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Old 08-25-2013, 12:12 AM   #35
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Camaro historians correct me if I step on the truth. The original ZL1 as all COPOs, and the Z/28 could be ordered with any Camaro option except A/C. But most COPOs at least were strippers.

The current naming makes great sense. The Z/28 is the car with road racing as a major influence to its genetics in both cases. The ZL1 is a heavier car (as were the big block COPOs, but maybe not the original ZL1) that with good drag racing prep, could smash the Z/28 in the quarter mile. This will be true with the current cars too. The current ZL1 is no too hard to get into the 10s to follow the parallels.

The original COPOs were mostly used as race cars, so that name makes sense too.

The one big difference in the current ZL1 is that it is a good road track car as well a fast car in the 1/4 mile. But on a road track it will have to take a back seat to the Z/28 as this is what the was Z/28 bred for.

I think the Z/28 name was sullied in Gen 3 + 4 Camaros. GM is trying to re-establish the Z/28 image in the best way possible, with results at the track. We shall see.
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Old 08-25-2013, 01:13 AM   #36
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Al nailed it with this decision. The OP is used seeing the loaded Z28 and we have the Z/28 track car.

The most powerful car was always the ZL1 which we now have again. Two cars to choose from instead of one, and both true to form.
+1 -- I'm sticking with Al on this one. As far as I'm concerned, he's one of the True Keepers Of The Flame...
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Old 08-25-2013, 11:26 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Fraxum View Post
Camaro historians correct me if I step on the truth. The original ZL1 as all COPOs, and the Z/28 could be ordered with any Camaro option except A/C. But most COPOs at least were strippers.

The current naming makes great sense. The Z/28 is the car with road racing as a major influence to its genetics in both cases. The ZL1 is a heavier car (as were the big block COPOs, but maybe not the original ZL1) that with good drag racing prep, could smash the Z/28 in the quarter mile. This will be true with the current cars too. The current ZL1 is no too hard to get into the 10s to follow the parallels.

The original COPOs were mostly used as race cars, so that name makes sense too.

The one big difference in the current ZL1 is that it is a good road track car as well a fast car in the 1/4 mile. But on a road track it will have to take a back seat to the Z/28 as this is what the was Z/28 bred for.

I think the Z/28 name was sullied in Gen 3 + 4 Camaros. GM is trying to re-establish the Z/28 image in the best way possible, with results at the track. We shall see.
- The original ZL1 was a true stripper car; in essence just the ZL1 427 motor dropped in a V6 Camaro including hub caps and all. Not much to look at either. The option itself was just as much as the base price of the car. As for performance it was not good as it should have been because the motor was set up more for Can Am racing than drag racing (much like the Boss 429). However, there was some early road tests of a ZL1 Vette with a TH400 that ran high 10's.

- The original production Z/28 was not a road race car; plain and simple. It was only made so GM could enter certain SCCA classes to race against Ford. The cars that won were true race cars that shared very little with the production version. Same goes for the original Boss 302.

Fast forward to now and both GM and Ford have decided to bring the modern version of the Boss 302 and Z/28 closer to the racing heritage of the original cars (and not the production version) which is fine; but one wonders why they didn't offer a more streetable version as well for the masses without watering down the performance. Either way, I'm glad GM brought back the Z/28.
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Old 08-25-2013, 01:21 PM   #38
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- The original ZL1 was a true stripper car; in essence just the ZL1 427 motor dropped in a V6 Camaro including hub caps and all. Not much to look at either. The option itself was just as much as the base price of the car. As for performance it was not good as it should have been because the motor was set up more for Can Am racing than drag racing (much like the Boss 429). However, there was some early road tests of a ZL1 Vette with a TH400 that ran high 10's.

- The original production Z/28 was not a road race car; plain and simple. It was only made so GM could enter certain SCCA classes to race against Ford. The cars that won were true race cars that shared very little with the production version. Same goes for the original Boss 302.

Fast forward to now and both GM and Ford have decided to bring the modern version of the Boss 302 and Z/28 closer to the racing heritage of the original cars (and not the production version) which is fine; but one wonders why they didn't offer a more streetable version as well for the masses without watering down the performance. Either way, I'm glad GM brought back the Z/28.
You need to go back and check some of the "facts".
The ZL1 was mostly ordered as a stripper, but didn't have to be and some weren't.
The SCCA required the production models have what the race cars had, hence the cross-ram, headers (in the trunk), 4wheel disc brakes, etc. The modifications for the racecars from there were roll-bars, engine tweaking,...and the "illegal" hidden changes they made.
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Old 08-25-2013, 02:40 PM   #39
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Everyone's points are valid, but to say they got it backwards or even wrong is just, wrong.

Automakers have proved time and time again that a badge is just a badge. There are way too many examples to list. I am happy with the fact that our Camaro's didn't suffer the same fate as so many other re-badged cars (Nova, GTO, Charger to name only a few). They were always 2 door, 4 seat cars. During the late 70's and 80's they suffered the same fate as so many other models, but at least they were never turned into something they weren't.

When I took ownership of of my 69 Camaro from my father some 28 years ago, I had always dreamed that I would someday own a Yenko, COPO, Zl-1, Z/28... Knowing that it would most likely never happen. Now I own something that I've always wanted (just 40+years newer). At least it's not a 4cyl. Compact Nova.
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Old 08-26-2013, 07:22 PM   #40
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There's no bible or commandments that say a specific model car or name is restricted by any of its characteristics. The auto makers have the freedom to name their products however they choose, to sell the most of them.

The Chevrolet Malibu, Impala and Dodge Charger are now 4 door sedans and are well accepted as such, though originally they were all 2 Door coupes. 40 Years from now we may see a 4 door Camaro Z/28. Then we can all listen to the live feeds of arguments on Camaro10.com about what the Camaro Z/28 name really meant. I wonder which crowd will be considered confused then.

Our great, great grand children may be very happy to reminisce about out passion for the Z/28 when they buy their first Camaro Z/28 People Mover.


You do realize that all those examples you gave were also available in four door models and not just coupes? At least the Chevys. I'm not 100% positive on the Dodge, but I think it was too.


Also, I don't know what that thing is, but it's kinda cool.
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Old 08-26-2013, 07:43 PM   #41
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You need to go back and check some of the "facts".
The ZL1 was mostly ordered as a stripper, but didn't have to be and some weren't.
The SCCA required the production models have what the race cars had, hence the cross-ram, headers (in the trunk), 4wheel disc brakes, etc. The modifications for the racecars from there were roll-bars, engine tweaking,...and the "illegal" hidden changes they made.
You have learned well, Grasshopper...

Actually, 2 of the 69 COPO 9560s (ZL1-engined, #2 and #69) were DOUBLE COPO and included the 9737 Sports Car Conversion Package, which essentially included the Z/28 suspension/wheels/tires. With roughly-equal Curb Weight, you can imagine their overall capabilities...

http://www.camaros.org/9560list.shtml

COPOs, both 9560 and iron-blocked 9561, were essentially built from non-badged SS 395-375 hp Camaros, NOT 6-cylinder-spec chassis.

BTW, Ford tried to compete carb-for-carb in '68, advertised Tunnel Ram 302s in their brochures, built ONE for C&D to test, but NEVER factory-assembled 'em. See post #30, above...

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Old 08-26-2013, 08:47 PM   #42
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I liked this 69 DOUBLE COPO displayed at an all Camaro show hosted by the Delaware Valley Camaro Club a year back.
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Old 08-26-2013, 09:41 PM   #43
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You have learned well, Grasshopper...

Actually, 2 of the 69 COPO 9560s (ZL1-engined, #2 and #69) were DOUBLE COPO and included the 9737 Sports Car Conversion Package, which essentially included the Z/28 suspension/wheels/tires. With roughly-equal Curb Weight, you can imagine their overall capabilities...

http://www.camaros.org/9560list.shtml

COPOs, both 9560 and iron-blocked 9561, were essentially built from non-badged SS 395-375 hp Camaros, NOT 6-cylinder-spec chassis.

BTW, Ford tried to compete carb-for-carb in '68, advertised Tunnel Ram 302s in their brochures, built ONE for C&D to test, but NEVER factory-assembled 'em. See post #30, above...
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Old 08-26-2013, 09:42 PM   #44
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I liked this 69 DOUBLE COPO displayed at an all Camaro show hosted by the Delaware Valley Camaro Club a year back.
I love it! It's only missing the RS package Z22.
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Old 08-26-2013, 10:19 PM   #45
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...and it's apparently the LAST ONE built...number 69 of 69 in 69...
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Old 08-27-2013, 12:08 AM   #46
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...crazy aluminum high compressions HP motors, or any block and head combination for that matter back when with high compression.....time bombs...hand grenades.....fussy....just awesome...those were the days....I digress.
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Old 08-27-2013, 10:59 AM   #47
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...and it's apparently the LAST ONE built...number 69 of 69 in 69...
Probably worth a pretty penny or two.
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Old 08-27-2013, 10:27 PM   #48
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....bring back the protecto plate!
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Old 08-28-2013, 10:09 PM   #49
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Eh, I'm still waiting for the 302 CID Z/28 to run against my car.
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Old 08-28-2013, 10:09 PM   #50
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I liked this 69 DOUBLE COPO displayed at an all Camaro show hosted by the Delaware Valley Camaro Club a year back.
Love it. Especially the colour.
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Old 08-28-2013, 10:28 PM   #51
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Eh, I'm still waiting for the 302 CID Z/28 to run against my car.
....you can wait untill the gates of hell freeze over, because that ain't ever gonna happen again....
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Love it. Especially the colour.
...if not for the Ford rivalry, what fun would be there, eh? I'll never forget getting a ride home in a '70 Mach 1 factory stock Mustang way back when...saying it was fun is an understatement.
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