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Old 01-21-2014, 02:10 PM   #451
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Another 15K for a Z/28 compared to my ZL1...Makes it difficult to believe since the ZL1 has so many more features and track times nearly the same. IMO
They weren't nearly the same. The ZL1 ran in ideal conditions while the Z/28 did not and it was still faster. Even GM said there is a lot of time that can be cut from the Z/28s lap.
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Old 01-21-2014, 02:41 PM   #452
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Track times are not nearly the same. When you consider (depending on track length) 3 - 10 seconds at an average of 80+ MPH.

The Camaros are apples and oranges. That's why they can build and sell both. 2 different customers.
I gotta agree the times are not nearly the same. But neither are the tires that both cars used for the tests. Mount r-comps on a ZL1 and we will have a vastly different result. How vastly? Well, unless such test gets run we may never know. But the lap times would most defo be much, much better. This is (primarily) why a ZR1 improved its Ring time by 7 seconds and a Z06 by a whopping 20. Even the Chief Eng speaks of it in the vids: tires, tires, tires...
And now, thanks to the Z/28 we are already able to order a ZL1 with Recaros and the Z/28 rim/tire set. That's not only near slick uber set of rubber and track focused seats, but also likely circa 100lb less weight all in all. Straight from a GM dealer. I think this will make BOTH cars super capable on any road course, their component differences notwithstanding.
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Old 01-21-2014, 03:51 PM   #453
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I gotta agree the times are not nearly the same. But neither are the tires that both cars used for the tests. Mount r-comps on a ZL1 and we will have a vastly different result. How vastly? Well, unless such test gets run we may never know. But the lap times would most defo be much, much better. This is (primarily) why a ZR1 improved its Ring time by 7 seconds and a Z06 by a whopping 20. Even the Chief Eng speaks of it in the vids: tires, tires, tires...
And now, thanks to the Z/28 we are already able to order a ZL1 with Recaros and the Z/28 rim/tire set. That's not only near slick uber set of rubber and track focused seats, but also likely circa 100lb less weight all in all. Straight from a GM dealer. I think this will make BOTH cars super capable on any road course, their component differences notwithstanding.
JusticePete covered the ZL1 with Z/28 wheels/tires and even he said that the gains would be short lived due to the extra weight and power of the ZL1. The ZL1 would wear out the tires much quicker and be finishing on hot, greasy tires that don't grip much.

That could be easily tested by magazines, though. They can get a ZL1 and run it with stock rubber and then with some r compound tires back to back to see what the gains are.
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Old 01-21-2014, 04:49 PM   #454
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JusticePete covered the ZL1 with Z/28 wheels/tires and even he said that the gains would be short lived due to the extra weight and power of the ZL1. The ZL1 would wear out the tires much quicker and be finishing on hot, greasy tires that don't grip much.

That could be easily tested by magazines, though. They can get a ZL1 and run it with stock rubber and then with some r compound tires back to back to see what the gains are.
I think if a competition was an enduro, neither car would fair well, as both are very heavy as track cars go.

The ZL1 with Recaros and lighter rims should be about 200lb heavier vs the Z/28, that's about 5%. Hence I don't believe tire wear would be much different. The same if we were to compare two lighter cars, say 3000lb vs 3150lb.

Also, the track comparos are claimed on a best lap basis, "time attack" style. Yeah, it would be great if someone ran such a test and showed us all how those cars compare on an equal footing (pun intended).
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Old 01-21-2014, 05:04 PM   #455
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While I agree these results would be interesting, I can't see GM providing equipment for such a comparison. Some mag would have to procure the ZL1 and tires during a time that they were reviewing a Z/28. Probably not likely that this will happen. I agree it would significantly decrease the gap on a hero lap test.
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Old 01-21-2014, 05:25 PM   #456
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While I agree these results would be interesting, I can't see GM providing equipment for such a comparison. Some mag would have to procure the ZL1 and tires during a time that they were reviewing a Z/28. Probably not likely that this will happen. I agree it would significantly decrease the gap on a hero lap test.
I agree: a chance of GM running such a test is likely NIL.
Yet this scenario may play itself out at our local tracks and, who knows, may lead to some surprised drivers.
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Old 01-21-2014, 06:10 PM   #457
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I agree: a chance of GM running such a test is likely NIL.
Yet this scenario may play itself out at our local tracks and, who knows, may lead to some surprised drivers.
You have to remember with higher cornering ability will lead to higher straight line speeds, at the end of those straights the higher speeds and added weight will put more stress on the ZL1 brakes. You not only need the tires but the brakes too. The ZL1 may be faster for a couple laps but after that the Z/28 is going to run away from it.
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Old 01-21-2014, 06:41 PM   #458
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You have to remember with higher cornering ability will lead to higher straight line speeds, at the end of those straights the higher speeds and added weight will put more stress on the ZL1 brakes. You not only need the tires but the brakes too. The ZL1 may be faster for a couple laps but after that the Z/28 is going to run away from it.
Agree: brakes are another important "consumable" that should be mentioned. I think ZL1 brakes are actually pretty good: the 2 piece Brembos have received stellar reviews from (independent) pros that tested the car in the past and they also got hammered by GM during their 24hr test. And yes, the ZL1 would work more at slowing for corner entries, because it is a faster car (even with street tires at Milford according to the chart). Given an average amateur track session lasts 25-30mins brakes should not be an issue IMO. But that's just my armchair opinion as I have not driven either.
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Old 01-21-2014, 07:29 PM   #459
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I gotta agree the times are not nearly the same. But neither are the tires that both cars used for the tests. Mount r-comps on a ZL1 and we will have a vastly different result. How vastly? Well, unless such test gets run we may never know. But the lap times would most defo be much, much better. This is (primarily) why a ZR1 improved its Ring time by 7 seconds and a Z06 by a whopping 20. Even the Chief Eng speaks of it in the vids: tires, tires, tires...
And now, thanks to the Z/28 we are already able to order a ZL1 with Recaros and the Z/28 rim/tire set. That's not only near slick uber set of rubber and track focused seats, but also likely circa 100lb less weight all in all. Straight from a GM dealer. I think this will make BOTH cars super capable on any road course, their component differences notwithstanding.
Deja Vu

You have already made these statements and I've already answered you...weeks ago.
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Old 01-21-2014, 07:33 PM   #460
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I think if a competition was an enduro, neither car would fair well, as both are very heavy as track cars go.

The ZL1 with Recaros and lighter rims should be about 200lb heavier vs the Z/28, that's about 5%. Hence I don't believe tire wear would be much different. The same if we were to compare two lighter cars, say 3000lb vs 3150lb.

Also, the track comparos are claimed on a best lap basis, "time attack" style. Yeah, it would be great if someone ran such a test and showed us all how those cars compare on an equal footing (pun intended).
You're wayyyyy of on the weight reduction from those few items. Probably closer to 30 lbs.
We'll see soon (Friday) how well the Z/28 fares on the track.
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Old 01-21-2014, 07:41 PM   #461
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It's really a very comedic argument. Why? Taking what is the same basic platform and taking what differences there are and making them closer to the same to see if they can be equalled...crazy!!!

Why not do it the easy way and put an LSA in the Z/28? That's where you're heading.

It ends up being nothing more than ridiculous and mind numbing.
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Old 01-21-2014, 08:05 PM   #462
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It's really a very comedic argument. Why? Taking what is the same basic platform and taking what differences there are and making them closer to the same to see if they can be equalled...crazy!!!

Why not do it the easy way and put an LSA in the Z/28? That's where you're heading.

It ends up being nothing more than ridiculous and mind numbing.
I think to be fair, we should allow the Z/28 to have engine mods that equal the price of the wheels and tires the ZL1 will receive. I think a cam, long tubes and tune should come close to the forged wheels and tires. That should make up for the power difference between the two.
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Old 01-21-2014, 08:10 PM   #463
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I think to be fair, we should allow the Z/28 to have engine mods that equal the price of the wheels and tires the ZL1 will receive. I think a cam, long tubes and tune should come close to the forged wheels and tires. That should make up for the power difference between the two.
I hear ya.
However in the end you buy what fills your wants, needs. If anyone wants to mod, start with the car that needs the fewest changes to make it what you want.
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Old 01-21-2014, 08:30 PM   #464
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I hear ya.
However in the end you buy what fills your wants, needs. If anyone wants to mod, start with the car that needs the fewest changes to make it what you want.
I mean in the context of this comparison. As much as people complain about the Z/28s tires, they conveniently ignore the 75 horsepower ~90 lb*ft torque advantage.

The ZL1 only gained ground in the long straight, where its horsepower made the difference. Give the Z/28 more power and the ZL1 would have no chance.
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Old 01-21-2014, 08:52 PM   #465
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I mean in the context of this comparison. As much as people complain about the Z/28s tires, they conveniently ignore the 75 horsepower ~90 lb*ft torque advantage.

The ZL1 only gained ground in the long straight, where its horsepower made the difference. Give the Z/28 more power and the ZL1 would have no chance.
I agree with your argument. But in my opinion it's a moot point.

Cars are like tools. How?, use the right one for the job. If you want to road race buy the car built for it. If you want more take that car and add to it (as you suggest). For those that can't see the Z/28 IS the better platform for road racing...Oh well you can lead a horse to water...
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Old 01-21-2014, 09:04 PM   #466
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I agree with your argument. But in my opinion it's a moot point.

Cars are like tools. How?, use the right one for the job. If you want to road race buy the car built for it. If you want more take that car and add to it (as you suggest). For those that can't see the Z/28 IS the better platform for road racing...Oh well you can lead a horse to water...

I agree 100%. I just find it ironic how they nitpick at the grip advantage but leave out a massive power advantage. Not to mention a suspension that probably handles the various surfaces of the Ring better as well.
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Old 01-21-2014, 09:05 PM   #467
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I think this discussion about the ZL1 plus tires is reasonable for a couple of reasons. I'm not advocating that it makes the two cars close to equal. I realize the differences between the two cars.

1.) The Z/28 is going to have limited production numbers and will be difficult to buy. It will not be obtainable by all that would purchase one. Price and dealer markup also factor into this point.

2.) Adding a set of sticky tires is a reasonably simple modification to make. People do it all the time for drag racing, why not for the weekend road course racer?

I spoke with one of the Camaro team member last summer about the 3 second per lap faster stat from the Milford Proving a Grounds course. This person said roughly 2 of those 3 seconds were from the difference in tires. No doubt the Z/28 is going to be the faster car, and the deeper into a session it goes the wider the gaps due to minimal fall off.

I think the point is that the ZL1 on a set of stickies would be a pretty stout combination, given how good it is on the Goodyears. It doesn't make it a Z/28 but it makes it a considerably faster ZL1.
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Old 01-21-2014, 09:16 PM   #468
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I think this discussion about the ZL1 plus tires is reasonable for a couple of reasons. I'm not advocating that it makes the two cars close to equal. I realize the differences between the two cars.

1.) The Z/28 is going to have limited production numbers and will be difficult to buy. It will not be obtainable by all that would purchase one. Price and dealer markup also factor into this point.

2.) Adding a set of sticky tires is a reasonably simple modification to make. People do it all the time for drag racing, why not for the weekend road course racer?

I spoke with one of the Camaro team member last summer about the 3 second per lap faster stat from the Milford Proving a Grounds course. This person said roughly 2 of those 3 seconds were from the difference in tires. No doubt the Z/28 is going to be the faster car, and the deeper into a session it goes the wider the gaps due to minimal fall off.

I think the point is that the ZL1 on a set of stickies would be a pretty stout combination, given how good it is on the Goodyears. It doesn't make it a Z/28 but it makes it a considerably faster ZL1.

That's understood. I agree with you due to lack of availability alternatives need to be sought. However there are some that are making a much different argument.

Personally I would prefer to build a 1LE towards a Z/28.
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Old 01-21-2014, 11:02 PM   #469
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Deja Vu

You have already made these statements and I've already answered you...weeks ago.
Perhaps, but not exactly

The reason is that it is no longer necessary to "mod" a ZL1. One can order one which may very well be as fast, or perhaps even faster (we don't know), right from a GM dealer.

So we have 2 buyers: one spends 75Gs believing they are buying the fastest Camaro ever. The other spends 55Gs plus Recaros and rims/rubber. Let's be generous and say 63Gs. Both guys are the same level drivers. Both guys meet at the same track. Z/28 does not "walk away" from the ZL1. Who knows, maybe it even ends up being "pushed" a bit. This is hypothetical of course, but it could be a real scenario given the cars were only 2.87 seconds apart at Milford. But it is equally "hypothetical" to say that one car is faster vs another but on different type tires! Most mass market buyers won't know the difference. But folks that consider themselves "track rats" would find such suggestion amusing, as most use track specific r-comp (or slick) tires no matter what tires a car comes with from a factory. And most go thru multiple sets of tires per season. Ditto brake components, fluids, etc. They view those as "consumables".

So when marketing a "track car" to track savvy folks, one should be rather careful how comparos are made. Unless of course the car is intended for collectors and "garage racers" who simply wish to enjoy it as a special purchase (which is totally cool BTW).

NB given short stints at DE type events and heavy weight of both cars to start with (3800lb is by no means a lightweight vs 4000lb) both cars would likely manifest the same tire wear. But what would defo make the biggest difference, is a driver's style. If one is aggressive and not sufficiently smooth with controls, you can burn a set of tires off a 3000lb car in a hurry just as well.
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Old 01-21-2014, 11:26 PM   #470
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I'm pretty sure GM has more invested in how well their new vettes will do on the Nurburgring. Z28 may be pretty impressive on the track but the vette is about 400 pounds lighter and much more aerodynamic. All I hope to see is the '15/'16 Z06/Z07 touch the GTR on the track and I'll be satisfied.
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Old 01-21-2014, 11:32 PM   #471
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I'm pretty sure GM has more invested in how well their new vettes will do on the Nurburgring. Z28 may be pretty impressive on the track but the vette is about 400 pounds lighter and much more aerodynamic. All I hope to see is the '15/'16 Z06/Z07 touch the GTR on the track and I'll be satisfied.
Ditto! That's the real "game" now
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Old 01-22-2014, 12:16 AM   #472
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You're wayyyyy of on the weight reduction from those few items. Probably closer to 30 lbs.
We'll see soon (Friday) how well the Z/28 fares on the track.
The weight of Z/28 rear seat has been reduced by over 40lb thru use of thinner foam (per GMauthority). So my assumption is:
30lb per each front seat, plus 10lb per wheel. That adds up to an estimated 100lb. If I am off (up or down) it shouldn't be by much.
What's up on Friday? Another track test? Any details?
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Old 01-22-2014, 06:58 AM   #473
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Perhaps, but not exactly

The reason is that it is no longer necessary to "mod" a ZL1. One can order one which may very well be as fast, or perhaps even faster (we don't know), right from a GM dealer.

So we have 2 buyers: one spends 75Gs believing they are buying the fastest Camaro ever. The other spends 55Gs plus Recaros and rims/rubber. Let's be generous and say 63Gs. Both guys are the same level drivers. Both guys meet at the same track. Z/28 does not "walk away" from the ZL1. Who knows, maybe it even ends up being "pushed" a bit. This is hypothetical of course, but it could be a real scenario given the cars were only 2.87 seconds apart at Milford. But it is equally "hypothetical" to say that one car is faster vs another but on different type tires! Most mass market buyers won't know the difference. But folks that consider themselves "track rats" would find such suggestion amusing, as most use track specific r-comp (or slick) tires no matter what tires a car comes with from a factory. And most go thru multiple sets of tires per season. Ditto brake components, fluids, etc. They view those as "consumables".

So when marketing a "track car" to track savvy folks, one should be rather careful how comparos are made. Unless of course the car is intended for collectors and "garage racers" who simply wish to enjoy it as a special purchase (which is totally cool BTW).

NB given short stints at DE type events and heavy weight of both cars to start with (3800lb is by no means a lightweight vs 4000lb) both cars would likely manifest the same tire wear. But what would defo make the biggest difference, is a driver's style. If one is aggressive and not sufficiently smooth with controls, you can burn a set of tires off a 3000lb car in a hurry just as well.
Shesus f'ing christ man! Give it a rest would you? Your fact twisting, speculative hypothetical BS spew is so f'ing tedious to read post after post after post. I have the experience, I know exactly what I am looking at and this isn't the first f'ing track car I am going to buy.

I know multiple buyers who are moving from much more expensive track cars because of the value the Z/28 provides. Don't come here and spew about who the buyers are and what they want because you don't have a clue what the f you are talking about.

Your constant, never-ending "warning" to some mythical buyer that exists in your mind only is so f'ing old.

This poster has to be a friggen Bot given its single-minded focus on trying to seed FUD (fear/uncertainty/doubt) in every GD post it makes.

Somewhere there is a forum better suited to your agenda than this one.
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Old 01-22-2014, 08:51 AM   #474
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Shesus f'ing christ man! Give it a rest would you? Your fact twisting, speculative hypothetical BS spew is so f'ing tedious to read post after post after post. I have the experience, I know exactly what I am looking at and this isn't the first f'ing track car I am going to buy.

I know multiple buyers who are moving from much more expensive track cars because of the value the Z/28 provides. Don't come here and spew about who the buyers are and what they want because you don't have a clue what the f you are talking about.

Your constant, never-ending "warning" to some mythical buyer that exists in your mind only is so f'ing old.

This poster has to be a friggen Bot given its single-minded focus on trying to seed FUD (fear/uncertainty/doubt) in every GD post it makes.

Somewhere there is a forum better suited to your agenda than this one.
Thanks for that Since when presenting a different POV is seeding FUD? Do we live in PRC? But you're right, it is clear that this is not the right forum to debate the subject of a track car (except for 2 other folks that seem knowledgeable and objective). Enjoy your new car - it is certainly a very nice piece of expensive machinery - no doubt about it.
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Old 01-22-2014, 09:10 AM   #475
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I mean in the context of this comparison. As much as people complain about the Z/28s tires, they conveniently ignore the 75 horsepower ~90 lb*ft torque advantage.

The ZL1 only gained ground in the long straight, where its horsepower made the difference. Give the Z/28 more power and the ZL1 would have no chance.
Agree! But you can't buy a z/28 with more power, yet you can buy a ZL1 with Z/28 rim/tires from GM. So it would be even faster in the straights and possibly as fast in the corners. So the lap time could very well be faster. At least in theory (as that's all we have to debate).
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