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Old 06-26-2013, 02:16 PM   #1
FaytalsCamaro
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Take me to School (Informative)

This is actually a play off of MC_Acoustic's thread. I want to clear some things up and also make sure My own understanding is correct. So If im wrong in any part of this please correct me.

In the thread the original question was a bit misinterpreted but posed a great question. Without actual internal modification or Force Induction can you produce more RWHP than GM has advertised for that particular engine. To put it simply...using the LS3 as an example the SAE rating for it is 426. Would it be possible for RWHP to surpass that. My understanding was No.

Keep in mind I know that when you increase RWHP it also increases Crank Horsepower. So obviously at 400 RWHP crank horsepower is no longer at 426 to the crank. With that being said when adding simple bolt - ons like Headers, CAI, Exhaust systems etc..The engine output never changes. Key word being Engine Output. All we are doing is making parts less restrictive and better flowing. The engine never actually works any harder. Just more efficiently. The engine is working just as much as it was when it was creating 426 Crank HP.

Then we have mods that help directly with the parasitic loss from the drivetrain. Like for example the Underdrive pulley. This mod doesn't add hp, but frees it up.

Any more input would be greatly appreciated...sorry was getting a bit annoyed with people misinterpreting the other thread after the OP had cleared things up.

And If i'm completely wrong with my interpretation and understanding please let me know. I'm wearing my flame suit for added protection


Mod edit: TL: DR: Can you take an LS3 with boltons (no nitrous, no cam, no forced induction) and get to 426 rwhp?
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Old 06-26-2013, 02:32 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FaytalsCamaro View Post
To put it simply...using the LS3 as an example the SAE rating for it is 426. Would it be possible for RWHP to surpass that. My understanding was No.
RWHP isn't 426 stock for an LS3.
Using simple math 426*.15=63.9
426-63.9=362.

So there is roughly 362 RWHP for a stock LS3.
Bolt-ons will increase RWHP because of better air flow as you have mentioned which help to mitigate the power loss through the drivetrain.

I am not sure what your question is because you seem to know how crank HP and RWHP relate.
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Old 06-26-2013, 02:42 PM   #3
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I never said 426 was the RWHP for a stock LS3. I said the SAE rating was. My question or i should say statement is without internal engine modifications or Force Induction your RWHP as an example the LS3 will not be able to surpass 426 by alot. Have to factor in different readings from Dynos.
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Old 06-26-2013, 03:05 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FaytalsCamaro View Post
I never said 426 was the RWHP for a stock LS3. I said the SAE rating was. My question or i should say statement is without internal engine modifications or Force Induction your RWHP as an example the LS3 will not be able to surpass 426 by alot. Have to factor in different readings from Dynos.
Sure you can surpass 426 RWHP by quite a bit with just Headers, CAI and Cam.
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Old 06-26-2013, 03:08 PM   #5
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So, you're basically asking if you can make up the parasitic drivetrain HP loss with only external bolt-ons, correct? As "Dynamite" pointed out, that would be very roughly about 64 HP on an LS3. I've heard claims of some brands of headers/tune boasting 50HP gains, but I think maybe 40HP is probably more realistic. In my opinion, I think you would be hard-pressed to gain 64HP with strictly bolt-ons, without using internal mods of some kind, or at least an UD pulley. And you're absolutely correct, the variation from different dynos would affect this greatly.
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Old 06-26-2013, 03:08 PM   #6
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Sure you can surpass 426 RWHP by quite a bit with just Headers, CAI and Cam.
Cam is an internal mod....the OP was asking strictly about external bolt-ons. Not sure if that includes an UD pulley or not???
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Old 06-26-2013, 03:12 PM   #7
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He meant can the RWHP ever surpass the crank HP of the engine... The answer is NO...

The drivetrain loss remains somewhat constant. When you add mods to the engine, the loss does not decrease. What you are doing is increasing the power output of the engine, which in turn increases the RWHP.
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Old 06-26-2013, 03:17 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlingShot View Post
He meant can the RWHP ever surpass the crank HP of the engine... The answer is NO...

The drivetrain loss remains somewhat constant. When you add mods to the engine, the loss does not decrease. What you are doing is increasing the power output of the engine, which in turn increases the RWHP.
What I actually was trying to say was it is not possible for the RWHP to surpass the Factory SAE ratings without internal engine modifications or Force Induction.

Example like before the LS3. It is rated at 426 HP the sae rating aka Crank HP for it. The RWHP will not surpass 426 without internal modification or force induction by much. I say that last bit "by much" because of the various dyno readings
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Old 06-26-2013, 03:18 PM   #9
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Dont think I have seen a post from you Jose lol
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Old 06-26-2013, 03:21 PM   #10
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I am so lost. your RWHP will never surpass your crank horsepower...ever.
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Old 06-26-2013, 03:30 PM   #11
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I am so lost. your RWHP will never surpass your crank horsepower...ever.
Rofl

Hmm...let me try a different way

The LS3 Camaro produces 426 HP STOCK. This is at the Crank aka the SAE rating for our vehicle.

The average RWHP it is anywhere from 360 - 375 on average.

What I'm trying to say is without Internal Modifcations to the engine or Force Induction like Cams, turbos, Supercharging etc...Your RWHP will not go much past 426 RWHP.

The reason is 426 is the rating before alot of the parasitic loss of the drivetrain which is usually about 15-18%. Add that loss in and thats how we get RWHP. So It doesnt make sense how by adding on bolt ons would allow you to surpass 426 RWHP by much because with out Force Induction or Internal Engine Modification you have not increased how hard that engine is working. You more or less have made the supporting parts less restricted
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Old 06-26-2013, 03:49 PM   #12
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so lets see if I understand this

SAE crank 426
to the wheels 370

Can you get 426 to the wheels without internal mods?

I think it is possible.

When you do bolt on's you are not relieving the drag from the drivetrain you are simply increasing air in and air out which makes more power.

with a 15% loss from the drivetrain you would need to produce 64hp....

OR

42/43 hp AND reduce the drag from the powertrain by 5%.

(example, wheels, driveshaft, etc)

If you look at the 1LE's they are putting down about 90% of the flywheel power to the ground. (about 380-385)
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Old 06-26-2013, 04:31 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FaytalsCamaro View Post
With that being said when adding simple bolt - ons like Headers, CAI, Exhaust systems etc..The engine output never changes. Key word being Engine Output. All we are doing is making parts less restrictive and better flowing.
...I'm still not seeing the point of this discussion, but the above statement is not true. Since the LS3 (with its headers and intake) is rated as a system, changing parts of the system will also change its output.
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Old 06-26-2013, 04:34 PM   #14
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Your old pal from the other thread here. Look up a horsepower tv episode where they buy a crate ls3 and hook it up to an engine dyno. 490hp were their results.
Mind=blown yet? they didn't have any water pump or power steering pump or alternator or ac compressor or idler pulley or anything else. So it's possible to make more power than the factory rating
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