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Old 06-23-2013, 01:41 PM   #18
Norm Peterson
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Originally Posted by Mgizzle View Post
In my opinion you gain lower cg on a heavy car and lots more camber in front and rear ( we both bottomed out at 0.8-0.9 negative on rear including another local guy).
While you do gain in terms of your static camber, you lose on a strut suspension in terms of how fast it recovers camber in roll against the chassis roll trying to make the cambers go + on the outer tire. On a strut front / most any IRS or stick axle rear suspended car with a halfway sane camber setting for at least occasional street driving, this implies heavier understeer.


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Old 06-23-2013, 02:12 PM   #19
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Ur camber curve depends on ur linkage, so lowering it will follow same curve as not lowering it, gains could be different depending on where u start on curve. However, increasing static camber while lowering cg and having highere wheel rates, results in less roll. Hence you could have better camber at full lat gs due to this vs stock. Tires dont lie, and my tires at -1.4 are worn on the outside.

Get the basic mechanical grip first, which is camber etc. And then you can worry about transient tools like dampers. Transients are for polishing lap times, ur lucky to get even half a second gain with perfectly set up dampers per lap vs. What comes onthe car.

U can argue suspension geometry and theory for years but basics like a solid alignment get u there 90% of the way.
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Old 06-23-2013, 04:40 PM   #20
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I am putting a set of Eibach Pro Kit progressive springs (#38144.140) on my car within the next few weeks. They are sitting in a box in my garage. I will never track my car, it is mainly just to piddle around town and go to the gym. I am expecting a little rougher ride vs an already rough riding car! I am lowering it to get rid of the 4x4 stance. These car companies put so much money into design and then leave a huge gap between the fender and wheels. I guess they are in the bed with the aftermarket companies!
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Old 06-23-2013, 06:23 PM   #21
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Dropspeed

Look with the parts that are out there wright now the only way to do it right is to put a set of coilovers on the car. No one making a shock and struts that have adjustable damping so you can have a chance to set up a set of lower springs so they work right . The spring you can pick from suck it not like were working with your old EVO (I had a EVO-8 ) where you had just a ton of stuff to pick from.

So in the short term till we get more stuff to pick from that spring even out the ride high , give you the most travel your going to get in the back of the car (only lowers it 1/2 inch) and the stock shock dose a good job with it. The cost is low if you don't like how it work change back .

My last car being a Mustang we had the same problem for some time now with the back end of the car and right now there a group of guys with Boss 302 that are running a liner rate spring in the front and a progressive spring in the back and tracking there car with out the world coming to a end. The only thing that most of them wanted was adjustable sway bars so they could set there under and oversteer to there liking for there tire set-up.

Now its it the best no, but it dose not mean it can not work even out on the track. ( noting trying to be a dick or rude I just think your over think it for what we got to work with)
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Old 06-23-2013, 08:28 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mgizzle View Post
Ur camber curve depends on ur linkage, so lowering it will follow same curve as not lowering it, gains could be different depending on where u start on curve. However, increasing static camber while lowering cg and having highere wheel rates, results in less roll.
I'm not exactly arguing with that, only that the gains in terms of reduced roll are less than what either the increase in spring rates or the lowered ride height would suggest. IOW, 20% - 35% stiffer springs as in OP's situation will not reduce roll by that much, nor would a 5% lower CG (about a 1" 'drop') result in a 5% reduction in roll if you held the spring rates constant.


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Hence you could have better camber at full lat gs due to this vs stock. Tires dont lie, and my tires at -1.4 are worn on the outside.
That certainly suggests that you're better off then you would be with OE springs, OE preferred camber, and OE ride height, even when I don't know what you've changed away from OE other than camber.

What that also tells me is that -1.4° isn't far enough negative for however enthusiastic your cornering is (hopefully there isn't a toe issue clouding the picture), while certainly not being too far negative for however much hard braking you do. But I'm not entirely surprised at your observation - I'm getting virtually dead-even wear across the treads of both my summer and winter tire sets with front cambers (also a strut suspension) set at -1.8°. Mostly enthusiastic street driving, so let's call that about 5/10ths, maybe 6/10ths on occasion.

A lowered car absolutely should be faster and drive better once you retune your static camber setting and all the other little things to work better at the lower ride height, instead of simply whacking an inch or so off the ride height, letting them fall wherever they may, and hoping for the best.


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Get the basic mechanical grip first, which is camber etc. And then you can worry about transient tools like dampers. Transients are for polishing lap times, ur lucky to get even half a second gain with perfectly set up dampers per lap vs. What comes onthe car.
I'll suggest that a lot of the 1LE's goodness comes from these refinements, and that transient behavior and "feel" are more what's noticed in the street part of one's driving.

Quarter turn adjustments with Koni single adjustables can make for noticeable improvements in overall composure, and slightly coarser adjustments are enough for me to note differences specifically in tire grip (making no other adjustments) . . . and I'm strictly an amateur at this sort of test-driver evaluation.


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Old 06-27-2013, 01:39 PM   #23
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Thank you for all of the responses and information.

I find it interesting that none of the forums suspension sponsors have chimed in.

-Matt
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Old 06-27-2013, 02:08 PM   #24
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Thank you for all of the responses and information.

I find it interesting that none of the forums suspension sponsors have chimed in.

-Matt
I was thinking the same thing. Almost disappointing that they have not at least said his concerns are unnecessary. At a minimum I expected a "for what you are looking for your only real option is coilovers" response. Instead they have all remained silent. I know they are busy but it's disappointing nonetheless.

Almost seems to add credibility to the argument that they are needed but not offered since most people just want the look. Why reengineer the right part if the one on the shelf is already selling. I hope one of them comes along soon to help clear things up.
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Old 06-27-2013, 02:44 PM   #25
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I was thinking the same thing. Almost disappointing that they have not at least said his concerns are unnecessary. At a minimum I expected a "for what you are looking for your only real option is coilovers" response. Instead they have all remained silent. I know they are busy but it's disappointing nonetheless.

Almost seems to add credibility to the argument that they are needed but not offered since most people just want the look. Why reengineer the right part if the one on the shelf is already selling. I hope one of them comes along soon to help clear things up.
I know the production numbers are not in, but possibly the volume of 1LE's produced does not warrant the engineering cost to develop the product?
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Old 06-27-2013, 05:28 PM   #26
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So we are out of luck with regards to lowering springs for our 1LE's? And I have a set of Pedders 1" lowering springs just sitting in the downstairs bedroom
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Old 06-27-2013, 06:19 PM   #27
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Post this in the suspension forum and I bet those vendors will see this and speak up.
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Old 06-27-2013, 08:11 PM   #28
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Do you guys think your lowering springs won't fit? Lol

I have a 1le and got a set of lowering springs. LG G5 Super Springs. they are advertised for 2010+ Camaro. They fit with no issues.

Just make sure after you install to retime the bushings and then align the car. Makes a huge difference over just slapping on the springs and not doing anything else.
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Old 06-27-2013, 08:47 PM   #29
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I know the production numbers are not in, but possibly the volume of 1LE's produced does not warrant the engineering cost to develop the product?
The 1LE will be the same from 2013-2015 so they may not be high numbers, but I am willing to bet the numbers of 1LE ordered increase in 2014 and again in 2015 as the package is so cheap.

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Do you guys think your lowering springs won't fit? Lol

I have a 1le and got a set of lowering springs. LG G5 Super Springs. they are advertised for 2010+ Camaro. They fit with no issues.

Just make sure after you install to retime the bushings and then align the car. Makes a huge difference over just slapping on the springs and not doing anything else.
Read the post, it has nothing to do with fitment it has to do with the fact that you installed a set-of springs that were designed for the 2010-2013 Camaro SS non-1LE which has inherent under steer issues. LG doesn't offer spring rates with the exception of saying "over 20% greater". You also installed a set of progress rate springs and replaced the stock linear rate springs. This is fine for a street driven car, but if you intend to track it you may have just degraded the handling of your 1LE. (Not to mention the fact that you lowered the car over 1.5" on stock struts which is a no/no) ...LOL at you!

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Post this in the suspension forum and I bet those vendors will see this and speak up.
I sent a direct PM to one of the manufacturers and have not received a response....

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So we are out of luck with regards to lowering springs for our 1LE's? And I have a set of Pedders 1" lowering springs just sitting in the downstairs bedroom
I'm not giving up hope yet....Pedders claims the spring rates are proprietary so I did not include them in this discussion as I have no idea what they are and without that info cannot make any sort of comparison
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Old 06-27-2013, 09:07 PM   #30
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Well this is the first year for the car (1LE) and there 2 more years to go .When the cars starts showing up at the tracks and people can see what the car can do I think you start seeing more parts for the cars showing up in the after market with a wider range of choice . My old mustang I had spring that lower the car 1/2" , 1" , 1 1/4 " and then there a bunch of shocks & struts to pick from . Right now for 1LE its coilovers or put a 1LE shock and struts with your lowering springs . I am hearing Koni going to make the STR.T line for the Camaro but for us 1LE guys that will be about the same as the 1LE stock shocks & struts need Koni yellows .
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Old 06-27-2013, 09:30 PM   #31
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I do think there a market for a 1/2 lower spring for the back of the car that keeps the same linear spring rate as the stock spring dose ( all you got to do is Look at the 55D springs for the Brembo GT mustang) . If there was one out there I would have gotten it. ZL1 rear spring is the only thing out there right now that drop the back a 1/2 inch to even out the ride high and I like trying diff. stuff .

For you , you may want a stiffer spring rate a 1/2 drop and some koni yellows .
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Old 06-27-2013, 10:08 PM   #32
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The 1LE will be the same from 2013-2015 so they may not be high numbers, but I am willing to bet the numbers of 1LE ordered increase in 2014 and again in 2015 as the package is so cheap.



Read the post, it has nothing to do with fitment it has to do with the fact that you installed a set-of springs that were designed for the 2010-2013 Camaro SS non-1LE which has inherent under steer issues. LG doesn't offer spring rates with the exception of saying "over 20% greater". You also installed a set of progress rate springs and replaced the stock linear rate springs. This is fine for a street driven car, but if you intend to track it you may have just degraded the handling of your 1LE. (Not to mention the fact that you lowered the car over 1.5" on stock struts which is a no/no) ...LOL at you!



I sent a direct PM to one of the manufacturers and have not received a response....



I'm not giving up hope yet....Pedders claims the spring rates are proprietary so I did not include them in this discussion as I have no idea what they are and without that info cannot make any sort of comparison
To each their own. I didn't decrease handling at all. Overall spring rate is still stiffer. I upgraded the F/R Swaybars and endlinks as well. So now I have even looking ride height, overall better ride quality, and lots of adjustment within my sway bars and endlinks!

If a 2 second decrease in lap time at the big track of Willow Springs is a decrease in handling according to your speculation...

I bought the car to daily drive during the week and track on the weekends. I have the best of both worlds now. Better street ride quality and better handling at the track.
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Old 06-28-2013, 12:28 AM   #33
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Dropspeed

I do think there a market for a 1/2 lower spring for the back of the car that keeps the same linear spring rate as the stock spring dose ( all you got to do is Look at the 55D springs for the Brembo GT mustang) . If there was one out there I would have gotten it. ZL1 rear spring is the only thing out there right now that drop the back a 1/2 inch to even out the ride high and I like trying diff. stuff .

For you , you may want a stiffer spring rate a 1/2 drop and some koni yellows .

I keep running the ZL1 rear spring through my head over and over and for the minimal investment (and against my better judgement) I may try it just to see what happens.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgreenberg View Post
To each their own. I didn't decrease handling at all. Overall spring rate is still stiffer. I upgraded the F/R Swaybars and endlinks as well. So now I have even looking ride height, overall better ride quality, and lots of adjustment within my sway bars and endlinks!

If a 2 second decrease in lap time at the big track of Willow Springs is a decrease in handling according to your speculation...

I bought the car to daily drive during the week and track on the weekends. I have the best of both worlds now. Better street ride quality and better handling at the track.
It sounds like you changed springs and swaybars at the same time so you don't truly know how the car would have reacted with just the LG springs. It very well could have been 3 seconds faster with just the swaybars and is actually 1 second slower with the springs...(I am aware that is not a direct ratio...but you get the point)

The big track @ WS is 2.5 miles. 2 second decrease on a 2.5 mile track in a street car can be any attributed to any number of variables including track temps, air temps, alignment setting, fresh rubber, seat time ect. It does not necessarily mean your springs are correct or helped. The sway bars may be doing more work now and that is where you gained your performance.

For your situation your set-up sounds like it works for you. This doesn't change that fact that your springs were designed for a platform that under steers and most consumers are more concerned with stance or looks than performance....I am not willing to settle just yet.

-Matt
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Old 06-28-2013, 03:33 AM   #34
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I keep running the ZL1 rear spring through my head over and over and for the minimal investment (and against my better judgement) I may try it just to see what happens.....



It sounds like you changed springs and swaybars at the same time so you don't truly know how the car would have reacted with just the LG springs. It very well could have been 3 seconds faster with just the swaybars and is actually 1 second slower with the springs...(I am aware that is not a direct ratio...but you get the point)

The big track @ WS is 2.5 miles. 2 second decrease on a 2.5 mile track in a street car can be any attributed to any number of variables including track temps, air temps, alignment setting, fresh rubber, seat time ect. It does not necessarily mean your springs are correct or helped. The sway bars may be doing more work now and that is where you gained your performance.

For your situation your set-up sounds like it works for you. This doesn't change that fact that your springs were designed for a platform that under steers and most consumers are more concerned with stance or looks than performance....I am not willing to settle just yet.

-Matt
Sway bars came first, then the springs a few weeks later. I didn't notice anything too different other than initially softer on compression.

As far as seat time I am pretty experienced, I hold an SCCA Pro License, so plenty of seat time... I know that's not the issue. This isn't a race car by any means, but indeed a very capable street car that does well and feels comfortable on the track. If I were to track the car more of course I would put a proper coil over, at least 2 way adjustable. But I have dedicated track cars so there is no point.

If I were you I would just get a street coil over so you can have whatever spring rate you would like and whatever amount of drop as well.
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