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Old 07-07-2009, 11:49 PM   #1
Mohrg Beast
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V6 Superchargers / Turbo / Twin Turbo

Can anyone tell us where to buy performance boosters for the V6's. Like superchargers,turbos,or twin turbos or anything that will boost hp of the V6's. Seems like nothing right now is really for sale for these engines, if they are they are very well hidden..So if you guys know let us in on it so we can try em out and let everyone else know how they work out on our rides.
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Old 07-08-2009, 01:16 AM   #2
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im goign with cold airintake changing the exhaust and supercharger...could go aftermarket but waiting a few more months to see what GM has to offer..i live in kansas so wont be driving in the winter plan on modding the crap out of this thing then..so got a few months before the big search for parts..the one thing i dont think ill be able to get from GM is the tune but ill find one somewhere..hell theres good people on here ..should be able to find everything you need on this site
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Old 07-08-2009, 01:29 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by acehole View Post
im goign with cold airintake changing the exhaust and supercharger...could go aftermarket but waiting a few more months to see what GM has to offer..i live in kansas so wont be driving in the winter plan on modding the crap out of this thing then..so got a few months before the big search for parts..the one thing i dont think ill be able to get from GM is the tune but ill find one somewhere..hell theres good people on here ..should be able to find everything you need on this site
you know i was gonna wait for winter too..i live in w.v. so winter is pretty bad here too..with the salt and all im not gonna drive mine much either..for at least the worse parts..but i wanna enjoy the upgrades as soon as i put them on..how you gonna feel once you put that stuff on but cant drive it..itll drive you nuts till you just say hell with it and go for it..and you still wont be able to fully enjoy it for fear of ice..LOL.
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Old 07-08-2009, 12:12 PM   #4
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EDIT Thanks Mods for editing this thread...some people....

Jeeze....how the hell did a thread about a guy asking about aftermarket support for the V6 turn into slag fest...my god...who the hell cares if he has an Lancer....and a lancer is a nice car, dont knock it, and its not rice....now if he added a body kit and a fart can...rice...big time...

but i digress...how about some people here grow up and answer the mans question's, or at least tell him politely to search around as there are a bunch of threads about V6 performance


Here are a couple good threads about increasing the performance of the V6

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31182


http://www.camaro5.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16988&highlight=intake+exhaust+pl an+400

Also, here is a thread about a Turbo V6 work in progress
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29495

I would also like to add that using the search button is an easy way to find your answers and not be flamed by some members, so yea, in the future, but i gave you the above threads to start ya off

Enjoy your car!!! (i wish i had mine)
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Old 07-08-2009, 12:42 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acehole View Post
im goign with cold airintake changing the exhaust and supercharger...could go aftermarket but waiting a few more months to see what GM has to offer..i live in kansas so wont be driving in the winter plan on modding the crap out of this thing then..so got a few months before the big search for parts..the one thing i dont think ill be able to get from GM is the tune but ill find one somewhere..hell theres good people on here ..should be able to find everything you need on this site
Cold air intake is an NA bit bud, if you're supercharing than ambient temps post compressor aren't going to be affected by the incoming charge temp (not in the context of what minor changes in ambient can do anyway...)
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Old 07-08-2009, 12:50 PM   #6
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Cold air intake is an NA bit bud, if you're supercharing than ambient temps post compressor aren't going to be affected by the incoming charge temp.
You have great posts and you really know your stuff so please don't take this the wrong way, but it does still have an effect. There is roughly a 1% hp increase per 10 degree ambient Fahrenheit temp drop. Same as if you run your car at the strip on a 90 degree day versus a 50 degree day.
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Old 07-08-2009, 01:16 PM   #7
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You have great posts and you really know your stuff so please don't take this the wrong way, but it does still have an effect. There is roughly a 1% hp increase per 10 degree ambient Fahrenheit temp drop. Same as if you run your car at the strip on a 90 degree day versus a 50 degree day.
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Originally Posted by MadMaxx View Post
Cold air intake is an NA bit bud, if you're supercharing than ambient temps post compressor aren't going to be affected by the incoming charge temp (not in the context of what minor changes in ambient can do anyway...)
Yea, i was going to say....a compressor introduces a fixed temperature increase depending on the compression ratio. (aside from the heat added from friction, the engine and other fixed sources, which wont change based on the air intake config),

basic gas law....increased pressure, without a decrease in volume leads to an increase in temperature, since the intake manifold and supercharger casing dont change size, its a fixed volume, so any increase in pressure will increase temps proportionately (PressurexVolume=k x Temperature)

So since the super charger only adds a certain amount of heat any decrease in temp of the incoming air will also decrease the temp of the charge air from the super charger.

also since the super gets gets power from the engine (obviously) any decrease in resistance to bringing in the air results in the supercharger drawing less power away from the engine, leading to less parasitic power loss

A good cold air intake (actually draws in cold air...not engine bay air) will benefit all forms of intake systems....turbo, super, N/A
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Old 07-08-2009, 02:30 PM   #8
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Yea, i was going to say....a compressor introduces a fixed temperature increase depending on the compression ratio. (aside from the heat added from friction, the engine and other fixed sources, which wont change based on the air intake config),

basic gas law....increased pressure, without a decrease in volume leads to an increase in temperature, since the intake manifold and supercharger casing dont change size, its a fixed volume, so any increase in pressure will increase temps proportionately (PressurexVolume=k x Temperature)

So since the super charger only adds a certain amount of heat any decrease in temp of the incoming air will also decrease the temp of the charge air from the super charger.

also since the super gets gets power from the engine (obviously) any decrease in resistance to bringing in the air results in the supercharger drawing less power away from the engine, leading to less parasitic power loss

A good cold air intake (actually draws in cold air...not engine bay air) will benefit all forms of intake systems....turbo, super, N/A
While I normally agree with Maxx, this statement is 100% correct. A cold air intake will still help a blown engine.
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Old 07-08-2009, 04:05 PM   #9
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While I normally agree with Maxx, this statement is 100% correct. A cold air intake will still help a blown engine.
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Completely off topic, so sorry, but what color red is that on you tank? In the pic it looks different from the frame. That is a sweet paint job on that bike. Heck, that's just an awesome bike...
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Old 07-08-2009, 04:13 PM   #10
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Completely off topic, so sorry, but what color red is that on you tank? In the pic it looks different from the frame. That is a sweet paint job on that bike. Heck, that's just an awesome bike...
Heh, I couldn't tell you because its regretfully not my bike. My bike is currently torn into about 10,000 different pieces - thats merely the inspiration pic of what I want mine to look similar to when its done.

I'll be doing mine in candy apple red metallic, though.
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Old 07-08-2009, 04:28 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by speedster View Post
You have great posts and you really know your stuff so please don't take this the wrong way, but it does still have an effect. There is roughly a 1% hp increase per 10 degree ambient Fahrenheit temp drop. Same as if you run your car at the strip on a 90 degree day versus a 50 degree day.
1% increase is per ambient temp drop is a baseline number, but remember when air is compressed it's heated. In the case of a supercharger, even if the ambient temp is say 100degrees, the output temp (ie: post-compression) is going to be say 500degrees F. A 10deg increase in the original ambient source temp is going to have little to no affect on the output temperature -- perhaps less than a degree. This has little or no affect on the end result (Ie: horsepower as the final measurement). While having a lower intake charge *may* help increase power, it is highly subjective based on other environmental and design factors (type of engine, displacement, etc. etc).

It's safe to assume that in most cases, intercooling is also used. When this comes into play, the efficiency of the intercooling is the real factor, as outlet temps of compression tend to be a constant value at any given range.

In the grand scheme of things, the ability to delivery the correct VOLUME of air to the inlet far exceeds it's original temperature upon entry (for a street car). We get into turbine efficiency in jet engines for example, this changes a bit Point being -- focus less on trying to cool the air before it gets to the compressor (which you have a very limited ability to drop it any significant amount over actual ambient..) and more on post compressor.


Edited for my horrible spelling LOL

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Old 07-08-2009, 04:40 PM   #12
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Yea, i was going to say....a compressor introduces a fixed temperature increase depending on the compression ratio. (aside from the heat added from friction, the engine and other fixed sources, which wont change based on the air intake config),

basic gas law....increased pressure, without a decrease in volume leads to an increase in temperature, since the intake manifold and supercharger casing dont change size, its a fixed volume, so any increase in pressure will increase temps proportionately (PressurexVolume=k x Temperature)

So since the super charger only adds a certain amount of heat any decrease in temp of the incoming air will also decrease the temp of the charge air from the super charger.

also since the super gets gets power from the engine (obviously) any decrease in resistance to bringing in the air results in the supercharger drawing less power away from the engine, leading to less parasitic power loss

A good cold air intake (actually draws in cold air...not engine bay air) will benefit all forms of intake systems....turbo, super, N/A
Sure, the ability to reduce temps is, on paper, always going to generate lower output temps... but in the real world, it doesn't end up changing the bottom line much. The actual gains per dollar are very low in trying to extract the few extra HP out of a CAI system vs. just about anything else doesn't end up being economical. Diminishing returns plays a HUGE part in IC efficiency.

Good turbo + Tune > some logo'd plastic pipe with a filter
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Old 07-08-2009, 05:03 PM   #13
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1% increase is per ambient temp drop is a baseline number, but remember when air is compressed it's heated. In the case of a supercharger, even if the ambient temp is say 100degrees, the output temp (ie: post-compression) is going to be say 500degrees F. A 10deg increase in the original ambient source temp is going to have little to no affect on the output temperature -- perhaps less than a degree. This has little or no affect on the end result (Ie: horsepower as the final measurement). While having a lower intake charge *may* help increase power, it is highly subjective based on other environmental and design factors (type of engine, displacement, etc. etc).

It's safe to assume that in most cases, intercooling is also used. When this comes into play, the efficiency of the intercooling is the real factor, as outlet temps of compression tend to be a constant value at any given range.

In the grand scheme of things, the ability to delivery the correct VOLUME of air to the inlet far exceeds it's original temperature upon entry (for a street car). We get into turbine efficiency in jet engines for example, this changes a bit Point being -- focus less on trying to cool the air before it gets to the compressor (which you have a very limited ability to drop it any significant amount over actual ambient..) and more on post compressor.


Edited for my horrible spelling LOL

Actually, your numbers are way off. In order to produce 500* fahrenheit of output temperature in air, you would have to be using almost 60 psi of boost.

Ideal Gas Law states that pV = nRT. Therefore ........p(ATM) .....= .....p(final)
.................................................. ...................T(ambient) ..........T(final)

OR ....T(final) ......= ......p(final)
......T(ambient) ............p(ATM)

Which means that for 12 PSI of boost (random number for an example), your temperature will be 1.8 times your ambient (intake) temperature. If that temperature is 100 degrees, you're looking at 180 degrees of final temperature. With 90 degrees, you're looking at 162 degrees - 18 degrees of drop (Wow, thats MORE than on a N/A setup!).

Maxx, like I said before, I usually agree with you. But the physics is telling a completely different story than what you're telling.
- X

P.S. - Not saying that a CAI will make more effect than a tune and whatnot, but the numbers show that it does have an effect on output temps.
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Old 07-08-2009, 05:30 PM   #14
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Actually, your numbers are way off. In order to produce 500* fahrenheit of output temperature in air, you would have to be using almost 60 psi of boost.
Hence it being a value of X... some random number just to illustrate a point that the ultimate change of output temps has little to do with the relatively MINOR changes one can actually inact on the intake temps. I didn't expect someone to take it literally

I do like your quick google graph though.

Quote:
Which means that for 12 PSI of boost (random number for an example), your temperature will be 1.8 times your ambient (intake) temperature. If that temperature is 100 degrees, you're looking at 180 degrees of final temperature. With 90 degrees, you're looking at 162 degrees - 18 degrees of drop (Wow, thats MORE than on a N/A setup!).

Maxx, like I said before, I usually agree with you. But the physics is telling a completely different story than what you're telling.
- X

P.S. - Not saying that a CAI will make more effect than a tune and whatnot, but the numbers show that it does have an effect on output temps.
No one said it *DIDN'T* have an affect on output temp (notice I actually did, but I was being far to broad apparently LOL) but to which degree it would actually be helpful is the point. You're, I'm assuming, intentionally leaving out intercooling -- the one thing that matters most when dealing with modern forced induction.

A true 10degree reduction in elevated ambient temp (ie: by the time it actually makes it to the inlet of X) is actually somewhat tough to come by in many cases. Even if you managed to achieve 10deg in your example, you reduced outlet temps by <20deg. Congrats, you - on paper - achieved a 1.8% increase in HP or approximately 5hp at the flywheel on 304bhp. On a 400hp setup (again, being generally broad) that's around 7hp. I struggle to constrain my enthusiasm over 7hp...really.

The spread of that same outlet temp vs. the modified outlet temp when passed over an intercooler (again -- overly broad examples here folks) the gap narrows quite a bit. Diminishing returns my friends... it's a bitch :(

I'm not exactly new to the turbo world, and all I'm doing is giving real world examples on what priorty should be. I don't bench race, I don't theorycraft on what xxxxxx combo would make -- I only care about something functioning it's best for the lowest investment possible

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Old 07-08-2009, 05:34 PM   #15
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Heh - apparently we're both only looking at part of the others posts.

The point I was trying to make is that no, a CAI would not replace intercooling in a typical forced induction setup (though with a low PSI setup it may bring you back down to norman IATs). However, that is not to say that it would produce NO benefit. And personally, I'd rather take an additional 7 horsepower if I could get it with something as simple as a CAI than leave it off just because it was "only 7 horsepower."
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Old 07-08-2009, 05:45 PM   #16
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Heh - apparently we're both only looking at part of the others posts.

The point I was trying to make is that no, a CAI would not replace intercooling in a typical forced induction setup (though with a low PSI setup it may bring you back down to norman IATs). However, that is not to say that it would produce NO benefit. And personally, I'd rather take an additional 7 horsepower if I could get it with something as simple as a CAI than leave it off just because it was "only 7 horsepower."
- X
Long day bud...long day

7hp extra would be fun -- but not at the added expense of using someone's "CAI" product (in most cases wouldn't be viable for a turbo/centrifugal SC setup since none of it would line up w/ stock locations). Well thought out placement is good, but spending much time beyond that isn't really worth it in the long run. In most cases, you'll never see the full "theoretical" number unless you get viable benchmarking post IC. IC efficiency > all
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Old 07-08-2009, 05:50 PM   #17
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Long day bud...long day

7hp extra would be fun -- but not at the added expense of using someone's "CAI" product (in most cases wouldn't be viable for a turbo/centrifugal SC setup since none of it would line up w/ stock locations). Well thought out placement is good, but spending much time beyond that isn't really worth it in the long run. In most cases, you'll never see the full "theoretical" number unless you get viable benchmarking post IC. IC efficiency > all
Well, I'll agree that some kind of post charge cooling would be necessary. Depending on the setup, that could be from an intercooler, methanol, etc.
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Old 07-08-2009, 05:53 PM   #18
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IC's are so damn cheap these days, unless someone is using a remote mount system, they need to have a small frontmount.

Meth is sooooo much fun (used it on some of my more recent cars). I used to run alky back in the day (ha!) on my GN when I was in highschool. Every time CVS had a sale on rubbing alcohol I was there with coupons in hand hehehe... they ended up knowing me by name. Good times, good times...

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Old 07-08-2009, 07:21 PM   #19
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IC's are so damn cheap these days, unless someone is using a remote mount system, they need to have a small frontmount.

Meth is sooooo much (used it on some of my more recent cars). I used to run alky back in the day (ha!) on my GN when I was in highschool. Every time CVS had a sale on rubbing alcohol I was there with coupons in hand hehehe...I like you - I used to do that stuff too ! Heck, I still do... they ended up knowing me by name. Good times, good times...
Agree - IC, Meth and Intake Air all help but in varying degrees and in different capacities. Just like you I have many personal real world examples - Turbos,Centrifugal, Roots and Turbines.

Nice to see good positive discussions on the site.
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Old 07-08-2009, 11:03 PM   #20
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EDIT Thanks Mods for editing this thread...some people....

Jeeze....how the hell did a thread about a guy asking about aftermarket support for the V6 turn into slag fest...my god...who the hell cares if he has an Lancer....and a lancer is a nice car, dont knock it, and its not rice....now if he added a body kit and a fart can...rice...big time...

but i digress...how about some people here grow up and answer the mans question's, or at least tell him politely to search around as there are a bunch of threads about V6 performance


Here are a couple good threads about increasing the performance of the V6

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31182


http://www.camaro5.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16988&highlight=intake+exhaust+pl an+400

Also, here is a thread about a Turbo V6 work in progress
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29495

I would also like to add that using the search button is an easy way to find your answers and not be flamed by some members, so yea, in the future, but i gave you the above threads to start ya off

Enjoy your car!!! (i wish i had mine)
wow man thanks soo much..the first thread was just trash talking..sorry about agging it on. but every thread even threads about just tinting people are doing that whole rice thing..omg its soo annoying.and most dont even drive camaros..but about the thread thing..i was wanting just a thread for turbo supercharger or twin turbo info. the others i have seen are all performance parts. there are a bunch of us looking and cant find anything.so i wrote this one to get down to just these items..thank you soo much for looking out though..means alot.
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Old 07-08-2009, 11:07 PM   #21
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Cold air intake is an NA bit bud, if you're supercharing than ambient temps post compressor aren't going to be affected by the incoming charge temp (not in the context of what minor changes in ambient can do anyway...)
sorry for the very dumb question..what does NA mean..i havent been posting for long.
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Old 07-08-2009, 11:16 PM   #22
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glad i got this site up so you two super charger nerds could have a chess battle of temperature ratios. and i must say it was a wit battle of epic porportions..lol..glad that discussion got started for you guys..reminds me of movies where you see two old men in the park arguing rocket science..LOL..keep it up guys..very impressive ramblings you two got going..thanks for always answering questions i have..both of you are incredibly helpful..i try to help out as much as i can, but usually get no help in return. but you two always help when you can..very appreciated.
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Old 07-09-2009, 12:26 AM   #23
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sorry for the very dumb question..what does NA mean..i havent been posting for long.
na means naturally aspirated as in not using a method of "forced" induction
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Old 07-09-2009, 11:18 AM   #24
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glad i got this site up so you two super charger nerds could have a chess battle of temperature ratios. and i must say it was a wit battle of epic porportions..lol..glad that discussion got started for you guys..reminds me of movies where you see two old men in the park arguing rocket science..LOL..keep it up guys..very impressive ramblings you two got going..thanks for always answering questions i have..both of you are incredibly helpful..i try to help out as much as i can, but usually get no help in return. but you two always help when you can..very appreciated.
No worries - Glad to be able to help! Thats 98% of what I'm here for until I get my car next year (going to wait for the 2011 model for various reasons); the other 2% being that this is a wonderful place to keep track of what various performance parts manufacturers are coming out with.
- X
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Old 07-10-2009, 09:00 PM   #25
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Great NEws

Some great news as of now, is that two people contacted me about a possible turbo system. One was a reply from STS. now ive heard alot of this and that about that kind of system but i seen some older comments from "X" and he seemed quite interested at the time about it, so i checked out the site for myself. I emailed them and the very next morning they contacted me back with a number , a "personal" number to talk personnally with a seller there to customize my turbos, that if i decide to go with them will be a twin turbo kit. But a fellow member of camaro5 contacted me and is wanting to talk with me about a turbo from their company, in which they are just finishing up an SS turbo, now need to six to work with..i will definately keep you guys up to date about whats going on..hopefully ill be putting a turbo on my ride sometime within a month.
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