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Old 06-05-2013, 12:15 PM   #1
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FLEX FUEL CONVERSION

Check out what Dave Steck from DSX Tuning and Cincy Speed are doing to convert our cars to run flex fuel. I think its pretty cool to be able to run E85 or 93 octane fuel at any time. They add a sensor and recalibrate your factory PCM to read the alcohol entering the fuel system like a factory flex fuel system. That way if you are going to the track you can fill up with E85 and get the benefit of the higher octane and cooling properties of it. It allows you to add more timing to make more power. Once you leave the track, you can just add 93 octane and your factory PCM will readjust automatically. I think this would be great for anyone using force induction. You will also need larger Injectors and fuel pump to handle the higher 30% fuel consumption. Very cool idea.
http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...8-E67-addition
Picture of the sensor.
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Here is a write up of how someone wired it up on the HP Tuner forum.
It's a pretty cool idea

Dave's Flex fuel module & Alky Control kit details
Dave's flex fuel module arrived this weekend and I couldn't wait to wire her up to work with the Alky control kit.

The results were amazing, I have it setup where if the pump achieves pressure (green light on Alky control kit) the module pulls to ground and tell the PCM 100% Alcohol is entering the system. At which point you can add timing only when you're spraying methanol, as well as you can lean out your fuel system as soon as meth hits in the Stoich table.

Here is what it took to make this work.

You need a DPDT (double pole double throw) relay where one throw is normally closed, while the other is normally open. Reason being is the pressure switch on the pump pulls to ground when there is no pressure, and once pressure is achieved, it actually opens the circuit. When circuit is open (alky control kit not pulled to ground) that means there is pressure and the light on the alky goes green.

We want the opposite to happen for the flex fuel module, we want to pull to ground once pressure is achieved instead of the opposite.

By using a DPDT relay that has 6 pins (one throw normally open, one throw normally closed) using the following:

-Red wire going to meth pump goes to relay for constant power with key on
-One wire will go from relay to one end of pressure switch on meth pump
-Wire from other end of pressure switch on meth pump will go to ground
(above is done so depending on what pressure switch does, it pulls the relay on and off)
-Two ends on relay will go to direct ground (tie into wire from pressure switch thats always grounded, bottom wire on pump)
-One end on relay goes to alky control kit wire thats normally goes into one end of pressure switch
-Last end on relay goes to flex fuel module.

The above is the basics, once you look at a DPDT one throw normally open, one closed relay you'll see how its done, simple.

The idea is that once you are key on, the relay is energized because the pump with no pressure pulls to ground. The throw that opens the circuit in this condition (key on no pressure) goes to the flex fuel module, the idea is that when there is no pressure, we create an open to the flex fuel module so it does not activate. When this is happening, we want to keep the concept the same for the alky control kit, so no pressure means it pulls alky to ground.

Once pressure is achieved in the pump, the pressure switch opens, this de-energizes the DPDT relay, creating an open to the alky control kit which gives you the green light as intended, but actually pulls the flex fuel module to ground.

I'll post a video on you tube later tomorrow perhaps how it works.

It's really neat, because you are now much safer running meth to add power this way. If the pump fails during a run, your light on alky will go red and the flex fuel module will tell the PCM no alcohol, so you revert back to regular timing and fueling.

Best part is you still maintain the functionality of your test button on the alky kit, if you press it, you will see the car bog while cruising and your A/F will dip indicating the nozzle is not clogged because the flex fuel module will only add timing in PE mode for those who use it for what I want.

You can tune meth by spraying on the IAT, but its not always the best way, I've noticed that once you spray the IAT it reacts real fast to colder temp, but even if meth stops flowing, it takes a while for the IAT to go up in temp, mainly because the IAT is still wet. The other drawback of of tuning for power using IAT is in Canada, you'd need a winter tune, because when I spray in the summer, the IAT temps go down to the same temps as no meth in the winter, so the tune is off.

Using Dave's flex module and using the pressure switch to add / remove timing or fueling if you like, is the safest by far.

Sorry for the long thread but this toy is really cool!! I'll post a vid later.
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Old 06-05-2013, 12:41 PM   #2
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Is it possible for him to make it so the PCM can tell the difference between high/low octane gas - and actively adjust to which fuel table it should use?
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Old 06-05-2013, 03:37 PM   #3
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Is it possible for him to make it so the PCM can tell the difference between high/low octane gas - and actively adjust to which fuel table it should use?
I dont really know, maybe some of the tuners here can advise on that. Email him
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Old 06-05-2013, 05:06 PM   #4
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If that works I am in... thanks Manny nice find
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Old 06-05-2013, 05:22 PM   #5
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I dont really know, maybe some of the tuners here can advise on that. Email him
I've been reading up on it, and if I'm understanding it right you control what fuel map the car uses. The car can't/doesn't tell the difference on its own.
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Old 06-10-2013, 10:43 PM   #6
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Any new info on this Manny? Any of the local guys jumping on board yet?
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Old 06-11-2013, 09:24 AM   #7
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Any new info on this Manny? Any of the local guys jumping on board yet?
No I should have posted this on the Force Induction or the tuning section, would have gotten a better response. I would love to convert my car to run flex fuel and have the ability to run either 93 octane or E85 fuel at any time.
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This one has been set up for -6 ahead of time. Dave use Swagelok 316 stainless fittings not only for corrosion resistance, but for superior mechanical seal made on the hard line.
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Old 06-11-2013, 11:03 AM   #8
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Moved to forces induction section
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Old 06-11-2013, 01:51 PM   #9
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Here is a pic of the fitting above looking through it.
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Old 06-11-2013, 03:23 PM   #10
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Is it possible for him to make it so the PCM can tell the difference between high/low octane gas - and actively adjust to which fuel table it should use?
The Sensor tells the specific gravity of the fuel ( its a hydrometer) or its checking the capacitance of the fuel not sure how this one works. It will wire into the ECU and the ECU already has a Flex fuel table from the Factory I believe its just Disabled on the Camaros. So a tuner would have to Enable it. I didnt Read the Link but im sure Thats what they are doing. I thought long and hard about it a couple years ago doing it to my car just didnt seem realistic for me. Its pretty simple and GM has already done all the work so just have to add the Sensor and turn the Table on.

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Old 06-11-2013, 08:54 PM   #11
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...and tune it accordingly for best results.

I prefer to run corn all the time, but for some the flexibility would be nice. Mine's not a DD, so it's no big deal living 4 miles from 6 stations and 20 miles from the ethanol plant.
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Old 06-11-2013, 09:20 PM   #12
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The Sensor tells the specific gravity of the fuel ( its a hydrometer) or its checking the capacitance of the fuel not sure how this one works. It will wire into the ECU and the ECU already has a Flex fuel table from the Factory I believe its just Disabled on the Camaros. So a tuner would have to Enable it. I didnt Read the Link but im sure Thats what they are doing. I thought long and hard about it a couple years ago doing it to my car just didnt seem realistic for me. Its pretty simple and GM has already done all the work so just have to add the Sensor and turn the Table on.
I don't believe it's that it's disabled, it just doesn't get any input.
What Dave has done here is pretty damn cool and makes me wish E85 was more readily available here.
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Old 06-12-2013, 06:42 AM   #13
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I don't believe it's that it's disabled, it just doesn't get any input.
What Dave has done here is pretty damn cool and makes me wish E85 was more readily available here.
No I'm pretty sure you can turn it off and on in the tune. People were doing this in 2010-11.
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Old 06-12-2013, 07:00 AM   #14
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my only concern is that some of the factory components may not be ethanol safe, fuel lubricates better than ethanol and the fuel pump has to be made ethanol safe too if you are not changing it. Just ask the boaters that have had ethanol problems using only e10, it happens even if using the fuel and not only by letting it sit.
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Old 06-12-2013, 09:19 AM   #15
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SS & ZL1 fuel pumps are E85 ok from what I have found on the web. My Livernois converted CTS-V twin pump is not specifically E85 rated, but no issues have been noted that I can find over the years. Nothing in the fuel system is going to fall apart from E85 anymore, those days are past. I know my ID850 injectors are up to it. SS & ZL1 Bosch injectors are ok with E85 also.

I run Marvel Mystery Oil in the fuel for a bit of extra lube, I'll let you know in 10 years if it's all still ok.
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Old 06-12-2013, 09:23 AM   #16
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No I'm pretty sure you can turn it off and on in the tune. People were doing this in 2010-11.
The pin has to be wired into the E38 ECU for the sensor, it's not in the harness. I believe it's pin 40, but it's in Dave's thread over on HPTuners.
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Old 06-12-2013, 09:40 AM   #17
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The pin has to be wired into the E38 ECU for the sensor, it's not in the harness. I believe it's pin 40, but it's in Dave's thread over on HPTuners.
It is pin 40. I'm taking about turning on and off the flex fuel table not wiring in the sensor. If I remember Correctly hp tuners added the ability to enable the table with hp tuners in 2010 for cars that were not enabled from the Factory. Not to take anything away from Dave but this was not his or Cincy speeds Idea( not that they are taking credit for it) It has been done on other cars before and my guess it has been done on other camaro's before. First Time I remember talking about it hp tuners could'nt enable the table at the time I believe. which would have been 2009.

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Old 06-12-2013, 09:41 AM   #18
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my only concern is that some of the factory components may not be ethanol safe, fuel lubricates better than ethanol and the fuel pump has to be made ethanol safe too if you are not changing it. Just ask the boaters that have had ethanol problems using only e10, it happens even if using the fuel and not only by letting it sit.
I had a boat for 12 years which I used weekly and had no problems, until I let it sit. The problem with the boats is that they sit to long and the ethanol cleans all your varnish off your aluminum fuel tank, which end up inside the injectors or carbs.
Lots of people using E85 with out any problem. The reason I like this setup, is you can go back and forth between the two fuel with out having to change your tune.
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Old 06-12-2013, 09:54 AM   #19
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I had a boat for 12 years which I used weekly and had no problems, until I let it sit. The problem with the boats is that they sit to long and the ethanol cleans all your varnish off your aluminum fuel tank, which end up inside the injectors or carbs.
Lots of people using E85 with out any problem. The reason I like this setup, is you can go back and forth between the two fuel with out having to change your tune.
Yeah I have a small Varnish issue right now from running just plain 93 and letting it sit alittle to long.
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Old 06-12-2013, 10:11 AM   #20
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Here are a coupe pic's from Cincy Speed. They are installing a Flex fuel sensor on a crazy CTSV build, which they got from Dave.
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Old 06-12-2013, 10:13 AM   #21
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Yeah I have a small Varnish issue right now from running just plain 93 and letting it sit alittle to long.
On your car or boat?
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:25 PM   #22
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Quote:
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I had a boat for 12 years which I used weekly and had no problems, until I let it sit. The problem with the boats is that they sit to long and the ethanol cleans all your varnish off your aluminum fuel tank, which end up inside the injectors or carbs.
Lots of people using E85 with out any problem. The reason I like this setup, is you can go back and forth between the two fuel with out having to change your tune.
Are you saying that if you have a TVS2300, cam, headers, etc...with a custom tune for either 91 or 93, after adding this you can just put E85 in and there will be no need to have it tuned at all, the computer will compensate for the 30% required richer mixture all by it's self?
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:46 PM   #23
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Are you saying that if you have a TVS2300, cam, headers, etc...with a custom tune for either 91 or 93, after adding this you can just put E85 in and there will be no need to have it tuned at all, the computer will compensate for the 30% required richer mixture all by it's self?
That is my understanding....I am sure it would need to be tuned for the E-85. We would need to contact Dave Steck at (LSX tuning) to get more info since he the only
one who ever outlined how to actually do it. Thats why I found it to be so interesting for us with force induction to be able to utilize this set up. I wish someone that has it installed could comment on it.
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Old 06-12-2013, 02:02 PM   #24
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Dave is DSX tuning I believe.
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Old 06-12-2013, 03:18 PM   #25
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On your car or boat?
boat
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