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Old 07-09-2009, 02:54 PM   #1
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Steering response....

Alright. We know our car has a little under steer problem.(weight considered)
For those of us that live for the twisties, what are you going to do to improve it?
My thoughts are to eliminate the staggered tires, not knowing if I want more narrow tread in back or more up front? Kind of a trade off? Going negative camber to off set outter edge tire wear will help a little as well. I really don't know how much of an improvement specific to steering response I'd get going with coil over system? A slight drop front and back with a stiffer spring rate is going to help but I don't see it helping much without sacrificing the ride quality?
Opinions?
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Old 07-09-2009, 03:31 PM   #2
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check how much toe-in you have
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Old 07-09-2009, 07:58 PM   #3
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What, are there no SCCA or IMSA guy's in here?
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Old 07-09-2009, 08:17 PM   #4
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well, there are a few things that you can do to improve handling, and help with the understeer.

1. Caster Adjustment, the Camaro comes from the factory with no Caster adjustment. We however have an upgraded bushing, that comes with Caster washers (modification of the bolt holes required)

2. Camber will help, though much more than 1 degree and you risk tire wear issues.

3. Sway Bars, we will have adjustable front sway bars available soon, and have an adjustable rear sway bar available already. having the adjustability will help setting up the car a lot.

4. Non staggered tires are better for road racing

5. increased coil rates with a lowered stance for a lower CG.

6. not for oversteer/understeer so much, but the bushings, especially in the rear of the car will help the feel and control of the car a ton. The rear sub frame bushings allow the rear cradle to twist under hard driving, and this can effect the confidence you have in the corners, as well as the traction.

hows that for a start.
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Old 07-09-2009, 10:03 PM   #5
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Get rid of the staggered setup; go with same size rims all the way around... 8, 8.5, 9" wide, whichever you prefer. I'm probably going to go with 8.5's. Reduce unsprung weight to improve suspension/steering response. I'm going to do this with lighter rims and brake rotors. The setup I'm going with I'm estimating will save about 18 lbs of unsprung weight per corner.

As Rob from Wretched said, adjustable sway bars; but if you've never setup a car before I highly recommend you do some research on this so you don't mess up the handling. Think safety first; if you aren't sure, don't mess with it until you are sure what you're doing. Make small adjustments and test; do one thing at a time so you know what adjustment had what effect. Noobies will make all kinds of adjustments at one time, then go out to test and not have a clue what adjustment did what or what's working/isn't working and why. Be patient when setting up a car for handling.

You can go to all kinds of levels of handling and performance, just depends on what you want to do, how you're going to use it, and what you want to live with. You can make it handle like a Formula 1 car but then you'd need a kidney belt and mouth protector to drive it on the street; you'd feel the paint in a crosswalk when driving over it. What's your intended use?

For a decent street machine I'd say lighter rims, brake rotors, sway bars, better bushings. If you want more than that look into coils, spring rates, etc. but that's more involved and complicates the setup process. You'd be surprised though at how much you can accomplish just with adjustable sway bars and better bushings; try that first.

Or better yet tell us what you're looking for in performance and how/where you're going to use it.
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Old 07-10-2009, 12:52 AM   #6
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Pedders has done a serious amount of R&D on the ZETA platform. Several things to discuss:
1. Staggered wheels and tires will increase understeer. so go with a oversized equal tire on all 4 corners a 275 is a easy tire to get in
2. The back end needs to be approx 15mm lower than the front. This will help significantly
3. Increase negative cambers in the front
4. reduce front toe or even go slightly toe out
5. Increase sway bars
6. Lower the front and rear and increase coil rates

These are a couple of things to think about.

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Old 07-10-2009, 02:26 AM   #7
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Strut tower bars! Why did they put the hood prop on the strut tower? I also wonder if a strut tower bar would clear the hood and the engine?
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Old 07-10-2009, 07:53 AM   #8
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Thanks Doc. Primary goals are as I indicated in the first post. Try to minimize the OE ride quality while maximizing steering response. IE; losing the under steer.
My driving will be primarily fair to poor road back road condition. I noticed you are anchored in Cali. If you know roads such as the Silverado trail in Calistoga, St. Helena, Middletown area those are the style roads I live for. I will also be looking at track time at Lime Rock in CT and hope to be able to visit Watkins Glen in NY. If I were in CA, I'd be looking to get on my favorite track in the world. Laguna Seca.
I have a fair amount of suspension geometry so no worries of rookie exuberance. I agree if you don't going in, you could really FSU by the reason you explained.
My counter to your points will debate gains through weight loss specific upgrade and cost effectiveness as opposed to outright upgrades?
Breaking that down, reducing the unsprung weight means a brake rotor upgrade and wheels swap. Would I realize more improvement say keeping the weight, taking that money and investing it in say a set of coil overs? I think the other upgrades you mentioned are,"done deal" stuff needed to achieve my need.

Thanks for your your .03 there Mike. I did enjoy our lengthy phone conversation last week.

I also agree with you wolverine. As far as I know, nobody has even been going hard on designing a STB for the cammy yet?

opinions? Thanks!
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Old 07-10-2009, 11:20 AM   #9
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One of our Camaro modders is redesigning a different billet hinge that will eliminate the hood shock. Then we will have room for a STB. But putting on a STB without substantial suspension mods may look good, but you will not experience any gains.

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Old 07-10-2009, 11:43 AM   #10
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Thanks Doc. Primary goals are as I indicated in the first post. Try to minimize the OE ride quality while maximizing steering response. IE; losing the under steer.
My driving will be primarily fair to poor road back road condition. I noticed you are anchored in Cali. If you know roads such as the Silverado trail in Calistoga, St. Helena, Middletown area those are the style roads I live for. I will also be looking at track time at Lime Rock in CT and hope to be able to visit Watkins Glen in NY. If I were in CA, I'd be looking to get on my favorite track in the world. Laguna Seca.
I have a fair amount of suspension geometry so no worries of rookie exuberance. I agree if you don't going in, you could really FSU by the reason you explained.
My counter to your points will debate gains through weight loss specific upgrade and cost effectiveness as opposed to outright upgrades?
Breaking that down, reducing the unsprung weight means a brake rotor upgrade and wheels swap. Would I realize more improvement say keeping the weight, taking that money and investing it in say a set of coil overs? I think the other upgrades you mentioned are,"done deal" stuff needed to achieve my need.

Thanks for your your .03 there Mike. I did enjoy our lengthy phone conversation last week.

I also agree with you wolverine. As far as I know, nobody has even been going hard on designing a STB for the cammy yet?

opinions? Thanks!
Ah, a racing man.

Are you going to weekend race or go official SCCA? If official, you'll have to comply with the rules for the class you're entering which will dictate what you're allowed to do and stay "legal" within your class. If weekend/fun runs, then go for what your budget and will desires. For track, get a set of light 18" rims if you can find some that fit over the brakes; Falken or whatever racing brand tires you prefer as a "racing set" so you don't thrash your street wheels. Obviously, low profile tires to improve steering response. If you're going to casual race and want to stick with street rims and tires, get a lighter 20" street rim; I'm going with 3-piece forged. For tires I'd say Falken 452's or something close that will be reasonably affordable and a good performer. Unless you have a deep wallet, Pirelli's get expensive to replace every few months if you race often. The Falken's are about half the price. You can get 452's for about $185 in stock sizes versus $350 or more for Pirelli's.

Check out racingbrake.com for lighter rotors and steel braided brake lines. Do those first before doing springs/suspension mods. DMS above from Pedders had good comments about suspension mods. Get the suspension and chassis set up before adding power; it's much easier to setup when you aren't trying to harness gobs of power too.

I'm looking into a carbon fiber driveshaft which will reduce about 50 lbs of weight and improve engine response and drivetrain efficiency. Should be in the $800-$1000 range and be a good mod for street and track.

You can also do little things like titanium fasteners everywhere it's feasible to reduce pounds, remove the electric motor system in the seats and replace with stock seats or even go with a racing seat if you seriously race.

Reduce weight and balance; key areas for good performance. Makes it much easier and fun to drive a car that responds the way you want it to. Nothing is more frustrating than fighting a slug of a car that just won't freaking hold the corners. You can add power later. Many guys make the mistake of thinking they just need power to go fast and then can't understand why they aren't competitive. Power is useless if you can't control it.

Are you going to make a journal for your project? I'd love to follow your progress!
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Old 07-10-2009, 03:14 PM   #11
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I will probably keep this thread as a place to record upgrades and such.
I shared seat time with a friend in SCCA in the mid 90's.(69 Boss 429) To rich for my blood now. I will be once a month at a track though. So serious yes, crazed, no. I will not get down to counting ounces to cut weight. Though I agree if crazed that is mandatory. I like the driveshaft upgrade. That will be at the top of the secondary upgrade list. I've ARH LT's with cats n x pipe ordered. I will likely go with the vararam CAI. And a tune for power in the initial upgrades. Suspension is next. Rob will be hearing from me soon. I will take you advise on a lighter track set of wheels. And a set of track tread. I will be driving it to the tracks. With a chase/tool/parts truck of course. Thanks Doc!
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Old 07-10-2009, 11:44 PM   #12
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I will probably keep this thread as a place to record upgrades and such.
I shared seat time with a friend in SCCA in the mid 90's.(69 Boss 429) To rich for my blood now. I will be once a month at a track though. So serious yes, crazed, no. I will not get down to counting ounces to cut weight. Though I agree if crazed that is mandatory. I like the driveshaft upgrade. That will be at the top of the secondary upgrade list. I've ARH LT's with cats n x pipe ordered. I will likely go with the vararam CAI. And a tune for power in the initial upgrades. Suspension is next. Rob will be hearing from me soon. I will take you advise on a lighter track set of wheels. And a set of track tread. I will be driving it to the tracks. With a chase/tool/parts truck of course. Thanks Doc!
I'm going to do almost exactly the same setup on power upgrades. For track rims look into Enkei RPF-1's. They have them in 18 x 8.5 and they weigh 18.3 lbs. The stock 20" rims weigh 32 lbs so that would reduce unsprung weight by 14 lbs just for the rims alone. Each pound of unsprung weight saved has the effect of reducing car weight by 20 lbs, so saving 14 lbs has the same effect as reducing 280 lbs of vehicle weight. Only thing I don't know is if the RPF-1's will clear the brakes but if they do it's a very popular racing rim. Falken makes a 235/40x18 Z rated tire that weighs about 26 lbs and costs about $155 each. You could have a full set of race tires for that rim size for under $700. The stock Pirelli P-Zeros that come with the car weigh 32 lbs each.

If you go with the 2-piece racingbrake rotors which are 9 lbs lighter, the RPF-1's in the 18's which are 14 lbs lighter, and the Falkens in that size which are 6 lbs lighter, you're saving a total of 29 lbs of unsprung weight per corner. That's the equivalent effect of reducing your car weight by 580 lbs. Do that first, then get the suspension set up and you'd have a great handling car.

Good idea on the "mobile pit". Sounds like you're familiar with the process. This should be a fun car to race!
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Old 07-11-2009, 09:30 AM   #13
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I'm going to do almost exactly the same setup on power upgrades. For track rims look into Enkei RPF-1's. They have them in 18 x 8.5 and they weigh 18.3 lbs. The stock 20" rims weigh 32 lbs so that would reduce unsprung weight by 14 lbs just for the rims alone. Each pound of unsprung weight saved has the effect of reducing car weight by 20 lbs, so saving 14 lbs has the same effect as reducing 280 lbs of vehicle weight. Only thing I don't know is if the RPF-1's will clear the brakes but if they do it's a very popular racing rim. Falken makes a 235/40x18 Z rated tire that weighs about 26 lbs and costs about $155 each. You could have a full set of race tires for that rim size for under $700. The stock Pirelli P-Zeros that come with the car weigh 32 lbs each.

If you go with the 2-piece racingbrake rotors which are 9 lbs lighter, the RPF-1's in the 18's which are 14 lbs lighter, and the Falkens in that size which are 6 lbs lighter, you're saving a total of 29 lbs of unsprung weight per corner. That's the equivalent effect of reducing your car weight by 580 lbs. Do that first, then get the suspension set up and you'd have a great handling car.

Good idea on the "mobile pit". Sounds like you're familiar with the process. This should be a fun car to race!
Someone has already been doing their home work! Your ahead of me Doc. Your unsprung weight reduction tips up there are something that everyone that can afford, should seriously look at if they intend to power mod their car. Whether straight line or road course those initial upgrades will drastically improve the cars agility and handling characteristics. Comparatively to the bolt on power gains. I know it's hard for some to translate UNSPRUNG weight loss to actual power gain, but it is fact. I know it's not as,"sexy" to gain power by weight reduction, but just think how the added bolt on's will feel after the weight loss.
Thanks again Doc,good stuff!
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Old 07-11-2009, 10:03 AM   #14
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I'm going to do almost exactly the same setup on power upgrades. For track rims look into Enkei RPF-1's. They have them in 18 x 8.5 and they weigh 18.3 lbs. The stock 20" rims weigh 32 lbs so that would reduce unsprung weight by 14 lbs just for the rims alone. Each pound of unsprung weight saved has the effect of reducing car weight by 20 lbs, so saving 14 lbs has the same effect as reducing 280 lbs of vehicle weight. Only thing I don't know is if the RPF-1's will clear the brakes but if they do it's a very popular racing rim. Falken makes a 235/40x18 Z rated tire that weighs about 26 lbs and costs about $155 each. You could have a full set of race tires for that rim size for under $700. The stock Pirelli P-Zeros that come with the car weigh 32 lbs each.

If you go with the 2-piece racingbrake rotors which are 9 lbs lighter, the RPF-1's in the 18's which are 14 lbs lighter, and the Falkens in that size which are 6 lbs lighter, you're saving a total of 29 lbs of unsprung weight per corner. That's the equivalent effect of reducing your car weight by 580 lbs. Do that first, then get the suspension set up and you'd have a great handling car.

Good idea on the "mobile pit". Sounds like you're familiar with the process. This should be a fun car to race!
So let me get this straight. The Enkei wheels are 14lbs lighter a piece. 14x4=56lbs. 56x20=1120lbs.

Falken tires weigh 6lbs less per tire. 6x4=24. 24x20=480lbs.

2pc rotors are 9lbs less per rotor. 9x4=36. 36x20=720lbs.

1120+480+720=2320lbs.

You mean to tell me that by removing 116lbs of unsprung weight from my car, it will handle/brake/accelerate as if I had removed 2320lbs of sprung weight? Does anyone else find this just a tiny bit flawed? I think you're off by a factor of 10. I've always read/heard that for every one pound of unsprung weight removed, it's like removing 2lbs of sprung weight. My car handling like I removed 232lbs of weight sounds slightly more realistic than 2320. Otherwise I'd be driving an Ariel Atom!
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Old 07-11-2009, 11:30 AM   #15
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So let me get this straight. The Enkei wheels are 14lbs lighter a piece. 14x4=56lbs. 56x20=1120lbs.

Falken tires weigh 6lbs less per tire. 6x4=24. 24x20=480lbs.

2pc rotors are 9lbs less per rotor. 9x4=36. 36x20=720lbs.

1120+480+720=2320lbs.

You mean to tell me that by removing 116lbs of unsprung weight from my car, it will handle/brake/accelerate as if I had removed 2320lbs of sprung weight? Does anyone else find this just a tiny bit flawed? I think you're off by a factor of 10. I've always read/heard that for every one pound of unsprung weight removed, it's like removing 2lbs of sprung weight. My car handling like I removed 232lbs of weight sounds slightly more realistic than 2320. Otherwise I'd be driving an Ariel Atom!
Oh no you misunderstood the ratio. Removing 1 pound of unsprung weight is = to removing 20 lbs of sprung weight is assumed to be a 4 corner reduction. If you get rims that weigh 1 lb less than stock you aren't getting just 1 rim. If you get a brake rotor that's lighter, you aren't getting just one rotor. That's factored into the 1 = 20. I gave the correct number in my post; it's 29 lbs x 20 = 580 lbs of sprung weight reduction. As far as actual dead weight, if you put your car on a truck scale it will weigh 116 lbs less. Unsprung weight reduction is an effect. Your 2SS which weighs 3860 stock, will perform like it weighs 3280.

The suspension has to handle the effects of the "unsprung" weight hanging at the 4 corners of the car. It takes power to spin up the weight, power to stop it, and the springs, shocks and sway bars have to dampen the vertical movement to control the tire staying on the ground. The more the weight, the more power it takes to start and stop, and the harder the suspension has to work to try and control it. This is why these guys who want to put 24" chrome plated rims on their car are murdering their performance. It goes the other way too. Those big rims weigh around 45 lbs which is 13 lbs more than stock, so 13 x 20 = the effect of 260 more pounds of sprung weight added to the car. It will slow down acceleration, take longer to stop the car, increase understeer; nothing good actually other than I guess they can look "badass" to whomever they think they're impressing.

If you ever get to drive or ride in a car that's been properly setup the way I've described, you'll be amazed at how different it feels. It actually feels lighter. It leaps off the line when you accelerate, brakes like you popped a drag chute, takes corners easily that a non-modified car strains at, and generally feels much more nimble and quick...because it actually is. Remember, performance = grip. The moment the tires are sliding you have a control issue and you're losing performance. It doesn't matter how much power you have if the tires aren't gripping.

If you get out on the track you'll notice the guys that just went with power look and sound great down the straight until the road curves, then all they do is eat the dust of the properly setup car. A good driver in a properly setup car doesn't even look like any big deal on the track, the car handles so well it looks like they're out there just cruising until the lap times pop up and then everyone else is going "damn, how'd he do that?" Lots of noise and sliding around looks dramatic and hollywood, but it kills your lap times.

Quarter mile is a different story but the basics of unsprung weight still apply. Guys who don't understand want to stuff the biggest rims they can in their wheel wells; the guys that go fast at the drags want the smallest rims they can get away with...there's a real good reason why.
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Old 07-11-2009, 12:34 PM   #16
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Gotcha. You're saying 1lb unsprung = 5lbs sprung. I misunderstood or misread or something and didn't realize the 20lbs was being spread across all 4 corners. 5:1 ratio still sounds a little optimistic, but I agree with what you're saying and how important it is. I'd like to see what a Camaro could do with 100lbs less unsprung weight and 150lbs less sprung weight could do. Lightness FTW!
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Old 07-11-2009, 01:20 PM   #17
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I am with you guys on this, And if you have the $ to do coilovers from pedders you will drop 40 lb in all,The engine cover is 8lb to, i think that the ARH headers is 40 LB lees than the cast header so 250 lb of less sprung weight is no big deal and 120 lb of less unsprung weight that is no big deal. And there is some more to remove.
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Old 07-13-2009, 02:15 PM   #18
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So I did a little research and Doc, you might have been a little optimistic.

I didn't think the stock driveshaft would even weigh 50lbs, much less would we be able to reduce its weight by 50lbs with a carbon fiber driveshaft. Here's an article testing a 4th gen Z28 with an LT1. I know the 5th gen's driveshaft is a 3 piece, but I doubt we'll save 50lbs. They shaved off 10lbs from the stocker's 19.4lbs.

http://www.acpt.com/article1.html

And the 2-piece rotors you were talking about saving 9lbs only holds true for the Z06 rotors. Using the CTS-V rotors, which are the same as what come on our Camaros, we will only save about 4.5lbs per front rotor, because they don't make rears. I don't understand that though. The Z06 rotor is the same diameter, but .2" thicker than ours, and yet the 2-piece rotors save 9lbs on the Z06 compared to only 4.5 for ours. Doesn't make sense to me.

http://www.racingbrake.com/CTS_V_FRO...p/2114-311.htm

Now if only a company would come out with affordable CCM brake rotors, we could save a ton of weight! Not sure I'd want to spend almost $1000 on 9lbs of weight savings on the rotors.
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Old 07-13-2009, 03:24 PM   #19
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I will not be swapping out rotors for weight. I will have a set of pads and rotors for the track. (undecided which) As far as street, I will be losing enough weight to satisfy me elsewhere. The OE brakes work well and will perform even better with the suspension upgrades and the weight lost. When the first set goes, cost/wear will decide it's replacements.
As far as the driveshaft, a carbon fiber unit is on of the best spots to reduce unsprung weight. Other then the wheels of course. And if you factor dead weight loss it will be 50 lbs.
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Old 07-13-2009, 10:55 PM   #20
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New here!! But thought I'd add a bit of info, The front rotor weight was 26 lbs on my scale. I had talk with wilwood about there two piece rotor and the weight came in at 14.7 lbs.
Also the rear tire with rim came in at 69 lbs.

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Old 07-13-2009, 11:02 PM   #21
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New here!! But thought I'd add a bit of info, The front rotor weight was 26 lbs on my scale. I had talk with wilwood about there two piece rotor and the weight came in at 14.7 lbs.
Also the rear tire with rim came in at 69 lbs.

Dave
Good info! This is what I've been looking for, actual weight values. Thanks!
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Old 07-14-2009, 12:43 AM   #22
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It is interesting the direction this thread is going!, LOL This weekend and today, the Pedders staff busted their butts on 2 Camaros. One with a full kit and Xa coil overs, and the other with just Xa coil overs. I am pleased to announce with a tire change our XA coil overs, we hit the 1.0g's on the skid pad. But took some serious adjustments to try and reduce the seriously negative affects of major understeer, excess body role, etc. We are going to make some slight changes for checking and evaluating in a couple of weeks.

So we have broken the poor handling wall the Camaro has for serious sports driving. More to come.

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Old 07-14-2009, 01:10 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by UsedTaHaveA68 View Post
So I did a little research and Doc, you might have been a little optimistic.

I didn't think the stock driveshaft would even weigh 50lbs, much less would we be able to reduce its weight by 50lbs with a carbon fiber driveshaft. Here's an article testing a 4th gen Z28 with an LT1. I know the 5th gen's driveshaft is a 3 piece, but I doubt we'll save 50lbs. They shaved off 10lbs from the stocker's 19.4lbs.

http://www.acpt.com/article1.html

And the 2-piece rotors you were talking about saving 9lbs only holds true for the Z06 rotors. Using the CTS-V rotors, which are the same as what come on our Camaros, we will only save about 4.5lbs per front rotor, because they don't make rears. I don't understand that though. The Z06 rotor is the same diameter, but .2" thicker than ours, and yet the 2-piece rotors save 9lbs on the Z06 compared to only 4.5 for ours. Doesn't make sense to me.

http://www.racingbrake.com/CTS_V_FRO...p/2114-311.htm

Now if only a company would come out with affordable CCM brake rotors, we could save a ton of weight! Not sure I'd want to spend almost $1000 on 9lbs of weight savings on the rotors.
The info I've been giving is based on estimates at this time; it's been difficult to get actual weight data because the cars are so new. My car is scheduled to go TPW on the 27th so if they build it as scheduled, I could get it mid to late August. Once I get my car I'll be posting actual values as I go along on the project.

I took a guess at around 65-70 lbs for the 2-piece driveshaft of the Camaro, and 15-20 lbs for a single piece carbon fiber replacement; both of which are probably a tad on the high side The stock shaft will probably be closer to 60 and the CF shaft closer to 10-12. Overall weight savings should be pretty darned close to 50 lbs though.

I read the article you mentioned but if you noticed it was written in 1997. Carbon fiber technology has come a long way in 12 years. The Z28 steel driveshaft they said they were using back then which they claimed weighed 19.4 lbs is a number I find hard to believe for a steel driveshaft. That sounds more like the weight of an aluminum shaft which was available for those cars.

I've included a pic below that shows the 2-piece driveshaft of the 2010 Camaro. A steel driveshaft that looks like that I'm going to guess would weigh at least 50 lbs. It probably has 8-10 lbs in joints and yokes alone.

If you read all that article it showed that even with a modest weight savings of only 10 lbs on the driveshaft the dyno still showed a solid 12 hp gain to the rear wheels at 5200 rpm. It will be much better than that on the 2010 Camaro. A one-piece CF driveshaft is definitely on my list of early mods.

As for brake rotors, the info that carriagehousecustoms posted shows the stock rotor weighing 26 lbs and with the 2-piece rotor he was looking at the weight savings was 11.3 lbs. That's huge. That alone would have the effect of reducing the car's sprung weight by 226 lbs. The prices of the Wilwoods are about inline with Racingbrake's. Good info!
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Old 07-14-2009, 01:21 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by dms View Post
It is interesting the direction this thread is going!, LOL This weekend and today, the Pedders staff busted their butts on 2 Camaros. One with a full kit and Xa coil overs, and the other with just Xa coil overs. I am pleased to announce with a tire change our XA coil overs, we hit the 1.0g's on the skid pad. But took some serious adjustments to try and reduce the seriously negative affects of major understeer, excess body role, etc. We are going to make some slight changes for checking and evaluating in a couple of weeks.

So we have broken the poor handling wall the Camaro has for serious sports driving. More to come.

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Good news! I'm not surprised at the body roll with a car that weighs almost 2 tons. Although that isn't necessarily a problem; you can always use the old Lotus racing prescription for handling which was soft springing and good damping. Their cars rolled a bit more than the competition but they won Formula 1 championships with that philosophy.

Did you have to sacrifice ride quality to get to 1g's on the skidpad? What tires did you change to? Stock 20" rims? Did you stick with the staggered rim sizes?

The stock weight balance of 52/48 they've designed is better than previous years but I'd still like to get mine to 51/49 if possible. That would help reduce the tendency to understeer.

Any idea yet on what the price is going to be for the handling package?
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Old 07-14-2009, 01:35 AM   #25
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That was Dale Jr's only Complaint on his test drive. "It don't need that much body roll" he said. Or something like that.
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