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Old 07-12-2013, 08:08 AM   #26
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hehehehe....I get a kick out of reading your posts...
Some of the posts here just kill me...and I can't resist some of my own spewing.

But, that is all from me for now because "there will always be someone wrong on the internet!" Lol!
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Old 07-12-2013, 08:37 AM   #27
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because a street car is not, nor will ever be, a race car,
Huh? I ran a street car in SCCA T1 for many years. Kept plates on it too.
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Old 07-12-2013, 09:14 AM   #28
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What "both sides" is there? Do you not comprehend the Z/28 is not a race car? That there is nothing "illegal" to be discussed (it's a red herring)? How is this question even coming up? Have you ever actually stood next to an actual race car?

Do you have a crystal clear understanding of what DE/HPDE/Track Days are? And how they differ from actual racing? Time Trials? Do you understand how they differ from wheel-to-wheel racing?

Good gosh people, do some homework and understand what you are talking about...
Yes,I have been next to actual race cars, I used to race competitively a few years ago( All though I would never consider my car a race car haha). Our company used to sponsor an IHRA Drag car. I worked for a local drag racing series and was up close with many race cars, I had to deal with people having equipment on their cars that was not "legal" for the class they were racing in. I worked the behind the scenes of drag racing series, with cars ranging from 13.50 all the way down to 7.80 but maybe you don't consider a drag car a race car bc you seem to perfer the twisties, so you tell me have been I around a race car?

I will admit I did not word my post well at all. Still early need more coffee!

When I said both sides, what I should have said was this

I understand that this car is not a race car, and that people are going to be able to track it and do very well with it. It is a very track capable street car

The "other side" would be I can understand how some people may be upset/disappointed that with how track focused this car is, and how it follows the heritage of the 67-69 Z/28s that it as it sits wasnt really built to race in a specific series, but GM also stated that when the released the car. Maybe Im still not wording that right, lol. but I think it made sense as to what I should have said haha.
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Old 07-12-2013, 09:17 AM   #29
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I am by no means an educated authority on SCCA racing or race cars in general, but here's one small tidbit to keep in mind......

I was talking to the "FbodFather" in Sturgis a few weeks ago, and I told him to tell the boys back at GM they did a great job with the new Z/28, and that I was thoroughly impressed. His reply was, "We're not done with it yet"!!!!

So....don't get all bent out of shape over SCCA race classes just yet. Just because we've all seen the prototype doesn't mean that is exactly what will be produced next Spring.
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Old 07-12-2013, 10:18 AM   #30
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He has many valid points. Chevy is marketing this car as a track ready purpose built car, yet it is unable to compete in any meaningful sanctioned events. The other interesting info I got out of this post is that it seems that the 1LE is not even competitive with the standard 5.0 GT never mind the Boss in the sanctioned SCCA events. There are 7-mustangs ranked above the 1LE some base GTs. Do the 1LE drivers competing not know how to drive? Regardless GM should have made certain that the Z/28 would be able to compete in these events and not just lightning lap articles.
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Old 07-12-2013, 10:32 AM   #31
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STRAIGHT FROM THE PRESS RELEASE FROM 3/27

Quote:
Originally Posted by GM official
While the new Camaro Z/28 is not intended to compete in a specific race series, it is solely focused on track capability. In initial testing, the Camaro Z/28 is three seconds faster per lap than the Camaro ZL1.

...


The new 2014 Camaro line will arrive at Chevrolet dealers later in 2013. The Camaro Z/28 is expected to be appearing at track events across the United States in spring 2014.
The car is not meant for any organized racing, and GM acknowledges that. It is a HPDE enthusiast car. "track ready" not "SCCA ready"
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Old 07-12-2013, 10:34 AM   #32
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Suits me perfect!!!

And i think Justin just flushed thepill down the proverbial crapper forever.
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Old 07-12-2013, 10:45 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Justin Moreno View Post
STRAIGHT FROM THE PRESS RELEASE FROM 3/27



The car is not meant for any organized racing, and GM acknowledges that. It is a HPDE enthusiast car. "track ready" not "SCCA ready"
I think a lot of people, myself included forgot about that statement.
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Old 07-12-2013, 10:53 AM   #34
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Old 07-12-2013, 10:58 AM   #35
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I will admit I did not word my post well at all. Still early need more coffee!

When I said both sides, what I should have said was this

I understand that this car is not a race car, and that people are going to be able to track it and do very well with it. It is a very track capable street car

The "other side" would be I can understand how some people may be upset/disappointed that with how track focused this car is, and how it follows the heritage of the 67-69 Z/28s that it as it sits wasnt really built to race in a specific series, but GM also stated that when the released the car. Maybe Im still not wording that right, lol. but I think it made sense as to what I should have said haha.
Let me clarify I am not personally attacking you, simply making my points with gusto and emotion

Drag and Tracking have nothing in common other than a car is used for both sports. As has been posted here ad infinitum, ad nauseum, trackers "get it" and non-trackers are trying to make arguments that make no sense

The Z/28 is a fantastic package for its intended purpose. If people will stop interpreting it as something it is not nor was ever meant to be, we can generate more pixels about its tasty goodness and lose the moronic worry over it's "legality" <face palm>

Quote:
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STRAIGHT FROM THE PRESS RELEASE FROM 3/27

The car is not meant for any organized racing, and GM acknowledges that. It is a HPDE enthusiast car. "track ready" not "SCCA ready"
Thank you Sir. That is the kind of homework I can respect and relate to.

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Suits me perfect!!!

And i think Justin just flushed thepill down the proverbial crapper forever.
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:24 AM   #36
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Actually this thread (didn't bother reading the Pill's comments) has been pretty informative for me...The true sanctioned, legal, SCAA, whatever, etc. type of hard core racing is total pie-in-the sky for me....

"Track Events" sound more appealing and do-able anyways...lol....And if the Z/28 is made for that purpose and not out of place for the type of build that it is going to be, then all the better....just sayin'.....
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:34 AM   #37
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Actually this thread (didn't bother reading the Pill's comments) has been pretty informative for me...The true sanctioned, legal, SCAA, whatever, etc. type of hard core racing is total pie-in-the sky for me....
"Track Events" sound more appealing and do-able anyways...lol....And if the Z/28 is made for that purpose and not out of place for the type of build that it is going to be, then all the better....just sayin'.....
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:39 AM   #38
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Huh? I ran a street car in SCCA T1 for many years. Kept plates on it too.
Understood. I was thinking GrandAm/ALMS because that is what the 302S/R are designed to fit within the rules of essentially out of the box. That kind of car never was street legal nor can it ever be made so. A "pure and intended" race car if you will.

OP's argument was based on a race car fitting certain rules.
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:53 AM   #39
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He has many valid points. Chevy is marketing this car as a track ready purpose built car, yet it is unable to compete in any meaningful sanctioned events. The other interesting info I got out of this post is that it seems that the 1LE is not even competitive with the standard 5.0 GT never mind the Boss in the sanctioned SCCA events. There are 7-mustangs ranked above the 1LE some base GTs. Do the 1LE drivers competing not know how to drive? Regardless GM should have made certain that the Z/28 would be able to compete in these events and not just lightning lap articles.
those are not "base GT's"

here is the list thepill posted...



here is the camaro from that list



and a couple SCCA mustangs





which reminds me... this guy has been saying all boss 302's come from the factory built around the rulebook. dont the street 302's come with 19" wheels? which violate the 18" max wheel diameter rule that he posted?

thePill's posts are strangely funny i'll admit... I LOL'd at his chops with the joker in them.

Last edited by Justin Moreno; 07-12-2013 at 12:04 PM.
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Old 07-12-2013, 11:58 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Zfatuated View Post
Let me clarify I am not personally attacking you, simply making my points with gusto and emotion

Drag and Tracking have nothing in common other than a car is used for both sports. As has been posted here ad infinitum, ad nauseum, trackers "get it" and non-trackers are trying to make arguments that make no sense

The Z/28 is a fantastic package for its intended purpose. If people will stop interpreting it as something it is not nor was ever meant to be, we can generate more pixels about its tasty goodness and lose the moronic worry over it's "legality" <face palm>



Thank you Sir. That is the kind of homework I can respect and relate to.



Got ya
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Old 07-12-2013, 12:42 PM   #41
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which reminds me... this guy has been saying all boss 302's come from the factory built around the rulebook. dont the street 302's come with 19" wheels? which violate the 18" max wheel diameter rule that he posted?
T1 permits 19x13 and 19x11 inch wheels which is the class the Boss runs in. The Z/28 brakes prohibit the car from competing in T1.
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Old 07-12-2013, 12:44 PM   #42
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T1 permits 19x13 and 19x11 inch wheels which is the class the Boss runs in. The Z/28 brakes prohibit the car from competing in T1.
ah. thanks.
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Old 07-12-2013, 01:15 PM   #43
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Well now... after reading through all this and some of his posts on the Mustang forum it's clear that for some reason he has a chip on his shoulder against me personally. Not sure why; what was his name here on the forum?

He conveniently ignores parts of my posts about the Z/28 that do not fit his "agenda" and rants on about things taken out of context.

In my comments about the Z/28 I've talked about it being a street-legal track car which, as Zfatuated pointed out is quite different from a real race car. Race cars are not street legal for many reasons. Even if a team begins with a production car they strip it down completely and rebuild it from the ground up with everything from safety-wired fasteners to full roll-cages, fire safety systems, telemetry and other gauges, etc. none of which you'll find on a street legal production car because they're completely unnecessary.

His "points" about rules for racing which he seems to think I'm unaware of are not taking into account the other things I mentioned about the Z/28. I've said many times in my comments that there may be a new manufacturer's championship series in the works ala the original Trans Am (the Camaros and Mustangs did not compete in the Can Am series as he mentioned in one of his posts). While looking at what Chevy is doing with the Z/28 much of it seemed at odds with what appears to be its target market; HPDE and weekend racers. I noted this and also made note of Dodge announcing they're making a car to compete with the Z/28 and now Ford has reluctantly admitted they're in this game. Yet they're all holding their cards VERY close to their chest....this all seems odd to me. It looks like the big 3 are playing a huge game of poker and each of them are sitting at the table with millions of R&D dollars ready to be invested...so the stakes are high, but what game are they playing? Is all this really for HPDE and weekend racers?

The Z/28 as stated by GM is NOT "meant" for any current organized racing... Dodge and Ford are in this game now.... Do the massive development investments necessary to create cars with stripped out insulation, making custom shocks, thinner rear window glass, deleting A/C and radios, creating custom wiring harnesses, putting in cooling and track abilities that allow you to run out an entire tank of gas non-stop really sound like it's being aimed at HPDE and weekend racers? It's overkill; big-time. They could have just added an LS7 to a 1LE and made a few other improvements; brought it in for much less than a Z/28 is going to be and it would have sold well; performed beyond 98% of it's customer's abilities. There's no logical reason to do what they're doing (as well as Dodge and Ford spending this kind of development money) if it's just for HPDE and weekend racers. They already have cars that fit that bill quite nicely.

These cars don't fit anything that's current; so what kind of game are the big 3 playing here? My thought is they may be planning a new manufacturer's championship series where the rules will be what the Big 3 (and SCCA) agree they're going to be. I don't have any inside info, I'm making a purely educated guess here but to me it looks like something is in the works that they aren't talking about.... yet. They're being just as secretive about it as they are about the actual performance of these new cars they're developing. Chevy isn't done with the Z/28 yet; why not? Is all this race-level secrecy and development REALLY necessary just for HPDE and weekend racers? IMHO no. The Z/28 has been at least 2 years in development, you can be sure that Dodge and Ford didn't just suddenly decide to start their own development while watching the Z/28 announcement. They're all working on something; they're being very VERY guarded about performance and such. That kind of secrecy isn't needed for HPDE and weekend racers; it IS generally seen when involved with real racing.

I don't know what Mr. Pill's issue is but he seems to have his ego and self-esteem seriously wrapped up with whatever he's driving and who makes it. I understand the rivalry between Chevy and Ford but he seems to be taking it way too far as though the only reason why anyone beats a Ford product is if they were "lucky". Saying that Chevy won the Trans Am with the Z/28 because they got "lucky" when they found Mark Donohue as a driver was just ridiculous.

So let me make my position clear: The Z/28 as we know it so far is a track car that's street legal; it's NOT a real race car that's street legal. I believe it's going to rule in HPDE and I look forward to seeing what Dodge and Ford bring to the table. If they BOTH bring cars with carbon ceramic brakes that aren't legal in any current SCCA series that I know of, then to me that indicates something else that's new might be in the works, which has been my position for some time now. I'm hoping for a new Trans Am or something similar that will be based on these new production track cars and be a new manufacturer's championship series.

Al O and Mark Stielow are not clueless idiots; they know the rules, far more so I'm sure than Mr. Pill does. They have to build cars that meet the massive amounts of laws and regulations for the street; they know what they're doing. It makes no sense for the Big 3 to be dedicating the amount of money it's going to take to bring these cars to market if its just for low-to-no public visibility HPDE and weekend racer track events. That market is so small compared to what they'd need to recover that investment that it just doesn't make any economic sense to be doing this... UNLESS they have something else going on we don't know about... yet. The cost of consumables for tires and brakes alone on these cars is out-of-range for the average Camaro/Mustang/Dodge customer, so who are these cars really being developed for? I do not believe these cars are being developed to "rip people off". I think the next 18 months are going to be VERY interesting.

This is just my opinion and I don't have any privileged access to anything.
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Old 07-12-2013, 02:12 PM   #44
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Racing? That is why GM offers the "body in white" Camaro. I watch them every chance I get in the Continental Tire Series. And they are doing quite well!
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Old 07-12-2013, 02:15 PM   #45
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Racing? That is why GM offers the "body in white" Camaro. I watch them every chance I get in the Continental Tire Series. And they are doing quite well!
watching a recording right now while working on some double integrals... LOL
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Old 07-12-2013, 02:37 PM   #46
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I've said many times in my comments that there may be a new manufacturer's championship series in the works ala the original Trans Am.
THIS! would be awesome. I was hoping for the same thing, but didn't make the Z/28 connection. I also hope the Z/28 is as good as your car, Doc.
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Old 07-12-2013, 02:55 PM   #47
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So the z/28 will be too good to race SCCA ?
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Old 07-13-2013, 11:36 AM   #48
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watching a recording right now while working on some double integrals... LOL
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Old 07-13-2013, 11:37 AM   #49
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So the z/28 will be too good to race SCCA ?
Let's just say SCCA needs to catch up with technology. Maybe create another class.
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Old 07-13-2013, 12:13 PM   #50
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Let's just say SCCA needs to catch up with technology. Maybe create another class.
^^this. There's a lot of big money interest involved that I'm sure would like to see the next generation of technology showcased and used on the tracks by classes other than top pros. It's time... I hope.
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