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Old 06-12-2013, 08:13 PM   #29
TexasChile
 
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Originally Posted by cbass View Post
How is it a better design?

The LS3 produces more peak hp and more through the powerband and thus has less moving parts. With a disadvantage of 2 valves per cylinder and no VVT like the coyote.

What's better about that?

Why focus on displacement?
Why aren't you saying wow the LS3 produces more hp with 2 less valves per cylinder?

The coyote needs 2 more valves per cylinder and two cams and yet still 6 hp short of the LS3 even with VVT that the LS3 doesn't have.

Then with all that crap the motor has packaging problems compared to the LS3 and all those extra parts on top of the motor effect handling negatively compared to one cam low in the block.
Which one produces more HP per cubic inch, and it is not even close. Nothing you wrote is correct. The LS is a bigger motor. I guess by your logic the LS3 should produce the same HP as the LS7. Bigger motors will produce more HP than a smaller motor, all things being equal.

Look, you can kid yourself all you want, but the overhead cam design produces more HP per cubic inch and is a better design than pushrods. If you don't believe that then I will let you believe what you want to believe.
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:14 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by cbass View Post
Cost
Weight
Packaging
Fuel economy
Weight distribution
Power throughout the powerband

How are all these trumped by displacement when it has no bad impact on weight and fuel economy?
Great example of above is the Chrylser/Jeep 4.7l SOHC vs 5.7 Hemi
Cost- probably cheaper for the hemi
Weight- they weigh the same
Packaging- They fit the same vehicles
Fuel Economy- The same rating
Weight distribution- Hemi's center of gravity is lower
Power- HEMI makes 100 more horsepower!

I get better fuel mileage with my '11 1500 longhorn crewcab then I did with my 2002 durango w/ a 4.7l. The durango weighed less and had much less power. Same gear ratio and same transmission!

By the way, the Ford 427 SOHC was HUGE!!! it wouldn't fit in most vehicles. It mad a great swap for a boss 429 hemi that had the shock towers modified at a factory.
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:17 PM   #31
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Ok.

The coyote makes 420 hp compared to 426 hp for the LS3.
426 > 420 hp. Thus the LS3 has better performance.

Everything I wrote is true.

The coyote motor weights 430 lbs. The LS3 weights 418 lbs.
The LS3 is a lighter motor.

Having the weight down low in the block like the LS3 has a handling advantage and having the weight up high like in the overhead cam coyote has a handling disadvantage.

The coyote motor is larger physically and thus uses more space in the engine compartment. The LS3 is able to fit in much smaller spaces.

What have I said that is false?

I think people get brainwashed into thinking a particular motor is a better design and more advanced without actually doing some research and thinking for themselves.
The coyote puts out 440 HP in the Boss 302, and it does it with a much smaller motor. You don't seem to understand that larger motors produce more HP. The LS3 is much larger than the 5.0. The weight is almost the same-no big difference. Again, if the pushrod motor is so great, why are all the other cars (other than Dodge) not using them in any of their cars, including their small cars. It's not brain washing, its facts and logic.
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:19 PM   #32
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You can't compare a DOHC motor to a pushrod motor with equal displacement.

The added displacement of the pushrod motor is one of it's inherent advantages.

A DOHC motor must be smaller to fit in the same space and weigh the same.

Get over the displacement and look at the engines for what they are!
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:22 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Irnwkrkev View Post
Great example of above is the Chrylser/Jeep 4.7l SOHC vs 5.7 Hemi
Cost- probably cheaper for the hemi
Weight- they weigh the same
Packaging- They fit the same vehicles
Fuel Economy- The same rating
Weight distribution- Hemi's center of gravity is lower
Power- HEMI makes 100 more horsepower!

I get better fuel mileage with my '11 1500 longhorn crewcab then I did with my 2002 durango w/ a 4.7l. The durango weighed less and had much less power. Same gear ratio and same transmission!

By the way, the Ford 427 SOHC was HUGE!!! it wouldn't fit in most vehicles. It mad a great swap for a boss 429 hemi that had the shock towers modified at a factory.
I don't think your "example" is great at all. Dodge cannot produce a decent overhead cam engine--no surprise there at all. The Hemi is much larger, so I hope it produces more HP.

Again, if push rod motors are so great, why are all economy cars, motorcycles, and other cars using overhead cams? If fuel economy is so good with pushrod motors, why are all economy cars using overhead cams? In short, the facts do not back up anything you are saying. Look at other cars. Where are all your great pushrod motors?
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:33 PM   #34
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You just don't get it.

You don't understand about the physical size of the engines. The weight and where it's placed in the engines. The cost of manufacturing the engines. The amount of parts in the engines. The fuel economy of the engines.

Here's another example:

Boat motors. With 4-stroke motors why do they still make 2-stroke motors?
They weigh less
They make more torque
They have less parts
They are cheaper to manufacture

There's more then one way to skin a cat. Just because two of the largest automobile manufacturers decided to embrace pushrod engines doesn't meat they are antiquated.

With todays technology you have pushrod engines that can rev from 600 to 7,000rpm without a hiccup. They are light, small in size, big in displacement, cheaper to produce, reliable.

With direct injection, multi displacement, and VVT they are only going to get better. Just wait until the C7 corvette's LT1 engine has some time to develop an aftermarket following!
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:36 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Irnwkrkev View Post
You can't compare a DOHC motor to a pushrod motor with equal displacement.

The added displacement of the pushrod motor is one of it's inherent advantages.

A DOHC motor must be smaller to fit in the same space and weigh the same.

Get over the displacement and look at the engines for what they are!
The Ford GT 500 has a larger motor than the 5.0 and it fits in the Mustang just fine and it produces a lot more HP than the ZL1. I think your statements above are exaggerated--the weight, size, center of gravity, etc. are not as big a difference as you make them out to be. What little difference there is in those factors is far outweighed by the pure HP advantage per cubic inch of the overhead cam design.
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:40 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by TexasChile View Post
Which one produces more HP per cubic inch, and it is not even close. Nothing you wrote is correct. The LS is a bigger motor. I guess by your logic the LS3 should produce the same HP as the LS7. Bigger motors will produce more HP than a smaller motor, all things being equal.

Look, you can kid yourself all you want, but the overhead cam design produces more HP per cubic inch and is a better design than pushrods. If you don't believe that then I will let you believe what you want to believe.
Why more hp / cubic inch?

Why not more hp / lb (engine weight)?

Why not hp / number of valves?

Why not hp / number of cams ?

I have given you category after category of where pushrod motors are superior and you focus on one.

Do you not understand that displacement is limited on the 5.0 due to packaging. You have theoretical gains based on displacement but don't you understand that engine has to go into a car under a good and the packaging problems of a overhead cam engine restrict displacement.
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:41 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Irnwkrkev View Post
You just don't get it.

You don't understand about the physical size of the engines. The weight and where it's placed in the engines. The cost of manufacturing the engines. The amount of parts in the engines. The fuel economy of the engines.

Here's another example:

Boat motors. With 4-stroke motors why do they still make 2-stroke motors?
They weigh less
They make more torque
They have less parts
They are cheaper to manufacture

There's more then one way to skin a cat. Just because two of the largest automobile manufacturers decided to embrace pushrod engines doesn't meat they are antiquated.

With todays technology you have pushrod engines that can rev from 600 to 7,000rpm without a hiccup. They are light, small in size, big in displacement, cheaper to produce, reliable.

With direct injection, multi displacement, and VVT they are only going to get better. Just wait until the C7 corvette's LT1 engine has some time to develop an aftermarket following!
I disagree with everything you wrote above. There is no big weight or size disadvantage at all or all small cars would be using pushrod motors. You must live in a bubble. Look what all other cars are using. Why does GM use overhead cams in their 4 and 6 cylinder cars? Why not use push rods in the V6? I can tell you the answer. HP per cubic inch. You must be kidding about fuel economy. I guess Honda civics should be using push rod motors. Cost, long term reliability, etc.? Again, look at the Japanese economy cars. What are they using? Your arguments don't match up with reality or the facts or we would see the other manufactures using them. Your boat motor example is wrong too but I won't type a book on all of this. LOL.
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:42 PM   #38
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Again, if push rod motors are so great, why are all economy cars, motorcycles, and other cars using overhead cams? If fuel economy is so good with pushrod motors, why are all economy cars using overhead cams? In short, the facts do not back up anything you are saying. Look at other cars. Where are all your great pushrod motors?
Some are leaders in the industry and others are sheep that follow.

Where do those cars originate from? What markets are they marketed in and do those countries have tier licensing based on displacement or taxes?
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:44 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by TexasChile View Post
I disagree with everything you wrote above. There is no big weight or size disadvantage at all or all small cars would be using pushrod motors. You must live in a bubble. Look what all other cars are using. Why does GM use overhead cams in their 4 and 6 cylinder cars? Why not use push rods in the V6? I can tell you the answer. HP per cubic inch. You must be kidding about fuel economy. I guess Honda civics should be using push rod motors. Cost, long term reliability, etc.? Again, look at the Japanese economy cars. What are they using? Your arguments don't match up with reality or the facts or we would see the other manufactures using them. Your boat motor example is wrong too but I won't type a book on all of this. LOL.
The japanese have very lame motors. The corolla has been using the same 1.8L engine for over a decade producing the same enemic 130 hp.
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:46 PM   #40
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I disagree with everything you wrote above. There is no big weight or size disadvantage at all or all small cars would be using pushrod motors. You must live in a bubble. Look what all other cars are using. Why does GM use overhead cams in their 4 and 6 cylinder cars? Why not use push rods in the V6? I can tell you the answer. HP per cubic inch. You must be kidding about fuel economy. I guess Honda civics should be using push rod motors. Cost, long term reliability, etc.? Again, look at the Japanese economy cars. What are they using? Your arguments don't match up with reality or the facts or we would see the other manufactures using them. Your boat motor example is wrong too but I won't type a book on all of this. LOL.
So then why did GM chose to stay with pushrods when they designed the new small block motor?
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:46 PM   #41
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Why more hp / cubic inch?

Why not more hp / lb (engine weight)?

Why not hp / number of valves?

Why not hp / number of cams ?

I have given you category after category of where pushrod motors are superior and you focus on one.

Do you not understand that displacement is limited on the 5.0 due to packaging. You have theoretical gains based on displacement but don't you understand that engine has to go into a car under a good and the packaging problems of a overhead cam engine restrict displacement.
Displacement is not limited in an overhead cam motor. That is a myth. And overhead cam motors do not weigh more per cubic inch than a pushrod motor. Another myth. The reason overhead cam motors are smaller is because they can get the HP they need with less displacement--more HP per cubic inch. That is also why all cars (other than GM V8 and Dodge V8) use overhead cams. All cars. Do you not understand that fact. The pushrod motor is an obsolete design.
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:48 PM   #42
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Displacement is not limited in an overhead cam motor. That is a myth. And overhead cam motors do not weigh more per cubic inch than a pushrod motor. Another myth. The reason overhead cam motors are smaller is because they can get the HP they need with less displacement--more HP per cubic inch. That is also why all cars (other than GM V8 and Dodge V8) use overhead cams. All cars. Do you not understand that fact. The pushrod motor is an obsolete design.
The reason overhead cam motors exist is because some countries liscence and tax based on displacement and the only way you can get any power out of a smaller motor is to spin the piss out of it and overhead cams help with that. Do you not understand that? It's governed more by stupid law and taxes than a technical advantage.
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