected or not. I'm telling you the only guaranteed way to find out is to go try and break it. because if the vin range of affected vehicles comes out to be skewed, or another bad batch made its way in, the only way of finding out is by having the shaft break.
you arent asking for too much wanting the safety of knowing your car will hold up. but if your dealer tries to deny a warranty claim because you were pushing your car, thats complete bs and a completely different situation that needs to be dealt with.

the true problem is HOW do you tell if its defective without testing the shaft itself. how does GM test that? ok, there was a specific range where they know that there were bad parts being sent out... but how often to bad parts still slip thru the cracks? just like the A-pillars that were falling off of cars upon delivery... a lot stayed on, but some didnt.
Not saying that they shouldnt be a little more open about whats going on.






imagine this. say you are GM. and say one shaft in every 1000 broke, and you've sold, say 10,000 of them. so now you have a total of 10 shafts that will break in 10,000. how much financial sense does it make to recall every single one of those 10,000 vehicles to replace 10 bad shafts?
or you wait it out until those 10 shafts break on the road, then you replace them as they come. much cheaper and feasable.


now, do not take that scenario to heart. that is just pure speculation on what may or may not be happening.



I honestly wish I could just say that everything will be all right and no one else will have to deal with this, but I cant. all I can say is to go and have fun with the car. for the time being, if it breaks, it breaks. and thats exactly what your warranty was designed for.
So what your saying is the cause of the breakage has only occurred during launching using launch control? If so, is there enough data from all the people who had this issue to compile exactly what stress the Camaro's not affected should handle vs the ones that have the faulty part? In other words, what would be the average of launches I must try and exactly what numbers are we talking about so there is a way to test this out for ourselves. I'll try to re-phrase it in another way.. Perhaps we should get a formula of what we can do with the Camaro under warranty that either A: breaks the shaft or B: does not break the shaft so Camaro is working normally.. Unless you are saying all Camaro's are susceptible to launch control causing this issue which camaro5 has theorized. Just let us know the facts and how we can go about testing this ourselves (I don't like to use the word breaking it) so we can have peace of mind since GM is not willing to do it for us. Thanks for your input and help with this at this point in time. Better late than never..
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Old 11-15-2009, 02:52 AM   #152
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I talked with Al Oppenheiser, GM Chief Engineer (that's him in the pic below my screen name) at SEMA for quite awhile about the half shafts and output shafts. I assure you that GM is not taking this lightly. Al has lost alot of sleep over this issue and it is being taken care of. He loves his Camaro, he has over 30,000 miles on it.
The dealers were told to get the customers taken care of with these issues and get them back on the road in no more than 48 hrs. They are resolving the problem. So get off of their a$$es and quit worrying over something, that the odds are, doesn't effect you. Go and enjoy your car and if it breaks, it will be fixed. Isn't that what we have warantees for. If it doesn't break by the time your 100,000 mile warantee runs out, then rest assured it is good. There isn't a car out there that couldn't break a part, any part, at any time. You can be driving down the highway 30 minutes from now and have someone come across the line and total out your car, but does that make you leave it in the garage? NO. You still go enjoy your car, and make sure your insurance premiums are paid up. So, like the country song says...."Shut up and drive".
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Old 11-15-2009, 04:04 AM   #153
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I talked with Al Oppenheiser, GM Chief Engineer (that's him in the pic below my screen name) at SEMA for quite awhile about the half shafts and output shafts. I assure you that GM is not taking this lightly. Al has lost alot of sleep over this issue and it is being taken care of. He loves his Camaro, he has over 30,000 miles on it.
The dealers were told to get the customers taken care of with these issues and get them back on the road in no more than 48 hrs. They are resolving the problem. So get off of their a$$es and quit worrying over something, that the odds are, doesn't effect you. Go and enjoy your car and if it breaks, it will be fixed. Isn't that what we have warantees for. If it doesn't break by the time your 100,000 mile warantee runs out, then rest assured it is good. There isn't a car out there that couldn't break a part, any part, at any time. You can be driving down the highway 30 minutes from now and have someone come across the line and total out your car, but does that make you leave it in the garage? NO. You still go enjoy your car, and make sure your insurance premiums are paid up. So, like the country song says...."Shut up and drive".
I don't like your tone of voice. Al can speak to me if he wants directly about this issue. I am not going to calm down on this issue until we have a resolution. I'm glad dealers are able to get the cars fixed in under 48 hours and get them back to the owners. What re-enforcements were done to the car to make sure it doesn't break again under the same stress? From what I hear it is a thicker cam shaft however I don't know who to believe on this issue at this point. And you don't tell me to "shut up and drive", I have every right to be concerned and to want answers.. If you don't like me asking the questions and being tough on GM, then you're in the wrong forum..
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Old 11-15-2009, 12:07 PM   #154
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Ok, let's not go off the deep end. I believe everyone has said their peace so let's keep it inline.

We are all on the same page. There is a problem and we want answers.

From what I've read here I don't believe I'm in danger driving the car should the output shaft fail. There is no indication I'll lose control of the vehicle when this happens either. It may prove inconvenient if it snaps, but that is the case with any failure.

Me personally, I will continue to drive with all the controls on. The car was designed to have those safety features and I will run it as such.

In addition, I was out playing with launch control this morning and again no problem despite some minor wheel hop.

Maybe my car is not affected ~ maybe it just hasn't happened yet.

What I do know is this forum has been the single best source for information on this car and that GM takes our feedback seriously.

If my car breaks, my dealer will know and this forum will know. Until then I wait.
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