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Camaro Z/28 Forum - Z/28 Specific Topics Discussions related to the 5th gen Camaro Z/28 model

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Old 01-22-2014, 09:18 AM   #476
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It's really a very comedic argument. Why? Taking what is the same basic platform and taking what differences there are and making them closer to the same to see if they can be equalled...crazy!!!

Why not do it the easy way and put an LSA in the Z/28? That's where you're heading.

It ends up being nothing more than ridiculous and mind numbing.
Why is it ridicuous and mind numbing to compare 2 track cars on equal tires?
Since you've brought up the LSA: why doesn't Z/28 have more power? Either tricked LS7 or LSA? If it had, there would be no debate. And for those that think LSA type motor is unsuitable for track: what is it doing in the ultimate track car (Z06)?
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Old 01-22-2014, 09:55 AM   #477
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Any idea of when the team will be back at the ring for some more testing and timed runs? Production is in the early CTF stages I believe.
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Old 01-22-2014, 10:02 AM   #478
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Why is it ridicuous and mind numbing to compare 2 track cars on equal tires?
Since you've brought up the LSA: why doesn't Z/28 have more power? Either tricked LS7 or LSA? If it had, there would be no debate. And for those that think LSA type motor is unsuitable for track: what is it doing in the ultimate track car (Z06)?
It's there because of government regulations, not because supercharged engines are best for track cars.
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Old 01-22-2014, 10:27 AM   #479
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Agree! But you can't buy a z/28 with more power, yet you can buy a ZL1 with Z/28 rim/tires from GM. So it would be even faster in the straights and possibly as fast in the corners. So the lap time could very well be faster. At least in theory (as that's all we have to debate).
In other words, you want to be able to compare a ZL1 . . . against a mirror image of itself (albeit with a different badge)? What would be the point?


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And for those that think LSA type motor is unsuitable for track: what is it doing in the ultimate track car (Z06)?
An LSA-type motor is a less suitable 'fit' for the Z/28. Forced induction, particularly as applied to U.S. domestic cars is about most anything but road course use. If anything, it co-opts a handling/momentum sort of car toward being just another acceleration-based "point and shoot" car.

Time and user experience will tell how well forced induction works out in the Z06 - keeping in mind that extra mass up high and up front is not normally considered a step in the right direction for handling taken by itself. Somehow I doubt that the Z06 is getting special dispensation from the principles of physics.


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Old 01-22-2014, 10:28 AM   #480
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It's there because of government regulations, not because supercharged engines are best for track cars.
Good point! LT1 appears to be very economical and well suited to power gains in NA fashion (550HP with CAI, headers/pipes and tune). Next gen should see some nice motor choices.
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Old 01-22-2014, 10:42 AM   #481
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The 5th Gen is very sensitive to nose weight. NA was and is the correct choice.

What we have in the Z/28 is an incredibly competent vehicle with capabilities that exceed available RWHP.
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Old 01-22-2014, 11:06 AM   #482
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In other words, you want to be able to compare a ZL1 . . . against a mirror image of itself (albeit with a different badge)? What would be the point?



An LSA-type motor is a less suitable 'fit' for the Z/28. Forced induction, particularly as applied to U.S. domestic cars is about most anything but road course use. If anything, it co-opts a handling/momentum sort of car toward being just another acceleration-based "point and shoot" car.

Time and user experience will tell how well forced induction works out in the Z06 - keeping in mind that extra mass up high and up front is not normally considered a step in the right direction for handling taken by itself. Somehow I doubt that the Z06 is getting special dispensation from the principles of physics.


Norm
Stock Z/28 vs stock ZL1 with optional recaros and rims/r-comps. The only mirror image would be the shoes.

Agree on the FI vs NA debate. Yet records wise, FI cars have done very well at the Ring incl ZR1. Heck, I think the ZL1 Ring time was incredible given its weight and tires. Most amazing, the car looked incredibly poised throughout the run, with a driver needing almost no corrections. It almost looked "too relaxed" LOL! I think its 3rd gen MRC suspension provides for an amazing range of capabilities, inlc superb track handling. No surprise it made it into the C7. Having said that I am looking fwd to the Z/28 returning for a fair weather run, as the last min of its recorded run was rather horrific (anybody that says GM engineers " can't drive", pls watch this video!).

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Old 01-22-2014, 02:49 PM   #483
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Stock Z/28 vs stock ZL1 with optional recaros and rims/r-comps. The only mirror image would be the shoes.

Agree on the FI vs NA debate. Yet records wise, FI cars have done very well at the Ring incl ZR1. Heck, I think the ZL1 Ring time was incredible given its weight and tires. Most amazing, the car looked incredibly poised throughout the run, with a driver needing almost no corrections. It almost looked "too relaxed" LOL! I think its 3rd gen MRC suspension provides for an amazing range of capabilities, inlc superb track handling. No surprise it made it into the C7. Having said that I am looking fwd to the Z/28 returning for a fair weather run, as the last min of its recorded run was rather horrific (anybody that says GM engineers " can't drive", pls watch this video!).

No one is saying that F/I cars can't run fast times but that doesn't mean a supercharged engine is optimal for racing. Don't forget, the Z06/Z07 was only 3 or 4 seconds slower than the ZR1 despite being down 133 horsepower.

7:19.63 for the ZR1 and 7:22.68 for the Z06/Z07.
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Old 01-22-2014, 05:37 PM   #484
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In other words, you want to be able to compare a ZL1 . . . against a mirror image of itself (albeit with a different badge)? What would be the point?

Exactly.

An LSA-type motor is a less suitable 'fit' for the Z/28. Forced induction, particularly as applied to U.S. domestic cars is about most anything but road course use. If anything, it co-opts a handling/momentum sort of car toward being just another acceleration-based "point and shoot" car.

Exactly Again.

Time and user experience will tell how well forced induction works out in the Z06 - keeping in mind that extra mass up high and up front is not normally considered a step in the right direction for handling taken by itself. Somehow I doubt that the Z06 is getting special dispensation from the principles of physics.


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Thanks!
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Old 01-22-2014, 06:05 PM   #485
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The 5th Gen is very sensitive to nose weight. NA was and is the correct choice.

What we have in the Z/28 is an incredibly competent vehicle with capabilities that exceed available RWHP.
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Old 01-22-2014, 07:02 PM   #486
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Stock Z/28 vs stock ZL1 with optional recaros and rims/r-comps. The only mirror image would be the shoes.
Putting a set of R comps on the ZL1 does not set the cars up for a direct comparison to the Z/28. The Z/28 runs a square setup with 305/30/19s. The wheel and tire package lowers the Z/28 without changing the suspension geometry.

The Z/28 and ZL1 are very different cars from the weight to suspension to RWHP. The ZL1 is power dependent. The Z/28 is momentum dependent. The Z/28 brakes later, carries higher speed into the corners, mid-corner and exit speed. The Z/28 runs out of power on the straights. Drop a built LS7 into the Z/28 ad it will be amazing on the ring. I spoke with some GM people related to the project asking if they couldn't find a heads, cam and tune package in-house for the next run at the Ring...

You can add all the RWHP you want to either version of the Camaro Z. Anything over 630 at the rear wheels is unusable on a road course with a 305. The Z/28 is overbuilt for 505 at the crank. The weight, lower CG, brakes and aero on the Z/28 are a huge advantage to the Z/28. A pulley and tune get the ZL1 close to the ideal RWHP number, but weight, the location of the weight, and CG work against it.
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Old 01-22-2014, 07:39 PM   #487
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.....
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Old 01-22-2014, 10:58 PM   #488
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Old 01-22-2014, 11:35 PM   #489
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No one is saying that F/I cars can't run fast times but that doesn't mean a supercharged engine is optimal for racing. Don't forget, the Z06/Z07 was only 3 or 4 seconds slower than the ZR1 despite being down 133 horsepower.

7:19.63 for the ZR1 and 7:22.68 for the Z06/Z07.
Yep the z06 was incredibly fast (20 seconds faster then a previous run).
And that was a truly awesome accomplishment. ZR1 is about 200lb heavier, but more power and still top dog. But not by much.
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Old 01-22-2014, 11:41 PM   #490
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Putting a set of R comps on the ZL1 does not set the cars up for a direct comparison to the Z/28. The Z/28 runs a square setup with 305/30/19s. The wheel and tire package lowers the Z/28 without changing the suspension geometry.

The Z/28 and ZL1 are very different cars from the weight to suspension to RWHP. The ZL1 is power dependent. The Z/28 is momentum dependent. The Z/28 brakes later, carries higher speed into the corners, mid-corner and exit speed. The Z/28 runs out of power on the straights. Drop a built LS7 into the Z/28 ad it will be amazing on the ring. I spoke with some GM people related to the project asking if they couldn't find a heads, cam and tune package in-house for the next run at the Ring...

You can add all the RWHP you want to either version of the Camaro Z. Anything over 630 at the rear wheels is unusable on a road course with a 305. The Z/28 is overbuilt for 505 at the crank. The weight, lower CG, brakes and aero on the Z/28 are a huge advantage to the Z/28. A pulley and tune get the ZL1 close to the ideal RWHP number, but weight, the location of the weight, and CG work against it.
Didn't mean to imply both cars would be the same. Indeed they are very different animals. I just get an allergic reaction to folks saying one is faster by 3 seconds without taking tires into consideration. Kinda like "cheating" in my book anyway.
And I am exstatic with your mention of extra power for the Z28. Now we are talking! Get it close to 600, yet NA, and it will be worth every penny and nothing comparable will touch it. It is more difficult to drive a monentum car IMO. Takes a lot more skill from a driver. An average folk will be slow (without the extra power). Unless they switched from a Bimmer Good posts and very informative - thank you!
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Old 01-22-2014, 11:57 PM   #491
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Didn't mean to imply both cars would be the same. Indeed they are very different animals. I just get an allergic reaction to folks saying one is faster by 3 seconds without taking tires into consideration. Kinda like "cheating" in my book anyway.
And I am exstatic with your mention of extra power for the Z28. Now we are talking! Get it close to 600, yet NA, and it will be worth every penny and nothing comparable will touch it. It is more difficult to drive a monentum car IMO. Takes a lot more skill from a driver. An average folk will be slow (without the extra power). Unless they switched from a Bimmer Good posts and very informative - thank you!
Why is that cheating but it's not cheating to have a blower on the ZL1? The only "fair" fight is stock vs stock. Anything else is not fair.
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Old 01-23-2014, 12:37 AM   #492
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Why is that cheating but it's not cheating to have a blower on the ZL1? The only "fair" fight is stock vs stock. Anything else is not fair.
Ok allow me to change "cheating" to "disappointing" since both cars are Chevys and both cars are Camaros. And if by chance, the ZL1 would equal the Z/28 on a track, with track specific tires, I would be very disappointed if I paid a 50% premium over a ZL1. Don't forget this is a"track car" comparo. Kinda like saying one sprinter is faster then the other but the slower guy wore beach flip flops. Technically, a ZL1 comes with summer vs r-comp tires. Practically I can buy the same lighter wheels and tires from a GM dealer. And practically, I wouldn't be surprised at all, if they were an official option on the ZL1 come 2015 brochure. Especially IF more HP is added to the Z/28 (which I hope they do). And lastly, most folks that seriously track their cars do it on r-comps or slicks, not summer tires to be as fast as they can be. That is not to say, that some don't track their cars on street tires. But usually they are "uber" street tires and they do it for convenience, or cost reasons. Cheers.
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Old 01-23-2014, 07:46 AM   #493
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Stock Z/28 vs stock ZL1 with optional recaros and rims/r-comps. The only mirror image would be the shoes.
As soon as adding optional equipment is allowed, either the sky is the limit, each entrant is allowed to crib from the other's strengths, or the what-if comparison becomes biased.


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Agree on the FI vs NA debate. Yet records wise, FI cars have done very well at the Ring incl ZR1.
I'm not entirely surprised that FI does well at the 'Ring, not after discovering that the average maximum temperature at the 'Ring is closer to 70°F than 90°F.
Scroll midway down
http://www.myweather2.com/Motor-Raci...e-profile.aspx


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It is more difficult to drive a monentum car IMO. Takes a lot more skill from a driver. An average folk will be slow (without the extra power).
Isn't that part of the reward if/when you get it right?

I suppose it could be seen as disappointing that the car with the top track performance did not also have the most powerful engine. The flip side is that it doesn't need as much power to "beat" its big-power stablemate, and even though they share the same basic chassis it's still something of a comparison between a sports car with power vs a muscle car that handles. Competing on the sports car's turf.


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Old 01-23-2014, 10:25 AM   #494
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As soon as adding optional equipment is allowed, either the sky is the limit, each entrant is allowed to crib from the other's strengths, or the what-if comparison becomes biased.


I'm not entirely surprised that FI does well at the 'Ring, not after discovering that the average maximum temperature at the 'Ring is closer to 70°F than 90°F.
Scroll midway down
http://www.myweather2.com/Motor-Raci...e-profile.aspx



Isn't that part of the reward if/when you get it right?

I suppose it could be seen as disappointing that the car with the top track performance did not also have the most powerful engine. The flip side is that it doesn't need as much power to "beat" its big-power stablemate, and even though they share the same basic chassis it's still something of a comparison between a sports car with power vs a muscle car that handles. Competing on the sports car's turf.


Norm
No question FI car will do better with lower ambient temps. But the ZR1 sits at the top (or very close to it) for many tracks. Not just those in colder climates.

I understand your comment about the optional equipment, but a blower is not available for a Z/28, yet seats/tires are for ZL1. "Optional" still means "production" to me (vs modded as in afermarket). This point aside, let's say a person looked at the (second last) Z06 Ring time and instead bought a GT3 as a "faster car". Then got blown away by one with R-comps on, I bet a GT3 owner would be VERY disapponted. I bet some would go straight to a GM dealer and buy one not caring at all what tires it comes with from a factory - and rightly so. Was a 12 Z06 really that much faster as a ***car*** vs its 08 sister? No, except for the vastly better tires (and PTM). Even GM made a point of it. So does it invalidate it as a stock Corvette vs previous versions riding on street tires? Of course not. To me, "consumables" like tires, brake pads, etc are track specific items. Some folks swap them between street and track driving (for obviously good reasons). If one gets 5-10 track days out of Trofeos and then puts different rubber on, does it make their car "non production"? I don't think so, especially at a track.

To me, a Camaro as a momentum car sounds sad (and I must admit, a bit funny). When was "momentum" ever part of its pedegree? This aint no Bimmer.
A difference between 505 vs 560 in HP and 3800 vs 4000 doesn't make one car a sports car and another muscle car. A Corvette is a sports car. I think both cars share the Camaro muscle car pedigree equally well. Like they share the same body and looks, tremendous power, extremely capable suspensions, brakes, etc. Specific differences notwithstanding.

Being able to drive as a "momentum car" and as a result being able to carry more speed into corner entry and maintain it in mid corner phase (by far the hardest to master, right?) is what we all aspire to do - don't we? Of course different cars have different handling atributes even in F1 and no 2 drivers drive exactly the same. Good ones adopt to the car, but that takes plenty of skill and likely is not a target market of neither of the Camaros.

Here's hoping GM will stick a cam in the Z/28 and bump it to 600HP
This would be a good move given new competition is coming soon and lest we forget (or don't know): Multimatic had done lots of work for other brands, including the previous gen Stang.
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Old 01-23-2014, 10:45 AM   #495
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Grow up, the ZL1 is one car and the Z/28 a different car, you are tiring to compare apples and oranges, add tires to this car but not power the outer car, bring what you got and lets see how fast they go, O GM they did that and the Z/28 ran fast, in the rain, and the tires you want to add are not rain tires, if you want to add the same tires and rims the Z/28 has to the the ZL1 then if there 8K in price we get to add 8K in horse power mods, no and if or buts..


Then will see if your 580HP ZL1 that is nose heavy, will out run a NA 7000 rpm 427ci monster.


If any one remembers back in the day that JusticePete said GM had 2 cars that will be coming out, one was good and one was grate? well we now know what the grate car was, and its called Z/28.

Rant over
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Old 01-23-2014, 10:51 AM   #496
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Grow up, the ZL1 is one car and the Z/28 a different car, you are tiring to compare apples and oranges, add tires to this car but not power the outer car, bring what you got and lets see how fast they go, O GM they did that and the Z/28 ran fast, in the rain, and the tires you want to add are not rain tires, if you want to add the same tires and rims the Z/28 has to the the ZL1 then if there 8K in price we get to add 8K in horse power mods, no and if or buts..


Then will see if your 580HP ZL1 that is nose heavy, will out run a NA 7000 rpm 427ci monster.


If any one remembers back in the day that JusticePete said GM had 2 cars that will be coming out, one was good and one was grate? well we now know what the grate car was, and its called Z/28.

Rant over


So are you going to be able to get one Ofer?
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Old 01-23-2014, 11:02 AM   #497
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If you are comparing any two production cars you should only be comparing them as they come from the factory. Once you throw into the comparison, "If this car had ----- or this car had ----- the other car has", you are invalidating your comparison.
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Old 01-23-2014, 11:05 AM   #498
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Why are some of you seemingly reacting so heavily to the question of tires on an otherwise stock ZL1? I fail to see why such harsh reactions to this relatively simple suggestion of a comparison are being made. I have a ZL1 and have no issue of which is top dog, even with tires. It's a reasonable question for an enthusiast looking to purchase a track car from the Chevy stable to ask. I think this site gets bashed by being un-objective at times and this appears to be one of those times. I'm as Chevy loyal as they come (4 new Chevrolets that I own) and have had nothing but GM for the past 25 years. This question of putting stickier tires on a ZL1 is rationale one for somebody looking to purchase a trackable Camaro. I'm fairly certain exploration of this question will not discredit the Z/28 or hurt sales in any way.
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Old 01-23-2014, 11:23 AM   #499
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Why are some of you seemingly reacting so heavily to the question of tires on an otherwise stock ZL1? I fail to see why such harsh reactions to this relatively simple suggestion of a comparison are being made. I have a ZL1 and have no issue of which is top dog, even with tires. It's a reasonable question for an enthusiast looking to purchase a track car from the Chevy stable to ask. I think this site gets bashed by being un-objective at times and this appears to be one of those times. I'm as Chevy loyal as they come (4 new Chevrolets that I own) and have had nothing but GM for the past 25 years. This question of putting stickier tires on a ZL1 is rationale one for somebody looking to purchase a trackable Camaro. I'm fairly certain exploration of this question will not discredit the Z/28 or hurt sales in any way.

Why? Because ZL1 owners have been complaining that it isn't fair the Z/28 has better tires since the Z/28 was announced. If you want to improve the performance of your personal car, then that is fine but if you want the ZL1 to get the Z/28 tires in an attempt to beat a stock Z/28, then that is a whole different issue. You may not want to discredit the Z/28 but a lot of people came to this subforum posing the same question in an attempt to do so.
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Old 01-23-2014, 11:28 AM   #500
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Ok allow me to change "cheating" to "disappointing" since both cars are Chevys and both cars are Camaros. And if by chance, the ZL1 would equal the Z/28 on a track, with track specific tires, I would be very disappointed if I paid a 50% premium over a ZL1. Don't forget this is a"track car" comparo. Kinda like saying one sprinter is faster then the other but the slower guy wore beach flip flops. Technically, a ZL1 comes with summer vs r-comp tires. Practically I can buy the same lighter wheels and tires from a GM dealer. And practically, I wouldn't be surprised at all, if they were an official option on the ZL1 come 2015 brochure. Especially IF more HP is added to the Z/28 (which I hope they do). And lastly, most folks that seriously track their cars do it on r-comps or slicks, not summer tires to be as fast as they can be. That is not to say, that some don't track their cars on street tires. But usually they are "uber" street tires and they do it for convenience, or cost reasons. Cheers.
I'm disappointed that the Z/28 didn't come from the factory with 550 hp. Why not put heads and a cam on a Z/28 and then run it against a stock ZL1 at the Ring? I'm sure it would slaughter it. It's cheating the ZL1 has a blower and 80 horsepower over the Z/28.

I don't see GM offering the Z/28 wheels and tires on the ZL1. That would change the suspension geometry and would probably require the mag suspension being recalibrated. Not to mention the wheels would stick out of the wheel wells requiring the fender flares and the modified splitter, rocker panels and diffuser.
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