Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Members Area > General Automotive + Other Cars Discussion

General Automotive + Other Cars Discussion Come chat about other cars.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-29-2008, 03:41 PM   #1
Silverado
GM Guy For Life
 
Drives: 2010 GMC Yukon XL
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 1,021
No more ricing Nissans....

.....straight from the factory.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/02/29/n...th-perfection/

Finally, a manufacturer is telling these people that you can't make our car better by adding a body kit, some wings, and a coffee can exhuast pipe.

Now, if only Honda would explain to it's owners that no matter what kit you add, no matter how big your rear wing is, no matter how neon you put under your car, it is still just a Civic.
Silverado is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-2008, 03:56 PM   #2
Rock36
I just like V8s
 
Rock36's Avatar
 
Drives: 2007 Corvette Z06
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
Posts: 919
They said "kickassedness"
__________________
"Anyone know who sells the driver mods?"

2007 Corvette Z06: Le Mans blue, 2LZ

Rock36 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-2008, 04:52 PM   #3
bouncertime
Miller High Life
 
bouncertime's Avatar
 
Drives: 2009 Silverado and 2007 Cobalt SS
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 1,647
That's awesome, but it still won't stop the tuners from screwing up the car.
__________________
Jimmy
bouncertime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-2008, 05:15 PM   #4
DGthe3
Moderator.ca
 
DGthe3's Avatar
 
Drives: 05 Grand Am GT
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Niagara, Canada
Posts: 21,913
Send a message via MSN to DGthe3
People can rice their nissans all they want. I don't care, it provides some amusement to me. The people that really need to stop are the ones that own sunfires, cavaliers, and neons. Its expected on imports, well sort of. But not on domestic compacts. However, this type of warning should come with the Camaro. Anyone who fails to comply should have to face
__________________
Note, if I've gotten any facts wrong in the above, just ignore any points I made with them
__________________
don't believe a thing you read about the next gen Camaro -- as history has proven time and time again:

WE DO NOT TALK ABOUT FUTURE PRODUCT PLANS PERIOD FbodFather
__________________

Camaro5 Fest sub-forum
DGthe3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-2008, 05:58 PM   #5
SilverTurtle
Reality Check Specialist
 
SilverTurtle's Avatar
 
Drives: '02 Z28, 2012 45th SS
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: ATX
Posts: 1,723
Send a message via AIM to SilverTurtle Send a message via Yahoo to SilverTurtle
I am seriously considering ordering one of those shirts in black... lol
__________________
got tequila?
SilverTurtle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-2008, 08:45 PM   #6
Kyle2k
LVL 50 Troll Stomper
 
Kyle2k's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Grand Forks, ND
Posts: 3,248
I'm completely against rice, but these things could deffintely be tunes to be SOOOOO much better...even if it involves a "fart can" don't tell that to the guy driving it though because you would get raped by this thing on the road...whether you have a 5th gen muscle car or not.
Kyle2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-2008, 09:21 PM   #7
Mr. Wyndham
I used to be Dragoneye...
 
Mr. Wyndham's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 Camaro 1LE
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 25,787
Send a message via AIM to Mr. Wyndham
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle2k View Post
I'm completely against rice, but these things could deffintely be tunes to be SOOOOO much better...even if it involves a "fart can" don't tell that to the guy driving it though because you would get raped by this thing on the road...whether you have a 5th gen muscle car or not.
If I was ever in an area that I'd encounter one...I'd probably be rather "well-off"; So I'd have a ZR-1 to defend whatever comes out of my mouth There's no raping that thing!
__________________
"Keep the faith." - - Read Before You Post.
SIGN UP for 2014 Camaro5 HPDE @ Gingerman Raceway!
Mr. Wyndham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-2008, 10:17 PM   #8
Kyle2k
LVL 50 Troll Stomper
 
Kyle2k's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Grand Forks, ND
Posts: 3,248
Haha, well...it would be close...If....you didn't spin through the first 3 gears...gluck with that though.

Sorry I don't wan't to sound against muscle/america...so please, no one take this down the slippery slope, but the GT-R is deffinetly the new performance bargain on the block...we'll see how the C7 does.
Kyle2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-2008, 10:29 PM   #9
Mr. Wyndham
I used to be Dragoneye...
 
Mr. Wyndham's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 Camaro 1LE
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 25,787
Send a message via AIM to Mr. Wyndham
No, no. I would never take it that way. And nobody else will, either After all, if you were anti "muscle/America" you wouldn't be here in the first place.

But, in all honesty...I see nothing special about this GT-R...nothing at all. Nothing about it seems groundbreaking to me. I think it's butt-ugly, I can't say anything about the inside. The powertrain is nothing 'new'.... I guess I just don't want to care, either........

Even if it outran the Veyron; I'd prolly still shrug like this guy >
__________________
"Keep the faith." - - Read Before You Post.
SIGN UP for 2014 Camaro5 HPDE @ Gingerman Raceway!
Mr. Wyndham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-2008, 10:43 PM   #10
09'Z28
The "Mad Hamster"
 
09'Z28's Avatar
 
Drives: '71 Camaro, '90 mx5, '71 2002
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Placerville, CA
Posts: 1,750
yep its defiantly ugly the last one was better
__________________
09'Z28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-2008, 10:55 PM   #11
DGthe3
Moderator.ca
 
DGthe3's Avatar
 
Drives: 05 Grand Am GT
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Niagara, Canada
Posts: 21,913
Send a message via MSN to DGthe3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
No, no. I would never take it that way. And nobody else will, either After all, if you were anti "muscle/America" you wouldn't be here in the first place.

But, in all honesty...I see nothing special about this GT-R...nothing at all. Nothing about it seems groundbreaking to me. I think it's butt-ugly, I can't say anything about the inside. The powertrain is nothing 'new'.... I guess I just don't want to care, either........

Even if it outran the Veyron; I'd prolly still shrug like this guy >
I just can't figure out how it manages to run with the Z06. Less power, less torque, more weight, worse weight distribution. Sure it has all wheel drive which will help with launches and also a bit with cornering, but will reduce the amount of power to be had at the wheel. There is no way that the handling will be improved enough to fully compensate for the increased weight. Power to weight is lower than the base corvette, let alone the Z06. That could be helped by lower gear ratios, which would give it horrible gas mileage and a lower top speed. Drag coefficient will be lower than the Corvettes, so that would help things a bit. But overall, the numbers just don't seem to add up. Unless there is some sort of magical powers that all wheel drive posesses that I'm unaware of.
__________________
Note, if I've gotten any facts wrong in the above, just ignore any points I made with them
__________________
don't believe a thing you read about the next gen Camaro -- as history has proven time and time again:

WE DO NOT TALK ABOUT FUTURE PRODUCT PLANS PERIOD FbodFather
__________________

Camaro5 Fest sub-forum
DGthe3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-2008, 11:06 PM   #12
Kyle2k
LVL 50 Troll Stomper
 
Kyle2k's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Grand Forks, ND
Posts: 3,248
Well, DCT is one, second thing I could think of is the fact that AWD systems are getting more and more efficient...The funny thing I think you bring up is that it's not ground breaking. Were you serious about that, twin turbo AWD, DCT, launch assist for under a base price of $70k dollars...that is supercar territory my friend...not to mention the fact that this car hits over 400ftlbs of torque by something like 1700rpm...I really can't see how you don't think it is ground breaking...even if it is an ugly duckling.
Kyle2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-2008, 11:36 PM   #13
SilverTurtle
Reality Check Specialist
 
SilverTurtle's Avatar
 
Drives: '02 Z28, 2012 45th SS
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: ATX
Posts: 1,723
Send a message via AIM to SilverTurtle Send a message via Yahoo to SilverTurtle
I can tell you how it kept up, and surpassed, the Z06 on the 'Ring: the boost was turned up and the tires were slicks... when the Z06 did the 'Ring test, it was running on run flats, which are notorious for not holding the road very well... if you've ever watched the video of the GT-R lapping the 'Ring, you'll hear the tires... they're definitely race slicks.
__________________
got tequila?
SilverTurtle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2008, 12:08 AM   #14
Kyle2k
LVL 50 Troll Stomper
 
Kyle2k's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Grand Forks, ND
Posts: 3,248
Ugh...some people just can't give credit were credit is due...I hope you have an excuse for the girl sitting next to you if you ever come up to a red light with one of those...
Kyle2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2008, 12:58 AM   #15
Mr. Wyndham
I used to be Dragoneye...
 
Mr. Wyndham's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 Camaro 1LE
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 25,787
Send a message via AIM to Mr. Wyndham
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle2k View Post
Well, DCT is one, second thing I could think of is the fact that AWD systems are getting more and more efficient...The funny thing I think you bring up is that it's not ground breaking. Were you serious about that, twin turbo AWD, DCT, launch assist for under a base price of $70k dollars...that is supercar territory my friend...not to mention the fact that this car hits over 400ftlbs of torque by something like 1700rpm...I really can't see how you don't think it is ground breaking...even if it is an ugly duckling.
I was serious. I've seen it all before (ferrari/Lambo/BMW?) with their DCT's. Chrysler's putting one in their Minivans for heavens sakes. Twin Turbos are old news in my book...Now, that's not to say that I've ever seen all these things together in this particular setup...but still .....That's why I don't understand why folks think this is some divinely created car... I just don't get it. And, personally....I don't think it's going to stand up to any serious use - all that for the price is a selling point (but something's gotta give. And we all know the equation: Power, Quality, Price...pick two.)

As for credit: YES! it's a fast car. It's got very impressive charactersitics...but that doesn't mean I'm going to hold it up on a pedestal. I see no reason, I just can't do it.

EDIT: supposedly the Drag Coeffiecient is .27 on the GT-R...and it's .28 on the C6 Vette. Is that enough to explain the performance differences?? I'm just not sure, so I thought I'd ask.
__________________
"Keep the faith." - - Read Before You Post.
SIGN UP for 2014 Camaro5 HPDE @ Gingerman Raceway!
Mr. Wyndham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2008, 01:06 AM   #16
KILLER74Z28
MOD SQUAD
 
KILLER74Z28's Avatar
 
Drives: 2G1FT1EW9A9100666
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: West Michigan
Posts: 5,662
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverTurtle View Post
I am seriously considering ordering one of those shirts in black... lol
Me too. those shirts are "kickassedness"...
__________________

Who cares about the Blue Oval crowd and their little Ponys? We're getting our Camaro back-and it'll be Supercharged!-MDAII
Team LS3
KILLER74Z28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2008, 01:11 AM   #17
KILLER74Z28
MOD SQUAD
 
KILLER74Z28's Avatar
 
Drives: 2G1FT1EW9A9100666
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: West Michigan
Posts: 5,662
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle2k View Post
Haha, well...it would be close...If....you didn't spin through the first 3 gears...gluck with that though.

Sorry I don't wan't to sound against muscle/america...so please, no one take this down the slippery slope, but the GT-R is deffinetly the new performance bargain on the block...we'll see how the C7 does.
How is it a “performance bargain” at 129G's +???

Nissan dealers could charge up to $129,000 for GT-R
Posted Jan 31st 2008 12:32PM by Damon Lavrinc
Filed under: Car Buying, Sports/GTs, Supercars, Nissan

We knew it was bound to happen, but we didn't know to what extent Nissan dealers would be gouging enthusiasts here in the States for the first legal taste of GT-R goodness. Our friend Ty over at ExhuastNote.com decided to do some leg work to find out what markup retailers would be charging for the new Nissan GT-R, and after calling 15 dealerships throughout California, Florida, Illinois, Texas, Virginia and Washington the markups ranged from $20,000 to $60,000 over the GT-R's $69k base price. As Ty pointed out, that could get you a new 350Z and a Sentra.

With only 1,500 examples being available during the first year, this is no real surprise. Supply and demand is in full effect, and for the time being, only the most financially solvent and patient among us will be able to get their hands on Nissan's newest "notness".
__________________

Who cares about the Blue Oval crowd and their little Ponys? We're getting our Camaro back-and it'll be Supercharged!-MDAII
Team LS3
KILLER74Z28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2008, 01:20 AM   #18
SilverTurtle
Reality Check Specialist
 
SilverTurtle's Avatar
 
Drives: '02 Z28, 2012 45th SS
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: ATX
Posts: 1,723
Send a message via AIM to SilverTurtle Send a message via Yahoo to SilverTurtle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle2k View Post
Ugh...some people just can't give credit were credit is due...I hope you have an excuse for the girl sitting next to you if you ever come up to a red light with one of those...
when we see some times for a C6Z06 with race slicks on it, I'll give it some credit... when we see some numbers from the street tests, I'll give it some credit... when we see that this car can last as a daily driver like a C6 Z06 can, I'll give it some credit... until then, its just another fast car in a world of fast cars.

and I'll never need to make an excuase because I'll never come up against one of these cars at a redlight... mostly because the people who own them will be well and away farther from sitting at red lights in my neck of the woods... and besides, every time I've seen something like an R33 or 22b, I've been in the Tahoe... which we all know is just roadkill for cars like that... so why would my luck change now that Nissan is offering a $70+k sports car in America?
__________________
got tequila?
SilverTurtle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2008, 01:31 AM   #19
DGthe3
Moderator.ca
 
DGthe3's Avatar
 
Drives: 05 Grand Am GT
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Niagara, Canada
Posts: 21,913
Send a message via MSN to DGthe3
I count the base price as being the real price, not the massive markups that people pay. The ZR-1 will have similar issues. It will be hard to get one without paying 150k. But still, those prices for that level of performance is a 'good deal'. The only other car with as much bang for the buck is the Viper. Everthing else thats below 150k will most likely get beat by these cars. Thats impressive to me.

Of course, somone could take a new Camaro, supercharge it (plus everthing else you need to do to get it over 700 hp, and handle the power), upgrade the brakes and suspension, gut the interior, and it should beat any of those cars for less money. But thats apples to oranges. A fully tuned civic could beat a stock Camaro too.
__________________
Note, if I've gotten any facts wrong in the above, just ignore any points I made with them
__________________
don't believe a thing you read about the next gen Camaro -- as history has proven time and time again:

WE DO NOT TALK ABOUT FUTURE PRODUCT PLANS PERIOD FbodFather
__________________

Camaro5 Fest sub-forum
DGthe3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2008, 11:25 AM   #20
Kyle2k
LVL 50 Troll Stomper
 
Kyle2k's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Grand Forks, ND
Posts: 3,248
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverTurtle View Post
when we see some times for a C6Z06 with race slicks on it, I'll give it some credit... when we see some numbers from the street tests, I'll give it some credit... when we see that this car can last as a daily driver like a C6 Z06 can, I'll give it some credit... until then, its just another fast car in a world of fast cars.

and I'll never need to make an excuase because I'll never come up against one of these cars at a redlight... mostly because the people who own them will be well and away farther from sitting at red lights in my neck of the woods... and besides, every time I've seen something like an R33 or 22b, I've been in the Tahoe... which we all know is just roadkill for cars like that... so why would my luck change now that Nissan is offering a $70+k sports car in America?

Well...go to insideline.com right now and go look up the numbers...they have already been done...I enjoy how its like, well, give this guy some slicks and he'll do this...NO...I'm talking stock for stock right now. Furthermore about the daily driver stuff...they mention that too. It is all in a video
Kyle2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2008, 02:10 PM   #21
CaptianSam
Car Garage
 
CaptianSam's Avatar
 
Drives: 350z,A4,SRT8...see sig
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: north west
Posts: 832
first off there is nothing wrong with TASTEFUL rice-ing... alla ...my twin turbo 350z... i dont go ripping around with body kits and ugly wings... but my 350z does low 12's on stock wheels and tires... (track pack) however the GTR 'IS' not the bargain performance cars to end all... instead... it is a piece of asian technology and is thier take on the pinnicle of "affordable" supercars...viper, z06 are in this category the skyline does embark on some extremely radical and GROUNDBREAKING technology... the polyphony digital race display to the all wheel drive ALL WHEEL STEER... most people in here bash the car (i for one dont hate or love the radical styling) but you need to give some credit to them for making a super fast car (911 turbo fast) at half the price... although this comes at the cost of mediocre interior... alla z06, viper... i have a viper... it has the same radio head unit as my moms caravan...and i had a c5 vette the interior wasn't AMAZING.. i would compare the GTR and Z06 and viper together even though the gtr is only a 3.7 turbo...
all have mediocre interior, are pure performace bred and cost around 100G's
or even a ZR-1
the VQ37 is going to be bomb strong and reliable the car is going handle AMAZING its got weight BUT it's super fast and holds .95 g's (i think)
technology vs muscle
__________________
2012 2SS RS Ordered
Black on Black 6 speed Coupe Artic Lid Stripes
Yes I Supercharge Everything

On My Ipad
Xbox McLovin1515
Ps3 McLovin1555
Current Autos:68z28,03viperSRT10,04escalade,05RangeRoverSport SC
Project Autos:80corvette350-500hp 6speed,06charger S'C 6-speed posi,74Firebird400blue,69chevelle572 707
New Autos:2012CamaroSSRS,09ChallengerSRT8
Past Autos:....too many to list

"i told you it was gettin' an LS3"
Go down deep enough into anything and you will find mathematics. Dean Schlicter
B.Sc. Hons. Mathematics
CaptianSam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2008, 02:20 PM   #22
Kyle2k
LVL 50 Troll Stomper
 
Kyle2k's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Grand Forks, ND
Posts: 3,248
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptianSam View Post
first off there is nothing wrong with TASTEFUL rice-ing... alla ...my twin turbo 350z... i dont go ripping around with body kits and ugly wings... but my 350z does low 12's on stock wheels and tires... (track pack) however the GTR 'IS' not the bargain performance cars to end all... instead... it is a piece of asian technology and is thier take on the pinnicle of "affordable" supercars...viper, z06 are in this category the skyline does embark on some extremely radical and GROUNDBREAKING technology... the polyphony digital race display to the all wheel drive ALL WHEEL STEER... most people in here bash the car (i for one dont hate or love the radical styling) but you need to give some credit to them for making a super fast car (911 turbo fast) at half the price... although this comes at the cost of mediocre interior... alla z06, viper... i have a viper... it has the same radio head unit as my moms caravan...and i had a c5 vette the interior wasn't AMAZING.. i would compare the GTR and Z06 and viper together even though the gtr is only a 3.7 turbo...
all have mediocre interior, are pure performace bred and cost around 100G's
or even a ZR-1
the VQ37 is going to be bomb strong and reliable the car is going handle AMAZING its got weight BUT it's super fast and holds .95 g's (i think)
technology vs muscle
How old are you? Your parents must be very well off by the pure sake that you own 11 cars. Your insurance payments must be so rediculously crazy that I can't even imagine what they do, even if they were both doctors all those cars would probably be well over 20k every 6 months....thats for sure...secondly, the GT-R doesnt use a VQ series engine and it is 3.8 liters...not 3.7
Kyle2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2008, 04:03 PM   #23
SilverTurtle
Reality Check Specialist
 
SilverTurtle's Avatar
 
Drives: '02 Z28, 2012 45th SS
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: ATX
Posts: 1,723
Send a message via AIM to SilverTurtle Send a message via Yahoo to SilverTurtle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle2k View Post
Well...go to insideline.com right now and go look up the numbers...they have already been done...I enjoy how its like, well, give this guy some slicks and he'll do this...NO...I'm talking stock for stock right now. Furthermore about the daily driver stuff...they mention that too. It is all in a video
I see what you're talking about on insideline.com, but I've got some points that I want you to acknowledge when you are trying to tell us that the car deserves more credit than we are giving it.

go to this link and this link and you will find that they are "targetting" or making "at least" power claims... to me, this means that nothing has been set in stone... to me, this means that what they did at the 'Ring was not what will be available on the streets of the US... and I can PROMISE you that the car was on slicks when it was at the 'Ring because you can tell by the sound of the tires at their limits... its just a simple fact, man... you can make a car go fast in a straight line if you put better tires on it... and the Z06 does its business with runflats and the GT-R does it with regular street tires... there are guys putting Michelin PS2 tires on Z06s and running 3.3 seconds to 60 and in the 10s in the quarter (or faster, since here's a guy doing 10s on runflats at MIR link to Z06 in the 10s )


make no mistake, I have NO loyalty to only American muscle... I drive a Civic Si for a daily driver, for crying out loud... but when you dont compare apples to apples, you dont get a fair comparison... the GT-R is a GREAT performance value for the money, but dont expect me, or anyone else here, to accpet it as better than a Z06 or ZR1... like I've said before, and no matter the technology that it uses (which, I might add, is quite impressive), the GT-R is just another fast car in a world of fast cars.
__________________
got tequila?
SilverTurtle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2008, 07:03 PM   #24
MCPOAJ
 
Drives: NOTHING
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: NE.
Posts: 674
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle2k View Post
Ugh...some people just can't give credit were credit is due...I hope you have an excuse for the girl sitting next to you if you ever come up to a red light with one of those...

don't worry when i'm riding in a car that has a ZZ572 deluxe 720R i won't need excuses
MCPOAJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2008, 07:17 PM   #25
Kyle2k
LVL 50 Troll Stomper
 
Kyle2k's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Grand Forks, ND
Posts: 3,248
I don't know what that is lol, please enlighten me. Oh nevermind a crate engine...good luck fitting a 572 in there though...same goes for keeping traction and not breaking something you better hope hes dumb enough to not race from a dig, the same "ricers" won't be driving these cars either...they are 70k cars, hopefully the guy behind the wheel will be smart enough, I'd sure hope so if hes making enough to afford one of those.
Kyle2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.