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Old 09-08-2013, 10:59 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by ddck24 View Post
Aid a little??? My iat's on the dyno went from 90degrees to 47degrees w/ 100% meth alky control kit...
Seems more than a little to me.. JMO
Just imagine of you had a water/meth mix.
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Old 09-08-2013, 11:01 PM   #27
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Matt's not wrong. You will get minimal cooling affect with straight meth inject.

You will NOT get max cooling without water being injected as well.

Ask yourself "why do people use a water/meth mix if the water portion is pointless"?

If you read the articles linked above you'll get some great info and be able to decide for yourself what is best for you.
Well ill let my tuner decide or chime in

I'm hardly spraying meth. When I press the purge I don't see changes in AFR till after 20-30 seconds. If its not for cooling and not for power then idk. I thought people wouldn't run 100% meth because the system wouldn't handle it
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Old 09-08-2013, 11:04 PM   #28
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I'd like to know as well. Meth will be part of my build plans here shortly after I add some more upgrades.

Matt@FSP has a kit I'm going with, not sure what we plan on using.
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Old 09-08-2013, 11:07 PM   #29
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Just imagine of you had a water/meth mix.
I don't like the idea of throwing water on the fire I'm trying to burn! Lol
More fuel, plenty cooling, high octane, more timing... Alky control 100% ftw!!
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Old 09-08-2013, 11:12 PM   #30
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I don't like the idea of throwing water on the fire I'm trying to burn! Lol
More fuel, plenty cooling, high octane, more timing... Alky control 100% ftw!!
Then you do not understand how a meth water system works or a breaking balls! The water evaporates becoming vapor. You aren't putting out any fires.

Water absorbs almost twice as much heat as methanol in the intake and inside the combustion chamber. Water cannot be flash-ignited, so has what is almost an infinite octane number. In the government studies for WWII piston-powered aircraft, 50/50 water-methanol was found to be the best fluid to use for auxiliary fluid injection.

It's a fact that water cools better than pure meth.

Again, everyone has their own opinions on what works and why but science is science.

You guys using it should do a few pulls on the dyno using both methods.

I ditched the meth and run race gas with an ice to water setup to control temps so unless I'm looking to steam clean my engine I have no use for methanol injection.
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Old 09-08-2013, 11:15 PM   #31
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Many water injection systems use a mixture of water and alcohol (often close to 50/50), with trace amounts of water-soluble oil. The water provides the primary cooling effect due to its great density and high heat absorption properties. The alcohol is combustible, and also serves as an antifreeze for the water. The main purpose of the oil is to prevent corrosion of water injection and fuel system components;[2] it may also assist in engine lubrication when running in a high power state.[citation needed] Because the alcohol mixed into the injection solution is often methanol (CH3OH), the system is known as methanol-water injection, or MW50. In high performance automotive applications these methanol-water mixtures are often erroneously referred to simply as "methanol injection". In the United States, the system is also commonly referred to as anti-detonant injection, or ADI.
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Old 09-08-2013, 11:16 PM   #32
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In a piston engine, the initial injection of water cools the fuel-air mixture significantly which increases its density and hence the amount of mixture that enters the cylinder. The water (if in small liquid droplets) may absorb heat (and lower the pressure) as the charge is compressed, thus reducing compression work.[1] An additional effect comes later during combustion when the water absorbs large amounts of heat as it vaporizes, reducing peak temperature and resultant NOx formation, and reducing the amount of heat energy absorbed into the cylinder walls. This also converts part of combustion energy from the form of heat to the form of pressure. As the water droplets vaporize by absorbing heat, they turn to high pressure steam. The alcohol in the mixture burns, but is also much more resistant to detonation than gasoline. The net result is a higher octane charge that will support very high compression ratios or significant forced induction pressures before onset of detonation.
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Old 09-08-2013, 11:26 PM   #33
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So needless to say it seems that for a stock bottom end motor looking for safety and some power 50/50 is the best way to go?
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Old 09-08-2013, 11:30 PM   #34
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So needless to say it seems that for a stock bottom end motor looking for safety and some power 50/50 is the best way to go?
I would say yes.

You ask ten other guys and you'll get 10 different answers.
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Old 09-08-2013, 11:38 PM   #35
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I would say yes.

You ask ten other guys and you'll get 10 different answers.
Well thank you very much for your opinion.
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Old 09-08-2013, 11:45 PM   #36
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Well thank you very much for your opinion.
What system did you go with? Trunk mount?
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Old 09-08-2013, 11:53 PM   #37
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What system did you go with? Trunk mount?
AIS trunk mount stage 1
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Old 09-09-2013, 12:45 AM   #38
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Dual nozzle Alky Control kit running 100% meth and nothing else. Makes great power and dropped iat's to 26* at its coolest.
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Old 09-09-2013, 01:28 AM   #39
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Meth itself will actually cool better than water. Evaporation is what pulls the heat away from something. Meth will evaporate faster than water, therefore cool faster and to a lower temp. You ever touch meth or alcohol.....cool to the touch because it evaporating. The advantage of water isn't so much cooling the IATs as it is knock resistance because water doesn't ignite/detonate. So it will increase knock resistance. Many in the racing world go either or. Straight meth won't have the knock resistance of water but water ofcourse puts out fires. Soooo with water you'll usually need more timing, leaner condition, and tighter gap on your spark plugs all to make sure the car performs optimally. But back to the temp thing, I saw Detoxx dyno with 26░ IAT on an 80░ day with straight meth, so it definitely cools. Oh and of course 50/50 isn't flammable a definite advantage to something being kept in a plastic container in a road car.
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Old 09-09-2013, 07:12 AM   #40
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Like I said..... 10 different opinions.

Neither are 100% wrong nor right.

If you trust your tuner, and you should, go with his reccomendation. It'll be more sound than a bunch of keyboard mechanics. I don't think any of us have a phd in chemistry.
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Old 09-09-2013, 07:53 AM   #41
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I read every internet article i could find and still couldnt come up with a definitive answer so i went 75/25 meth/water.
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Old 09-09-2013, 08:26 AM   #42
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Jamie...I understand you have a lot of experience...but I know meth kits pretty darn well, and julio is right...100% meth is what you want. M1 to be specific, uncut. It will allow for more consistant tuning, nice cool burn, plus added fuel. Folks cut it 50/50 cheaping out, making it harder on themselves, or so they can run washer fluid...lol...pick one.
I ran A LOT through my GN with one of Julio's kits. I was running 30psi on 93 octane with it.

One of THE best places to read about meth and tuning with it is www.turbobuick.com. Julio is a moderator on the alky section of the forum. At least read tuning archives for AFR and what not.
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Old 09-09-2013, 10:15 AM   #43
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Jamie...I understand you have a lot of experience...but I know meth kits pretty darn well, and julio is right...100% meth is what you want. M1 to be specific, uncut. It will allow for more consistant tuning, nice cool burn, plus added fuel. Folks cut it 50/50 cheaping out, making it harder on themselves, or so they can run washer fluid...lol...pick one.
I ran A LOT through my GN with one of Julio's kits. I was running 30psi on 93 octane with it.

One of THE best places to read about meth and tuning with it is www.turbobuick.com. Julio is a moderator on the alky section of the forum. At least read tuning archives for AFR and what not.

We have an Alky control kit on our GN with dual nozzles before the tb. I know Julio well. He does like 100% meth but that doesn't mean he's right.... Or wrong.

Different stroke for different folks is ultimately the bottom line.
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Old 09-09-2013, 10:18 AM   #44
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Someone has to have real time info of 100% meth vs a 50/50 mix. At least then we will see proven results.


All we are doing now is saying well I know Fred who sells meth kits and he said this is the best or John said this is the way to do it. It's never ending.
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Old 09-09-2013, 11:04 AM   #45
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I've seen back to back testing on a turbo buick...not on a LS motor though. But yeah...both ways won't hurt...neither way is wrong...but one is better .
And I also would suggest taking this into count...what brand is your methanol injection kit? Alky control=100%meth. Some of the others do not. The pumps don't have the proper viton seals and will dry out. Julio mods the pumps with the proper seals. I have a friend with a Syclone that always added a bit of lubricant to his Snow kit. That's the only two kits I have had my hands on.
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Old 09-09-2013, 11:06 AM   #46
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I've seen back to back testing on a turbo buick...not on a LS motor though. But yeah...both ways won't hurt...neither way is wrong...but one is better .
I would think the results would be the same no matter what combustion application it's used on.

It's works. No doubt about that. To Buick guys its the holy grail.
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Old 09-09-2013, 11:12 AM   #47
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I've seen back to back testing on a turbo buick...not on a LS motor though. But yeah...both ways won't hurt...neither way is wrong...but one is better .
I would think the results would be the same no matter what combustion application it's used on.

It's works. No doubt about that. To Buick guys its the holy grail.
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Old 09-09-2013, 11:28 AM   #48
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You will even get different feedback on different car platforms! When I drove an EVO they were all about 50/50. Switched over to the Vette and it was 100%. I'm guessing since it's the same motor most will say 100% here as well. I know my last tuner (Shawn at lethal racing) had me running 100% in my Vette, and will again in the SS. One plus side to 100% is there is no mixing. Just pour and go! I'd follow the advice given here and use what your tuner says. That's what they like to tune with for a reason.
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Old 09-09-2013, 11:33 AM   #49
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Ok, with a 50/50 mix how would one get that? -20 windshield washer fluid is 30% meth ..

M1 and distilled.. Now, I just have to find M1, hmmmm
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Old 09-09-2013, 11:47 AM   #50
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No-brainer. Listen to the guy with 9.80 @ 139.73 in his signature. How can you argue with #7 on the fast list?
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