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Old 01-17-2014, 01:34 AM   #426
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Yeah I doubt a multi-billion dollar car company lets an engineer who knows the tech of the car drive the car...

...I am sure they have professional drivers whose job is ONLY to drive
Did you watch that video of the Nurburgring time? You don't think it takes a lot of skill to drive at 160 mph on a wet track with tires that are DRY track tires??
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Old 01-17-2014, 07:39 AM   #427
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Did you watch that video of the Nurburgring time? You don't think it takes a lot of skill to drive at 160 mph on a wet track with tires that are DRY track tires??
i believe you are being sarcastic and agreeing with me? lol
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Old 01-17-2014, 08:25 AM   #428
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instead of hiring a pro dirver, it's always this GM engineer wannabe race car driver doing the laps for weeks on end.
What makes you think engineers can't make good test/race drivers? Ever hear of Mark Donohue? Or closer to bowtie home, Mark Stielow?


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Old 01-17-2014, 03:09 PM   #429
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I can throw you another name too.

Mark Dickens. He knows how to drive, has a race car, and is one of the engineers.
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Old 01-17-2014, 07:59 PM   #430
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What makes you think engineers can't make good test/race drivers? Ever hear of Mark Donohue? Or closer to bowtie home, Mark Stielow?


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Yeah but I would imagine the percentage is really low.

And many probably think they can drive because they made the car etc. (Ego)
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Old 01-17-2014, 08:35 PM   #431
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Yeah but I would imagine the percentage is really low.
Why would you think that? Engineers by nature tend to look for better, workable solutions to problems . . . kind of what you do when you're developing a race car, or a production performance car for that matter. Far more "hands on" than pure scientific research in some laboratory.


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And many probably think they can drive because they made the car etc. (Ego)
I suspect you don't understand how engineers think. Most people who aren't engineers themselves don't. Most drag racers don't, either, which I can tell you from direct experience. It's . . . well, different. Much less emotional, for starters.

You're in luck here. Today I stumbled across something very applicable here in my alumni magazine. "It takes a technical mind to understand it" (4th column, under the left front tire), but you'll also note that he's not just another field-filler.


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Old 01-18-2014, 09:53 PM   #432
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You have to think of it like this...

How many people in the world work on computers daily (engineers) but how many are hackers? (drivers)
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Old 01-18-2014, 10:19 PM   #433
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There are two types of GREAT drivers. There are drivers that run by the computer built into their derriere and do what they do by some type of magic. There are cyborgs that look human, but drive by calculation revised in milliseconds with absurd consistency making them hard to beat lap after lap . The rest of us fall somewhere in between.

The GM Performance culture has attracted and or created a number of excellent drivers / engineers or is that engineers / drivers? I consider it a privilege to call some of them friends. The track at the Milford Proving Grounds get a lot of use. They data-log every lap. You can't had behind your ego with lap times. You are faster than everyone else in the same car or you are not.

Where does ego come in with the GM engineer drivers? When you ask them who is the fastest GM employed driver on the track at Milford. They all want to say "ME!", but they say "that is hard to say. Different guys get in different programs..." It is the same politically correct corporate response, but their eyes tell a different story screaming ME ME ME ME. Everyone has an ego. Not everyone with an ego is an engineer or driver or both.

Adam drove the Z/28 because it was his job and he is damn good at it. Adam is a private person. He does his best work behind a keyboard and steering wheel, without any media attention and likes it that way.
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Old 01-18-2014, 10:23 PM   #434
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There are two types of GREAT drivers. There are drivers that run by the computer built into their derriere and do what they do by some type of magic. There are cyborgs that look human, but drive by calculation revised in milliseconds with absurd consistency making them hard to beat lap after lap . The rest of us fall somewhere in between.

The GM Performance culture has attracted and or created a number of excellent drivers / engineers or is that engineers / drivers? I consider it a privilege to call some of them friends. The track at the Milford Proving Grounds get a lot of use. They data-log every lap. You can't had behind your ego with lap times. You are faster than everyone else in the same car or you are not.

Where does ego come in with the GM engineer drivers? When you ask them who is the fastest GM employed driver on the track at Milford. They all want to say "ME!", but they say "that is hard to say. Different guys get in different programs..." It is the same politically correct corporate response, but their eyes tell a different story screaming ME ME ME ME. Everyone has an ego. Not everyone with an ego is an engineer or driver or both.

Adam drove the Z/28 because it was his job and he is damn good at it. Adam is a private person. He does his best work behind a keyboard and steering wheel, without any media attention and likes it that way.
Good to hear from ya Pete!
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Old 01-18-2014, 11:22 PM   #435
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Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
There are two types of GREAT drivers. There are drivers that run by the computer built into their derriere and do what they do by some type of magic. There are cyborgs that look human, but drive by calculation revised in milliseconds with absurd consistency making them hard to beat lap after lap . The rest of us fall somewhere in between.

The GM Performance culture has attracted and or created a number of excellent drivers / engineers or is that engineers / drivers? I consider it a privilege to call some of them friends. The track at the Milford Proving Grounds get a lot of use. They data-log every lap. You can't had behind your ego with lap times. You are faster than everyone else in the same car or you are not.

Where does ego come in with the GM engineer drivers? When you ask them who is the fastest GM employed driver on the track at Milford. They all want to say "ME!", but they say "that is hard to say. Different guys get in different programs..." It is the same politically correct corporate response, but their eyes tell a different story screaming ME ME ME ME. Everyone has an ego. Not everyone with an ego is an engineer or driver or both.

Adam drove the Z/28 because it was his job and he is damn good at it. Adam is a private person. He does his best work behind a keyboard and steering wheel, without any media attention and likes it that way.
Damn I have missed these informed postings!! Thanks brother.

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Old 01-19-2014, 08:12 AM   #436
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Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
There are two types of GREAT drivers. There are drivers that run by the computer built into their derriere and do what they do by some type of magic. There are cyborgs that look human, but drive by calculation revised in milliseconds with absurd consistency making them hard to beat lap after lap . The rest of us fall somewhere in between.

The GM Performance culture has attracted and or created a number of excellent drivers / engineers or is that engineers / drivers? I consider it a privilege to call some of them friends. The track at the Milford Proving Grounds get a lot of use. They data-log every lap. You can't had behind your ego with lap times. You are faster than everyone else in the same car or you are not.

Where does ego come in with the GM engineer drivers? When you ask them who is the fastest GM employed driver on the track at Milford. They all want to say "ME!", but they say "that is hard to say. Different guys get in different programs..." It is the same politically correct corporate response, but their eyes tell a different story screaming ME ME ME ME. Everyone has an ego. Not everyone with an ego is an engineer or driver or both.

Adam drove the Z/28 because it was his job and he is damn good at it. Adam is a private person. He does his best work behind a keyboard and steering wheel, without any media attention and likes it that way.


Well said Pete.
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Old 01-19-2014, 08:17 AM   #437
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Nice to see you back Pete...

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Old 01-19-2014, 09:11 AM   #438
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You have to think of it like this...

How many people in the world work on computers daily (engineers) but how many are hackers? (drivers)
More useful than that comparison would be whether the proportion of engineers as racers/test drivers/skilled track rats is higher than the ratio of engineers vs the general population. Given that engineering constitutes only a small proportion of college graduates, I suspect that racing/test driving/etc. tends to be a bit engineer-heavy.


Pete - good to see you back.


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Old 01-19-2014, 10:06 AM   #439
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There are two types of GREAT drivers. There are drivers that run by the computer built into their derriere and do what they do by some type of magic. There are cyborgs that look human, but drive by calculation revised in milliseconds with absurd consistency making them hard to beat lap after lap . The rest of us fall somewhere in between.

The GM Performance culture has attracted and or created a number of excellent drivers / engineers or is that engineers / drivers? I consider it a privilege to call some of them friends. The track at the Milford Proving Grounds get a lot of use. They data-log every lap. You can't had behind your ego with lap times. You are faster than everyone else in the same car or you are not.

Where does ego come in with the GM engineer drivers? When you ask them who is the fastest GM employed driver on the track at Milford. They all want to say "ME!", but they say "that is hard to say. Different guys get in different programs..." It is the same politically correct corporate response, but their eyes tell a different story screaming ME ME ME ME. Everyone has an ego. Not everyone with an ego is an engineer or driver or both.

Adam drove the Z/28 because it was his job and he is damn good at it. Adam is a private person. He does his best work behind a keyboard and steering wheel, without any media attention and likes it that way.
This describes what I meant or at least what I wanted to type lol
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Old 01-20-2014, 04:34 PM   #440
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Hate to burst your bubble, but the guys who drive the ring for GM are RACE CAR DRIVERS, some of them just happen to be engineers too.

hate to burst your bubble but I googled the guy who was driving the Z28 at the ring and he's done absolutely nothing of any relevance.

Have you ever watched NASCAR on road courses? Did you ever see those road course ringers dominate those tracks? Names like Ron Fellow, Boris Said, Scott Pruett, Tommy Kendall. Fellows is an ex Corvette GTR driver... have him drive. Do you really think this GM Engineer can hang with those type of guys?
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Old 01-20-2014, 05:04 PM   #441
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hate to burst your bubble but I googled the guy who was driving the Z28 at the ring and he's done absolutely nothing of any relevance.
Racing is different than fast laps. At the 2013 OPTIMA Invitational at Spring Mountain they had a race car driver who accomplished somethings of relevance set a benchmark lap. After the event this race car driver of relevance drove our Lingenfelter Camaro that was FTD on the road course. He was slower than our driver. Could he have put down a faster lap with more seat time. Absolutely. Would it have been much faster? I don't think so. Our driver didn't leave much on the table.

Professional drivers all have gifts that enable them to do what they do. Getting in the right car or getting a break to get into the right car is equal parts skill, hard work and luck. One amateur driver I know got his break with a very good TEAM. He called me after his first day on the job and told me he was faster in closed practice than the name drivers. He was pumped. I asked him if he should be playing corporate golf and hanging back just a bit, to not show up the names. Nope. This is racing. They want my best effort. A week later he was back to amateur racing. He'll never show up in a Google search as a relevant professional driver. Does that make him slower on track?

Back to the Ring. Is there a driver that might be faster in the Z/28? I'm sure there is, but that should not reflect on the effort of TEAM Camaro in the Z/28. No driver can be faster than the car the TEAM gave him. With the available RWHP there isn't much left in the Z/28 wet or dry time. Bump the RWHP to 600...
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Old 01-20-2014, 05:38 PM   #442
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hate to burst your bubble but I googled the guy who was driving the Z28 at the ring and he's done absolutely nothing of any relevance.

Have you ever watched NASCAR on road courses? Did you ever see those road course ringers dominate those tracks? Names like Ron Fellow, Boris Said, Scott Pruett, Tommy Kendall. Fellows is an ex Corvette GTR driver... have him drive. Do you really think this GM Engineer can hang with those type of guys?

I am not looking to get into a pissing contest with you. But you sure are looking to pick a fight with the forum, especially for someone who has all of 5 posts.

I work for GM, I know many of the drivers who work at Milford, drove the first Camaro's. I am not sure who drove at the ring. Honestly don't even care. If GM wanted to have a better time posted they would not have even drove at the time, since it was cold and raining.

Yes, I follow all those experts who drive for NASCAR. Yes, maybe one of them could be hired to drive at the ring, but they would also need to get some seat time at that track, maybe the person who did drive there already has lots of seat time at that track.

I will move on now and leave this thread for you to continue to post your expertise on what you think you know.
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Old 01-20-2014, 06:10 PM   #443
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hate to burst your bubble but I googled the guy who was driving the Z28 at the ring and he's done absolutely nothing of any relevance.

Have you ever watched NASCAR on road courses? Did you ever see those road course ringers dominate those tracks? Names like Ron Fellow, Boris Said, Scott Pruett, Tommy Kendall. Fellows is an ex Corvette GTR driver... have him drive. Do you really think this GM Engineer can hang with those type of guys?


Have you ever watched NASCAR on road courses? Did you ever see those road course ringers dominate those tracks? Names like Ron Fellow, Boris Said, Scott Pruett, Tommy Kendall. Fellows is an ex Corvette GTR driver... have him drive. Do you really think this GM Engineer can hang with those type of guys? [/QUOTE]


#1

He works for GM and gets free flights to Germany to drive a Z/28 at the Nurburgring. Then fly back home to a job that pays him a significant amount of money for his schooling and expertise. I would have to say that is pretty relevant.




#2

The road racers that you mention know those road courses as they have been racing on them for years. Let me ask you this question. Have you ever had the opportunity to walk around a track before an event to get every detail of a track? Can't walk the Nurburgring can you? Ron Fellows is too busy making money announcing the races now to drive! I watched him race in Long Beach a few times back when I followed Cadillac and owned a CTS-V.



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Old 01-20-2014, 06:44 PM   #444
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Maybe you guys should read up on the other cars at the Ring. Porsche just used 3 european drivers for their 918 Spyder. 2 were factory drivers with racing history and an ex-european rally champion.

And GM has an american engineer... with 0 race history.

You really think he can hang??? HE HAS ABSOLUTELY NO RACING HISTORY!! THAT SHOULD BOTHER YOU GUYS!!! Every other driver at the Ring is a Pro driver with championship titles.

The fact that a 2 year old Viper crushed the ZR1 time with almost no R&D should bother you! I have a feeling the ZR1 is a much better car... and in the hands of a true pro would have been much faster.
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Old 01-20-2014, 08:09 PM   #445
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Maybe you guys should read up on the other cars at the Ring. Porsche just used 3 european drivers for their 918 Spyder. 2 were factory drivers with racing history and an ex-european rally champion.

And GM has an american engineer... with 0 race history.

You really think he can hang??? HE HAS ABSOLUTELY NO RACING HISTORY!! THAT SHOULD BOTHER YOU GUYS!!! Every other driver at the Ring is a Pro driver with championship titles.

The fact that a 2 year old Viper crushed the ZR1 time with almost no R&D should bother you! I have a feeling the ZR1 is a much better car... and in the hands of a true pro would have been much faster.
Doesn't bother me....There's no doubt the German companies have drivers with more experience at the Ring....it's in Germany after all - but, GM doesn't put "nobodies" behind the wheel. It's dangerous, and not beneficial for their engineering purposes.

Have you heard of the Milford proving grounds? Where lies the Milford Road Course? The only thing I don't like about it is that it's closed to the public; being GM's testing facility. That road course is possibly the most complex course next to the Nurburgring in America. Perhaps VIR could be argued as similarly challenging.

My point is - just because the engineer/driver behind the wheel of the Z/28 doesn't have a race history, or a resumé of victories means literally...nothing. Time on the MRC should not be dismissed...

Let me remind you: the Nordschliefe runs are engineering exercises...the hot laps are to prove a point and thump chests, not to win any awards....2 seconds on a 13 mile track is.....one minor slip up through a corner...one delay to accelerate on a straight.

And I'm willing to bet that none of us here will EVER be able to beat these times, anyways; let alone attempt them in real life...so what should it mean to us if one driver earns 3-4 seconds a lap over another driver in the same car around Nurburgring? Should we spend hours calculating the environmental variables that could effect times, too?

Respectfully - I'm not worried about anything. And I think you're looking at all this from the wrong perspective...
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Old 01-20-2014, 08:15 PM   #446
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Okay okay bring it back now...

I did not want my opinion to start an argument come on guys we are Camaro owners we are better than this.
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Old 01-20-2014, 09:42 PM   #447
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Maybe you guys should read up on the other cars at the Ring. Porsche just used 3 european drivers for their 918 Spyder. 2 were factory drivers with racing history and an ex-european rally champion.

And GM has an american engineer... with 0 race history.

You really think he can hang??? HE HAS ABSOLUTELY NO RACING HISTORY!! THAT SHOULD BOTHER YOU GUYS!!! Every other driver at the Ring is a Pro driver with championship titles.
All that means is that the GM engineer has no verifiable history (that you found, anyway) of being able to manage other traffic to his advantage come the end of a race. That particular race skill means nothing in what is essentially a qualifying lap where everybody else plays nice and lets you put in that hero lap if it's in the cards that time.

Besides, what do you think a test driver does, day in and day out?



If you answered "gained seat time", you're beginning to get it. Better still if it crossed your mind that such seat time wasn't all done at or below legal highway speeds.


Quote:
The fact that a 2 year old Viper crushed the ZR1 time with almost no R&D should bother you! I have a feeling the ZR1 is a much better car... and in the hands of a true pro would have been much faster.
Do not let any image of higher technology - or even the reality of it - blind you to the possibility that somebody else's relatively crude, sledgehammer-ish approach might still be faster around a race track. Don't let one car's better fitness for most consumers cloud your judgment either. Besides, how do you know that the Viper had "almost no R&D"? Do you really think everybody involved intentionally forgot everything they ever learned from Vipers in racing?


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Old 01-20-2014, 10:13 PM   #448
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Another 15K for a Z/28 compared to my ZL1...Makes it difficult to believe since the ZL1 has so many more features and track times nearly the same. IMO
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Old 01-21-2014, 07:57 AM   #449
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The Z/28 is always going to fail in comparisons based on price to convenience feature content against any other Camaro trim - and with the possible exception of the Viper most likely against every other U.S. domestic car as well.

You have to want this car because it is a track-oriented car that refuses to conform to current expectations for street-driven cars. As a street driver, you'd need to look at it as having a rebellious nature that suits a few stubbornly independent-minded people (and you have to be one of those people to really get it). The sad part is that its pricing seems to be squeezing some of the people with that sort of mindset out of ownership.


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Old 01-21-2014, 03:02 PM   #450
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Another 15K for a Z/28 compared to my ZL1...Makes it difficult to believe since the ZL1 has so many more features and track times nearly the same. IMO

Track times are not nearly the same. When you consider (depending on track length) 3 - 10 seconds at an average of 80+ MPH.

The Camaros are apples and oranges. That's why they can build and sell both. 2 different customers.
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