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Camaro V8 LS3 / L99 Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons Bolt-Ons | Intakes | Exhaust

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Old 06-26-2013, 02:16 PM   #1
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Take me to School (Informative)

This is actually a play off of MC_Acoustic's thread. I want to clear some things up and also make sure My own understanding is correct. So If im wrong in any part of this please correct me.

In the thread the original question was a bit misinterpreted but posed a great question. Without actual internal modification or Force Induction can you produce more RWHP than GM has advertised for that particular engine. To put it simply...using the LS3 as an example the SAE rating for it is 426. Would it be possible for RWHP to surpass that. My understanding was No.

Keep in mind I know that when you increase RWHP it also increases Crank Horsepower. So obviously at 400 RWHP crank horsepower is no longer at 426 to the crank. With that being said when adding simple bolt - ons like Headers, CAI, Exhaust systems etc..The engine output never changes. Key word being Engine Output. All we are doing is making parts less restrictive and better flowing. The engine never actually works any harder. Just more efficiently. The engine is working just as much as it was when it was creating 426 Crank HP.

Then we have mods that help directly with the parasitic loss from the drivetrain. Like for example the Underdrive pulley. This mod doesn't add hp, but frees it up.

Any more input would be greatly appreciated...sorry was getting a bit annoyed with people misinterpreting the other thread after the OP had cleared things up.

And If i'm completely wrong with my interpretation and understanding please let me know. I'm wearing my flame suit for added protection


Mod edit: TL: DR: Can you take an LS3 with boltons (no nitrous, no cam, no forced induction) and get to 426 rwhp?
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Old 06-26-2013, 02:32 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FaytalsCamaro View Post
To put it simply...using the LS3 as an example the SAE rating for it is 426. Would it be possible for RWHP to surpass that. My understanding was No.
RWHP isn't 426 stock for an LS3.
Using simple math 426*.15=63.9
426-63.9=362.

So there is roughly 362 RWHP for a stock LS3.
Bolt-ons will increase RWHP because of better air flow as you have mentioned which help to mitigate the power loss through the drivetrain.

I am not sure what your question is because you seem to know how crank HP and RWHP relate.
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Old 06-26-2013, 02:42 PM   #3
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I never said 426 was the RWHP for a stock LS3. I said the SAE rating was. My question or i should say statement is without internal engine modifications or Force Induction your RWHP as an example the LS3 will not be able to surpass 426 by alot. Have to factor in different readings from Dynos.
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Old 06-26-2013, 03:05 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by FaytalsCamaro View Post
I never said 426 was the RWHP for a stock LS3. I said the SAE rating was. My question or i should say statement is without internal engine modifications or Force Induction your RWHP as an example the LS3 will not be able to surpass 426 by alot. Have to factor in different readings from Dynos.
Sure you can surpass 426 RWHP by quite a bit with just Headers, CAI and Cam.
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Old 06-26-2013, 03:08 PM   #5
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So, you're basically asking if you can make up the parasitic drivetrain HP loss with only external bolt-ons, correct? As "Dynamite" pointed out, that would be very roughly about 64 HP on an LS3. I've heard claims of some brands of headers/tune boasting 50HP gains, but I think maybe 40HP is probably more realistic. In my opinion, I think you would be hard-pressed to gain 64HP with strictly bolt-ons, without using internal mods of some kind, or at least an UD pulley. And you're absolutely correct, the variation from different dynos would affect this greatly.
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Old 06-26-2013, 03:08 PM   #6
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Sure you can surpass 426 RWHP by quite a bit with just Headers, CAI and Cam.
Cam is an internal mod....the OP was asking strictly about external bolt-ons. Not sure if that includes an UD pulley or not???
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Old 06-26-2013, 03:12 PM   #7
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He meant can the RWHP ever surpass the crank HP of the engine... The answer is NO...

The drivetrain loss remains somewhat constant. When you add mods to the engine, the loss does not decrease. What you are doing is increasing the power output of the engine, which in turn increases the RWHP.
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Old 06-26-2013, 03:17 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by SlingShot View Post
He meant can the RWHP ever surpass the crank HP of the engine... The answer is NO...

The drivetrain loss remains somewhat constant. When you add mods to the engine, the loss does not decrease. What you are doing is increasing the power output of the engine, which in turn increases the RWHP.
What I actually was trying to say was it is not possible for the RWHP to surpass the Factory SAE ratings without internal engine modifications or Force Induction.

Example like before the LS3. It is rated at 426 HP the sae rating aka Crank HP for it. The RWHP will not surpass 426 without internal modification or force induction by much. I say that last bit "by much" because of the various dyno readings
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Old 06-26-2013, 03:18 PM   #9
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Dont think I have seen a post from you Jose lol
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Old 06-26-2013, 03:21 PM   #10
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I am so lost. your RWHP will never surpass your crank horsepower...ever.
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Old 06-26-2013, 03:30 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by PoorMansCamaro View Post
I am so lost. your RWHP will never surpass your crank horsepower...ever.
Rofl

Hmm...let me try a different way

The LS3 Camaro produces 426 HP STOCK. This is at the Crank aka the SAE rating for our vehicle.

The average RWHP it is anywhere from 360 - 375 on average.

What I'm trying to say is without Internal Modifcations to the engine or Force Induction like Cams, turbos, Supercharging etc...Your RWHP will not go much past 426 RWHP.

The reason is 426 is the rating before alot of the parasitic loss of the drivetrain which is usually about 15-18%. Add that loss in and thats how we get RWHP. So It doesnt make sense how by adding on bolt ons would allow you to surpass 426 RWHP by much because with out Force Induction or Internal Engine Modification you have not increased how hard that engine is working. You more or less have made the supporting parts less restricted
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Old 06-26-2013, 03:49 PM   #12
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so lets see if I understand this

SAE crank 426
to the wheels 370

Can you get 426 to the wheels without internal mods?

I think it is possible.

When you do bolt on's you are not relieving the drag from the drivetrain you are simply increasing air in and air out which makes more power.

with a 15% loss from the drivetrain you would need to produce 64hp....

OR

42/43 hp AND reduce the drag from the powertrain by 5%.

(example, wheels, driveshaft, etc)

If you look at the 1LE's they are putting down about 90% of the flywheel power to the ground. (about 380-385)
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Old 06-26-2013, 04:31 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FaytalsCamaro View Post
With that being said when adding simple bolt - ons like Headers, CAI, Exhaust systems etc..The engine output never changes. Key word being Engine Output. All we are doing is making parts less restrictive and better flowing.
...I'm still not seeing the point of this discussion, but the above statement is not true. Since the LS3 (with its headers and intake) is rated as a system, changing parts of the system will also change its output.
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Old 06-26-2013, 04:34 PM   #14
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Your old pal from the other thread here. Look up a horsepower tv episode where they buy a crate ls3 and hook it up to an engine dyno. 490hp were their results.
Mind=blown yet? they didn't have any water pump or power steering pump or alternator or ac compressor or idler pulley or anything else. So it's possible to make more power than the factory rating
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Old 06-26-2013, 04:47 PM   #15
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Your old pal from the other thread here. Look up a horsepower tv episode where they buy a crate ls3 and hook it up to an engine dyno. 490hp were their results.
Mind=blown yet? they didn't have any water pump or power steering pump or alternator or ac compressor or idler pulley or anything else. So it's possible to make more power than the factory rating
That has nothing to do with bolt ons. Of course a factory engine with nothing attached is gonna make that much more over an engine in an actual vehicle.

What I'm saying is you won't get very much past the factory crank rating with rwhp without internal engine modifications or FI

But if you want to use the engine alone by itself...490 hp is what the engine Dyno got. That is the max for that engine. What is the RWHP rating for a car at 490 crank? Around 420-430

Last edited by FaytalsCamaro; 06-26-2013 at 05:03 PM.
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Old 06-26-2013, 04:49 PM   #16
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like someone else said, the SAE rating is of the stock engine with all of the stock accessories, so if you improve on those stock accessories, then the engine will make more power. So for example, if stock SAE rating is 426 and you put headers on that increase flow say by 30 hp, then if the same engine was dynoed again, the SAE rating with the new headers would then be 456. SAE is just a standard rating method. That's how the factory changes the stock SAE rating, by improving flow through better headers, air intakes, etc.... Basically the same way we do.
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Old 06-26-2013, 05:01 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FaytalsCamaro View Post
That has nothing to do with bolt ons. Of course a factory engine with nothing attached is gonna make that much more over an engine in an actual vehicle.

What I'm saying is you won't get very much past the factory crank rating with rwhp without internal engine modifications or FI
It has everything to do with the question assuming a 15% power loss you need 501 hp to get to your 426 sae. So 490 (electric power steering, electric water pump, no a/c), running without an alternator even (1/4mile drag do it all the time),+ proper exhaust, underdrive pulley, proper tune, will get you well over the 501 needed. The 426 sae is rated with all accesory drive and a longevity based tune. Yes there is an extent in which you won't get any more power but you can certainly beat the 426
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Old 06-26-2013, 05:01 PM   #18
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Are you asking if the theoretical maximum output to the rear wheels is limited to the original SAE rating of 426 HP with just bolt on modificatoins?
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Old 06-26-2013, 05:10 PM   #19
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Are you asking if the theoretical maximum output to the rear wheels is limited to the original SAE rating of 426 HP with just bolt on modificatoins?
Yea that's what I'm stating! With simple bolt ons. Obviously with the different settings of dynos that we use you may see a few hp + or - of 426 but for the most part without a internal modifications to the engine or FI that's the limit. With the exception of factory freaks.
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Old 06-26-2013, 05:13 PM   #20
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The short answer is, yes. Headers, CAI, scoop, and underdrive pulley will get you damn close, with a tune. No internals.
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Old 06-26-2013, 05:29 PM   #21
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The LS3ís SAE rating of 426 HP is by no means a maximum limit to how much power that engine can produce at the rear wheels. The SAE rating is just given so that we can compare the expected output from one engine to another in a stock form. (some LS3ís will make more power and some will make less) It isnít as if itís an immutable physical law like the speed of light. Many external modifications in combination can surpass the SAE 426 HP rating so that the vehicle will produce more than 426 HP at the rear wheels.
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Old 06-26-2013, 05:49 PM   #22
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The LS3’s SAE rating of 426 HP is by no means a maximum limit to how much power that engine can produce at the rear wheels. The SAE rating is just given so that we can compare the expected output from one engine to another in a stock form. (some LS3’s will make more power and some will make less) It isn’t as if it’s an immutable physical law like the speed of light. Many external modifications in combination can surpass the SAE 426 HP rating so that the vehicle will produce more than 426 HP at the rear wheels.
Let me say this I've tried to make it clear that there are factory freaks and dynos not being really standardized that can change up the numbers a bit. But for the most part you won't get passed that 426 by much. By much I mean if your Camaro is let's say 365 at the wheels your not gonna see north of 430-435 by doing simple bolt ons. If you have a factory freak and are putting down 380 at the wheel baseline. Then the 426 obviously doesn't apply to you cause your car is a freak lol. Not gonna see more than 450-455 at the wheel with simple bolt ons. That make sense at all? At least that has been my understanding
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Old 06-26-2013, 05:51 PM   #23
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SO you get a CAI for 16 h.p., a nice set of headers for 35 hp, and better flowing exhaust with x pipe free flowing more 10 hp, a tune 20 h.p. add that up and your at 426+16+35+10+20= 507 minus parasitic loss due to IRS etc....and no problem your above 426 to the rear wheels, there are people on here with more than that and just bolt ons. Then consider things you can do that are sort of a bolt on....change rear end gear....good for about 1/2 second in the quarter mile, change the intake manifold ....spendy but much to want as the stock manifold is great and the gain is only a couple h.p. for a thousand bucks and a different torque range...., A ported throttle body...10 h.p. maybe.....and just a couple hundred bucks...worth it....etc
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Old 06-26-2013, 05:54 PM   #24
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And if me using the LS3 is confusing people think of it this way. Whatever your car does on a Dyno completely stick, multiply by .85 to find the crank hp. That number you get, you won't be able to get very much above that without more serious mods
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Old 06-26-2013, 06:07 PM   #25
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Here's a question for you faytal. Why would you want to know if you can make more than the 426 at the wheels with external mods/forced induction. There are two analogies I can think of that may help you.

First one:
Imagine you're lifting a sac of bricks by a length of rope. You can pick up a 200 lb sack of bricks by yourself, but that's as much as you can lift.
No take that sack of bricks with rope and attach it to multiple pulleys. Now you can lift 2000 lbs of bricks. You aren't any stronger, but you're working easier to lift the sack of bricks. Same premise behind engines and here's why.

Second analogy:
An engine is just an air machine. More air in + more air out = more power.
CAI and exhaust and headers free up the air restriction, allowing for more air in and out.
Forced induction does the same thing by forcefully blowing more air into the engine. This frees up the restriction even more, but it does the same thing as a CAI.

Cams push the valve down lower, or keep the valves open longer, allowing more air in and out of the cylinders. Again, more air moved = more power. Cams just vary the amount of air by changing the timing and how far the valves open.

Cold Air intakes/intercoolers cool the air to make it more dense. Colder/denser air has more air molecules per square inch than hotter air, so again you're getting more air in the cylinder to be compressed and make a larger or more powerful explosion.

Methanol cools air in a similar fashion. Ever go water skiing, or get out of a pool and feel the wind? it's a LOT colder than if you weren't wet. if you spray a miniscule amount of water/methanol into the air as it's going into intake, you have even colder air to be compressed.

Pretty much anything you do to your car aside from change the flammability of the air via nitrous oxide (similar to meth), is just making the engine work easier. The only limiting factor is the engine components structural integrity (Iron vs. aluminum vs. steel etc.) not the amount of air restriction.

Does that make sense?

BTW, I just stated my knowledge of meth/cams. Those could be wrong but that's what I have come to learn how they work.
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