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Old 08-07-2013, 07:09 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLL67RSSS View Post
JFTR the GM people, C5 moderators, and disciples each had an award to give to their chosen car.

Adams' chose the "Best of Show" and "Best Paint/Exterior."

The CICC determined the following awards using a version of a 100 point system. (I didn't judge [too hard!], did my time at the registration booth.)

Best 1st gen
Best 2nd Gen
Best 3rd Gen
Best4th Gen
Best 5th Gen
Best interior
Best engine bay
Thanks for pointing that out, FYI, Adams chose the same vehicle that won best fifth Gen this year, last year for BEST PAINT, guess they knew what they were doing as well.

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Old 08-07-2013, 08:04 AM   #27
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That 1000 point deal takes way to long. Lets keep it the same way.
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Old 08-07-2013, 09:08 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by MLL67RSSS View Post
The CICC determined the following awards using a version of a 100 point system. (I didn't judge [too hard!], did my time at the registration booth.)

Best 1st gen
Best 2nd Gen
Best 3rd Gen
Best4th Gen
Best 5th Gen
Best interior
Best engine bay
Do you know what the criteria was within the judging system?
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Old 08-07-2013, 09:33 AM   #29
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Do you know what the criteria was within the judging system?
Maybe someone who judged could better answer that, didn't see the judging sheet they used.

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Old 08-07-2013, 10:49 AM   #30
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Actually, car shows are quite simple.
The most correct, flawless, cleanest car wins. Modified cars do not win (outside of modified classes).
If you were the only judge, which car would have won? Specific car, not 'in general'

Even Concours shows are not simple, actually they're the most time consuming and difficult. If you had a Concours show for the 5th gen Camaro, you would only have one. No one wants to go to a car show that's won by the person that just drove their car off the showroom floor to the car show, or in this example, trailered it.
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Old 08-07-2013, 12:02 PM   #31
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If you were the only judge, which car would have won? Specific car, not 'in general'

Even Concours shows are not simple, actually they're the most time consuming and difficult. If you had a Concours show for the 5th gen Camaro, you would only have one. No one wants to go to a car show that's won by the person that just drove their car off the showroom floor to the car show, or in this example, trailered it.
I can't answer that as I wasn't there.

And I know concours shows are difficult. That's why winning one is such a big deal. And far above a subjective, popular vote.

Most of the concours shows I participate in have classes for newer cars. That way, a brand new car fresh off the showroom floor doesn't beat a 45 year old car.
You're right, if you mixed them all together, not many people would want to compete against a newer (or new) car.
That's why there are classes.

You could do a concours show for 5th gens. It would just be difficult as I imagine most of them are pretty nice. But if you're the cleanest, most flawless, and most correct (and in this case, they'd have to look at things like oil filters, paint pen marks, grease pen markings, and the tags on the individual components), then you'll win.

I love concours showing. It's the most objective, fairest way of judging vehicles.
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Old 08-07-2013, 12:07 PM   #32
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This thread is about the GM and Mod awards. There is no judging associated. Just the car we liked and thought deserved recognition. Each one of us had our own tastes and just made a personal choice.

I picked the 45th Anniversary car w/ the COPO hood and COPO style stripes that matched the 45th theme. It was totally setup for drag racing and not car shows but damn it really did it for me w/ the 15" weld wheels.
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Old 08-07-2013, 12:21 PM   #33
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I can't answer that as I wasn't there.

And I know concours shows are difficult. That's why winning one is such a big deal. And far above a subjective, popular vote.

Most of the concours shows I participate in have classes for newer cars. That way, a brand new car fresh off the showroom floor doesn't beat a 45 year old car.
You're right, if you mixed them all together, not many people would want to compete against a newer (or new) car.
That's why there are classes.

You could do a concours show for 5th gens. It would just be difficult as I imagine most of them are pretty nice. But if you're the cleanest, most flawless, and most correct (and in this case, they'd have to look at things like oil filters, paint pen marks, grease pen markings, and the tags on the individual components), then you'll win.

I love concours showing. It's the most objective, fairest way of judging vehicles.
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ Modding/showing these Gen5's is all about individuality, passion, and emotion, not adhering to some sterile, mind-numbing, numerical equation.
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Old 08-07-2013, 12:25 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by daveagogo1 View Post
Clearly the show portion wasn't advertised as a 1000pt system show where much of the above would apply. This was put on and judged by the local Camaro club, Adams and some GM reps. Hardly experienced 1000pt judges.

Even then you have plenty of lobbying for x car over another due to a genuine armrest vs a repro. Happens all the time. I wasn't even at this event but know enough to realize this type of show anyone can win. Straight stock or not and modified gets pretty dicey with this type of show. I'm sure everyone did their best and it's all in fun anyways.
This is the reason why we left it up to a local club that has organized these "unofficial" shows before...

Not only are we amature event organizers... we know NOTHING about how to run a car show... this is a mojor concern of ours for C5F5.... Hoping we can find an orgainization to help us get it right and enjoyable...
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Old 08-07-2013, 01:56 PM   #35
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car show...I know people here. Really.
You may look at IASCA...I know they are an autosound group but they also run Tuner Jam...Look up Spring Break Nationals...Daytona Beach.
http://www.springbreaknationals.com/
I know Moe Sabourin pretty darn well as I run a good size IASCA show in conjunction with Motorsports Authority's 90-100 car carshow in Conway AR. If you talk to Moe...tell him you know John Sketoe (pronouned Skee-toe) from the Camaro5 forum. You may just see what they need. If you need a local shop backing it that is an IASCA shop, I have a good friend that owns Mobile Toys in College Station...if you choose to offer a soundoff in conjunction with the car show, I could help you guys with that. I could help you get a judging crew together even.
I've done car shows since '97. Search my name + USACi + IASCA + car audio. I really think this is probably better via email to a group, if so...my email is in my profile...as a mod you can get it.
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Old 08-07-2013, 02:17 PM   #36
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car show...I know people here. Really.
You may look at IASCA...I know they are an autosound group but they also run Tuner Jam...Look up Spring Break Nationals...Daytona Beach.
http://www.springbreaknationals.com/
I know Moe Sabourin pretty darn well as I run a good size IASCA show in conjunction with Motorsports Authority's 90-100 car carshow in Conway AR. If you talk to Moe...tell him you know John Sketoe (pronouned Skee-toe) from the Camaro5 forum. You may just see what they need. If you need a local shop backing it that is an IASCA shop, I have a good friend that owns Mobile Toys in College Station...if you choose to offer a soundoff in conjunction with the car show, I could help you guys with that. I could help you get a judging crew together even.
I've done car shows since '97. Search my name + USACi + IASCA + car audio. I really think this is probably better via email to a group, if so...my email is in my profile...as a mod you can get it.
Good to know. Thanks.
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Old 08-07-2013, 02:18 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by mlee View Post
This thread is about the GM and Mod awards. There is no judging associated. Just the car we liked and thought deserved recognition. Each one of us had our own tastes and just made a personal choice.

I picked the 45th Anniversary car w/ the COPO hood and COPO style stripes that matched the 45th theme. It was totally setup for drag racing and not car shows but damn it really did it for me w/ the 15" weld wheels.
This!


Like I said earlier. Last year I went for autographs, not even signed up for the show, just sitting there in the lot and was awarded a Team Camaro Award. She said she loved my car and wanted me to have her award.

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Old 08-07-2013, 03:12 PM   #38
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Hey all! Hopefully I can give you some insight into the judging. I am VP of our Indy NexGen Club as well as a member of CICC. CICC was tasked with running & judging the car show. The exceptions to this were the Mod/GM Awards and 2 Awards which Adams selected.

We had 5 teams of judges (2 per team). It was a 100pt system broken down into 4 - 25pt subcategories (interior, exterior, engine, overall appearance). Interior, Exterior, & Engine were further broken down into 5 - 5pt areas.

I felt as a judge I was pretty firm, with so many awesome cars you have to be. We picked different areas to start out so we all judged different cars. Of course there will be variance between judges, but I heard most scores fell in the 60-70 total points range.

I can only speak for myself, but here is how I judged. If you had a brand new 2013 right off the showroom floor that was spotless - you did not get perfect score (more like 3/5). If your windows were up and I could see in the interior (and it appeared clean), I gave 15/25 for interior. If the windows were up and totally blacked out to where I could not see in, you got 0/25. If the hood was down you got 0/25 for the engine section. The judgement call was made not to judge trunks or penalize them for being closed since it had rained (so people would not have to empty them).

If you car made 1000rwhp, it still got penalized if it was filthy. We understand people travel long distances in the cars and take that into consideration. Believe it or not I rated most of the exteriors pretty high. I found most problems with the interior or engine. It really is subjective and I don't want to get into examples or details. But if someone did not genuinely earn the points I did not give them (just because a car is new or stock).

Please understand we all volunteered to help with the show. This took time away from us that we otherwise could be out racing more or enjoying the fest.

If you want my 100% honest opinion.. This is Camaro5 Fest - there should not be judged car show awards given for 1st-4th Gen. No offense to my fellow CICC members who own those. Very few of those show up and they sometimes win by default. It is clearly a 5th Gen heavy show, and I personally feel there should be a TOPxx as well as numerous specialty awards for 5th Gens only. Adams provides awesome trophies and spends a great deal of money on them. I think most people would be pleased to get a "lesser" quality trophy, say if you could give 20 of them away.

Congrats to all that won - I wish more could have
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Old 08-07-2013, 03:32 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by GTAHVIT View Post
This is the reason why we left it up to a local club that has organized these "unofficial" shows before...

Not only are we amature event organizers... we know NOTHING about how to run a car show... this is a mojor concern of ours for C5F5.... Hoping we can find an orgainization to help us get it right and enjoyable...
We actually do and they are very experienced.
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Old 08-07-2013, 03:44 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by mlee View Post
This thread is about the GM and Mod awards. There is no judging associated. Just the car we liked and thought deserved recognition. Each one of us had our own tastes and just made a personal choice.

I picked the 45th Anniversary car w/ the COPO hood and COPO style stripes that matched the 45th theme. It was totally setup for drag racing and not car shows but damn it really did it for me w/ the 15" weld wheels.
Where is the pic MAJOR AWARD PIC
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Old 08-07-2013, 03:45 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by mlee View Post
This thread is about the GM and Mod awards. There is no judging associated. Just the car we liked and thought deserved recognition. Each one of us had our own tastes and just made a personal choice.

I picked the 45th Anniversary car w/ the COPO hood and COPO style stripes that matched the 45th theme. It was totally setup for drag racing and not car shows but damn it really did it for me w/ the 15" weld wheels.
And - THANK U VERY VERY Much .... I was really flattered and grateful for the kudos. Brought the car to this event on very little power for simply some shakedowns and data logging. It's in pieces again getting ready for the LSX Shootouts - brought back Sunday, torn down Sunday. Was a great event and again thanks it was appreciated.
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Old 08-07-2013, 03:58 PM   #42
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Hey all! Hopefully I can give you some insight into the judging. I am VP of our Indy NexGen Club as well as a member of CICC. CICC was tasked with running & judging the car show. The exceptions to this were the Mod/GM Awards and 2 Awards which Adams selected.

We had 5 teams of judges (2 per team). It was a 100pt system broken down into 4 - 25pt subcategories (interior, exterior, engine, overall appearance). Interior, Exterior, & Engine were further broken down into 5 - 5pt areas.

I felt as a judge I was pretty firm, with so many awesome cars you have to be. We picked different areas to start out so we all judged different cars. Of course there will be variance between judges, but I heard most scores fell in the 60-70 total points range.

I can only speak for myself, but here is how I judged. If you had a brand new 2013 right off the showroom floor that was spotless - you did not get perfect score (more like 3/5). If your windows were up and I could see in the interior (and it appeared clean), I gave 15/25 for interior. If the windows were up and totally blacked out to where I could not see in, you got 0/25. If the hood was down you got 0/25 for the engine section. The judgement call was made not to judge trunks or penalize them for being closed since it had rained (so people would not have to empty them).

If you car made 1000rwhp, it still got penalized if it was filthy. We understand people travel long distances in the cars and take that into consideration. Believe it or not I rated most of the exteriors pretty high. I found most problems with the interior or engine. It really is subjective and I don't want to get into examples or details. But if someone did not genuinely earn the points I did not give them (just because a car is new or stock).

Please understand we all volunteered to help with the show. This took time away from us that we otherwise could be out racing more or enjoying the fest.

If you want my 100% honest opinion.. This is Camaro5 Fest - there should not be judged car show awards given for 1st-4th Gen. No offense to my fellow CICC members who own those. Very few of those show up and they sometimes win by default. It is clearly a 5th Gen heavy show, and I personally feel there should be a TOPxx as well as numerous specialty awards for 5th Gens only. Adams provides awesome trophies and spends a great deal of money on them. I think most people would be pleased to get a "lesser" quality trophy, say if you could give 20 of them away.

Congrats to all that won - I wish more could have
So you guys weren't judging for numbers matching correctness? Even for the earlier gen cars?
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Old 08-07-2013, 04:04 PM   #43
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Remember guys. the fest is an informal event... it's meant to be an excuse to have some fun, and not be taken too seriously... yet still give those who want to compete in different areas some hardware to take home.

We really aren't trying to be a "sanctioned" event... So please allow for some flexibility.

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Old 08-07-2013, 04:04 PM   #44
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And - THANK U VERY VERY Much .... I was really flattered and grateful for the kudos. Brought the car to this event on very little power for simply some shakedowns and data logging. It's in pieces again getting ready for the LSX Shootouts - brought back Sunday, torn down Sunday. Was a great event and again thanks it was appreciated.
I wasn't the only one who's jaw dropped around your car. Absolutely genius the way you managed to marry the 45th and the COPO into one. I really hope Adam Berry from GM saw that. He would have loved it.

And yes once complete this car will knock them dead in car shows too. Can't wait to follow the progress.

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Where is the pic MAJOR AWARD PIC
It's in the STICKY Thread.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=311543
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Old 08-07-2013, 04:18 PM   #45
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So you guys weren't judging for numbers matching correctness? Even for the earlier gen cars?
No - it wasn't that serious...
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Old 08-07-2013, 06:04 PM   #46
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I can't answer that as I wasn't there.
I just re-read this part of your earlier post. So, you're all upset about how this show was judged and what cars won and you weren't even there???
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Old 08-07-2013, 06:10 PM   #47
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this was an outdoor show, If you go to win an award, you have lost before you start. I have lots of work in my car as do others, and I have been an ISCA judge for over 10 years, dont confuse the indoor show circuit whith shows like the one at c5. congrats to all the winners, they are all deserving and my hat goes off to the staff who judged them.
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Old 08-07-2013, 06:15 PM   #48
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this was an outdoor show, If you go to win an award, you have lost before you start. I have lots of work in my car as do others, and I have been an ISCA judge for over 10 years, dont confuse the indoor show circuit whith shows like the one at c5. congrats to all the winners, they are all deserving and my hat goes off to the staff who judged them.
Welcome, Great 1st post as you are dead on.

It's a whole new game as far as indoors under the florescent lights where overnight dust is a huge issue. I think everyone had a great time showing their cars. Just wish I could have spent more time checking all of them out.
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Old 08-07-2013, 06:23 PM   #49
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So if someone had bought a Camaro off the show room floor that morning and drove it straight to the Fest, they would have won. Correct?
Clearly you haven't seen the condition a lot of cars come off the lot. Theres a BIG difference between a 'fresh off the lot' car and a detailed, show prepped, car.

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Clearly the show portion wasn't advertised as a 1000pt system show where much of the above would apply. This was put on and judged by the local Camaro club, Adams and some GM reps. Hardly experienced 1000pt judges.
This was hardly a concours event (and nor should it be) though I do see where you're going. Judging for our categories (at least for the awards we've chosen the last 2 years) were very 'seat of the pants' with our staff all walking the area, picking their favorites, debating the choices and picking winners.

In the future I think a point system is something that should be published in advance for the entrants to see and the judges to follow. Not a 1000 pt system, but some variation. I've been involved in judging shows for a long time now (mostly show truck events back in CA) and there are a few systems we could implement for C5Fest next year that would be easy to follow, fair, and consistent.

Not to mention relevant for the cars in attendance... I mean its not like we were judging pebble beach here. It was a semi-muddy parking lot surrounded by corn fields and a dragstrip in Indiana... not exactly the kind of event you get your white inspectors gloves out for and check the underside of the rockers for dust.
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Old 08-07-2013, 06:24 PM   #50
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this was an outdoor show, If you go to win an award, you have lost before you start. I have lots of work in my car as do others, and I have been an ISCA judge for over 10 years, dont confuse the indoor show circuit whith shows like the one at c5. congrats to all the winners, they are all deserving and my hat goes off to the staff who judged them.
I go to outdoor shows that are judged in the manner I describe.
I've taken home many Best in Class awards with my stock vehicles as well.
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1994 Grand Prix SE B4U
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