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Old 03-03-2008, 01:13 AM   #1
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Finally Some Positive CAFE opinions

So we've all heard a lot of doom and gloom stuff about what CAFE is going to do to our beloved muscle and pony cars, especially from the automotive media. Obviously, bad news grabs attention. So it was a little surprising that coming from Motor Trend, of all places, was this article in the most recent issue concerning the effects of CAFE on mainstream performance cars. Here's a notable excerpt:

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To find out what sorts of "replacements for displacement" might power the next generation muscle cars, we contacted the go-fast gurus at the Detroit Three, BMW, and Mercedes-Benz AMG. All were adamant on one point: performance cannot be sacrificed as it was in the 1970s and 1980s. Corvette chief engineer Tom Wallace echoes everyone else's sentiments: "What matters is pounds per horsepower. Horsepower is technology and displacement. If you can take mass out, you can take horsepower out. If you can take horsepower out, you can take displacement out and improve fuel economy." Lowering mass improves every sporting aspect of a car, so this is exciting news for Mustangs, Camaros, and Chargers, which can afford to shrink a bit. Further reducing mass from cars like the Corvette, however, will require exotic, expensive materials. And, unfortunately, many other efficiency technologies like gasoline direct injection, cylinder-shutoff, variable intake and valvetrain systems, and active aerodynamic aids add weight...Bottom line: expect muscle cars to evolve, offering equal or better performance in a lighter, smaller, more aerodynamic form bristling with new technologies.
Article: Muscle CAFE by Frank Markus, Motor Trend April 2008

Isn't it so refreshing to hear that the performance guys at the auto makers aren't going to just surrender performance cars so we repeat the 70s and 80s again? In so many other articles we hear "cancel this" or "delay that". I'm always worried that by the time I can afford a Camaro, the only thing I can buy is a 75 hp subcompact because everything else we've heard indicates they're just going to throw in the towel and take the easy way out. It is so nice to hear that through innovation, we may actually have great performance cars that are also very efficient. I definitely needed this little attitude pick-me-up.
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Old 03-03-2008, 01:36 AM   #2
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Well thats good. It would be a real shame to have a Camaro making less than 200 hp out of a V8, again. I think that GM's performance cars are in the best position out of anyones. I'm still a fan of using the apparent E85 loophole, or tacking on a $500 CAFE penalty to the car when I buy it. That would take care of the fines that the automares would have to pay for such cars, then everybody gets what they want.
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Old 03-03-2008, 01:49 AM   #3
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I agree...with the strides in carbon nano tech. It won't be long before the cars weight little more that the engines.

So we’ll be able to save all the weight we need to save the almighty HP.
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Old 03-03-2008, 10:13 AM   #4
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Weight is the Holy Grail to all things good in the car world, finding how to do it inexpensively is the key that opens the Holy Grail.

My RX8 comes in, just under 3K and that helps in everything...handling, responsiveness, ride, balance and fuel economy.

Note: It still has a little piggy rotary engine so it's fuel economy aint great. I've averaged 19mpg over the life of my RX8 in all city driving.
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Old 03-03-2008, 11:03 AM   #5
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I would not mind having to pay a $1000 CAFE penalty if I had to in order to get 400-500 horsepower in my Camaro. The way I see it is that GM is trying to give the enthusiast what he/she wants, and if it takes a small penalty to do that I'm willing to pay that. What's another $1000 for a $30K+ car?
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Old 03-03-2008, 12:16 PM   #6
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Another option is to make all heavy comfort items options instead of standard, then charge much more for them. Most cars on the market could lose 10% of their weight without much trouble. That would make for a few mpg increase in all cars.
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Old 03-03-2008, 12:52 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radz282003 View Post
I would not mind having to pay a $1000 CAFE penalty if I had to in order to get 400-500 horsepower in my Camaro. The way I see it is that GM is trying to give the enthusiast what he/she wants, and if it takes a small penalty to do that I'm willing to pay that. What's another $1000 for a $30K+ car?
I don't know that I like this idea.... I'd probably do it... But for this I'd better be able to get 500hp... I don't think i'd do it for 400...

hmmmmm.
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Old 03-03-2008, 01:04 PM   #8
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This is exactly what I wanted to hear. The last time I saw anything about CAFE, it was GM complaining about having to axe upcoming developments. I'm glad they're going to step up to the challenge.
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Old 03-03-2008, 01:45 PM   #9
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I don't know that I like this idea.... I'd probably do it... But for this I'd better be able to get 500hp... I don't think i'd do it for 400...

hmmmmm.
OH NO, I feel you on everything you've said. I'll pay more for 500 horse, but not for 400. My car has about that much now.
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Old 03-03-2008, 02:08 PM   #10
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i think ohv 5.0 l V8 with DI, vvt supercharger/turbocharger and about 500 Hp would be nice engine for camaro.
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Old 03-03-2008, 04:17 PM   #11
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i think ohv 5.0 l V8 with DI, vvt supercharger/turbocharger and about 500 Hp would be nice engine for camaro.
Agreed!!!

I want every fuel saving technology available... Now, I'd also like to be able to turn them off when I need to
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Old 03-03-2008, 05:16 PM   #12
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Agreed, I would pay more for something over 500hp, but 400hp doesn't impress me enough to pay for it.
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Old 03-03-2008, 05:23 PM   #13
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Why can't manufactures tune cars for MAXIMUM fuel efficiency, really crappy performance, and then just sell a tuner that brings it up to a performance number that they truly intended. Like, go from 250hp, up to 400 lol
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Old 03-03-2008, 05:26 PM   #14
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well - the article is correct to a point.

Here's at least two things missing:

One -- the "rules" -- the law has been passed --but the rules have not yet been written -- and, knowing our elected officials - that may take QUITE some time!

Two -- COST -- what is the cost to you, the consumer to get there?
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Old 03-03-2008, 05:35 PM   #15
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im sure somewhere its already been said, so sry for asking but what is the CAFE exactly?
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Old 03-03-2008, 05:37 PM   #16
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Corporate Average Fuel Economy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpora...e_Fuel_Economy
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Old 03-03-2008, 05:40 PM   #17
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Maybe if rules were written the car manufacturers would now what they dealing with and in what to put they resources in..or?
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Old 03-03-2008, 05:41 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle2k View Post
Why can't manufactures tune cars for MAXIMUM fuel efficiency, really crappy performance, and then just sell a tuner that brings it up to a performance number that they truly intended. Like, go from 250hp, up to 400 lol
because fuel economy isnt tied directly to hp. The Camaro is expected to get mileage at roughly equal to that of the new Evo and WRX STi, but it will weight a couple hundred pounds more, have a larger engine, and make more power. The most efficient V8 in GM trucks is the 5.3L, not the 4.8L. But it makes more power too. The V6's in the Grand Am's and Aleros circa 2000 got better mileage than the I4's did. Those are examples off the top of my head. So, turning down hp does not always turn into better fuel economy. Granted, those comparisons were all for different engines, but the concept still holds true
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Old 03-03-2008, 05:44 PM   #19
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It would seem efficiency is obviously the key. It seems like DI is the way to go, after all, diesels have kinda' been using that haven't they?
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Old 03-03-2008, 05:45 PM   #20
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... Well, diesel is obviously a different fuel, but I think the way the fuel is injected is what is relavent.
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Old 03-03-2008, 06:31 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fbodfather View Post
well - the article is correct to a point.

Here's at least two things missing:

One -- the "rules" -- the law has been passed --but the rules have not yet been written -- and, knowing our elected officials - that may take QUITE some time!

Two -- COST -- what is the cost to you, the consumer to get there?
fbodfather, You say the laws have been passed but no rules have been writen. In fairness to the automakers, until the rules have been written and adopted into the law, will the cars (MFG up to that point) be grandfathered into the new laws and rules?...

Meaning if they build it now, they (MFG's) can do what they want without worrying about the MPG #'s until the next model change?
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Old 03-03-2008, 06:31 PM   #22
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I Say that everyone with a V-8 should go to Capital hill and rev their engines to let the law-makers hear the "Roar of America" to protest Cafe.
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Old 03-03-2008, 06:38 PM   #23
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+1

I like the way you think.
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Old 03-03-2008, 09:10 PM   #24
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I Say that everyone with a V-8 should go to Capital hill and rev their engines to let the law-makers hear the "Roar of America" to protest Cafe.
That'd be WAY too dangerous. A couple Camaro's and a Corvette...and that'd shatter the Washington Monument!

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Old 03-03-2008, 10:03 PM   #25
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is there even a point to buying a car magizine... i just opened my motortrend in the mail and this was the first opinion read
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