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Camaro Z/28 Forum - Z/28 Specific Topics Discussions related to the 5th gen Camaro Z/28 model

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Old 01-23-2014, 12:51 PM   #501
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To me, a Camaro as a momentum car sounds sad (and I must admit, a bit funny). When was "momentum" ever part of its pedegree?
Ever since the right people not only realized that "point and shoot" wasn't the only way to drive cars with seating for more than two . . . but that it wasn't necessarily even the best way?

Re-painting the performance image of ponycars (in general) from being all about power to something with a better balance among the various dynamic attributes has been a long time coming. But now that they have much better all-around performance, isn't it time to shed the preconceived notions that were accurate 35 to 50 years ago? These cars are playing on an international performance stage now, not just against the shadows of their previous generations.


At least some of the credit belongs to the wider interest in and availability of HPDE/PDX road course track time. Not just for the Z/28, although that is its stated mission. At the risk of ruffling the feathers of any drag racing enthusiasts who might be still following this thread, I'm going to suggest that many more people are outgrowing the stage where straight line acceleration is all that matters. We could blame BMW, Porsche, Mazda, Nissan, NASCAR at the Glen, or maybe even youtube for this, but in the end it really doesn't matter.


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A difference between 505 vs 560 in HP and 3800 vs 4000 doesn't make one car a sports car and another muscle car.
I was speaking in relative terms to highlight the difference in character. Certainly, neither car is a Miata (or taken to further extreme, a Caterham). Then again, neither car is a COPO wanna-be either.


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Being able to drive as a "momentum car" and as a result being able to carry more speed into corner entry and maintain it in mid corner phase (by far the hardest to master, right?) is what we all aspire to do - don't we?
Would you rather be trying to bully a 1st gen Camaro with a 396 into driving that way or working with today's 1LE or later-this-year's Z/28? Dance while on crutches or as a finalist on "Dancing With The Stars"?


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Old 01-23-2014, 01:00 PM   #502
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I'm disappointed that the Z/28 didn't come from the factory with 550 hp. Why not put heads and a cam on a Z/28 and then run it against a stock ZL1 at the Ring? I'm sure it would slaughter it. It's cheating the ZL1 has a blower and 80 horsepower over the Z/28.

I don't see GM offering the Z/28 wheels and tires on the ZL1. That would change the suspension geometry and would probably require the mag suspension being recalibrated. Not to mention the wheels would stick out of the wheel wells requiring the fender flares and the modified splitter, rocker panels and diffuser.
Folks put shorter rims/tires on these (and other) cars without having to recalibrate squat. If my memory serves me right, the Z/28 rims/tires drop the car by 7 or 8mm?
I don't think 305s would stick out. That's a stock size for the rears already.
Some folks even run a square 315 set ups for the track. I would hope they fit just fine.
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Old 01-23-2014, 01:05 PM   #503
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Folks put shorter rims/tires on these (and other) cars without having to recalibrate squat. If my memory serves me right, the Z/28 rims/tires drop the car by 7 or 8mm?
I don't think 305s would stick out. That's a stock size for the rears already.
Some folks even run a square 315 set ups for the track. I would hope they fit just fine.
People do all sorts of stuff without recalibration but GM has to do it and make sure it will last. The Z/28 was also designed to run 19" wheels. I'm sure that was taken into account when they set up the suspension.
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Old 01-23-2014, 01:11 PM   #504
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Ever since the right people not only realized that "point and shoot" wasn't the only way to drive cars with seating for more than two . . . but that it wasn't necessarily even the best way?

Re-painting the performance image of ponycars (in general) from being all about power to something with a better balance among the various dynamic attributes has been a long time coming. But now that they have much better all-around performance, isn't it time to shed the preconceived notions that were accurate 35 to 50 years ago? These cars are playing on an international performance stage now, not just against the shadows of their previous generations.


At least some of the credit belongs to the wider interest in and availability of HPDE/PDX road course track time. Not just for the Z/28, although that is its stated mission. At the risk of ruffling the feathers of any drag racing enthusiasts who might be still following this thread, I'm going to suggest that many more people are outgrowing the stage where straight line acceleration is all that matters. We could blame BMW, Porsche, Mazda, Nissan, NASCAR at the Glen, or maybe even youtube for this, but in the end it really doesn't matter.


I was speaking in relative terms to highlight the difference in character. Certainly, neither car is a Miata (or taken to further extreme, a Caterham). Then again, neither car is a COPO wanna-be either.


Would you rather be trying to bully a 1st gen Camaro with a 396 into driving that way or working with today's 1LE or later-this-year's Z/28? Dance while on crutches or as a finalist on "Dancing With The Stars"?


Norm
Norm, I really, really enjoy your thoughts OK, just the bottom line using your analogy: IMO both the Z/28 and the ZL1 would be the finalists of the "Dancing with The Stars". Their track times prove it to me regardless of the tire debate.
PS GM cars have been impressing an international scene for many many yrs, including some uber events like 24 Hrs of LeMans to name the top dog.
Ditto on the domestic scene against the best of the best. Agree that DE is gaining a large momentum especially with younger crowd all over iRacing and other sims. Cheers!
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Old 01-23-2014, 01:16 PM   #505
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People do all sorts of stuff without recalibration but GM has to do it and make sure it will last. The Z/28 was also designed to run 19" wheels. I'm sure that was taken into account when they set up the suspension.
Why would the tires matter in recalibrating the suspension anyway? The car sits on top of the springs and shocks, sprung weight. That is what the ECU is reading along with the speed sensors. Just lowering the CG will not affect the Mag ride. If you lower it excessively then you have an issue. I lowered my ZL1 and have had no recalibration issues.
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Old 01-23-2014, 01:18 PM   #506
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Grow up, the ZL1 is one car and the Z/28 a different car, you are tiring to compare apples and oranges, add tires to this car but not power the outer car, bring what you got and lets see how fast they go, O GM they did that and the Z/28 ran fast, in the rain, and the tires you want to add are not rain tires, if you want to add the same tires and rims the Z/28 has to the the ZL1 then if there 8K in price we get to add 8K in horse power mods, no and if or buts..


Then will see if your 580HP ZL1 that is nose heavy, will out run a NA 7000 rpm 427ci monster.


If any one remembers back in the day that JusticePete said GM had 2 cars that will be coming out, one was good and one was grate? well we now know what the grate car was, and its called Z/28.

Rant over
Agree: "bring what you got" from your local GM dealer! And no, you can't get more power there for either of the cars. And why should a car that already costs 50% more need any additional options? As to the "nose heavy" ZL1: its F/R axle weight distribution is: 51.8 to 48.2. What's Z/28's? If you know it pls post it as I can't find it. Thanks!
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Old 01-23-2014, 01:23 PM   #507
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Building the Z/28 with an LS7 AND significant changes to that engine would have made the now-$75,000 price point a REAL bargain. The nominal changes made to the Camaro-spec LS7 did NOT require as extensive a re-test/re-cert/re-validation as H&C/LTs would have...and getting GM to sign off on a 5/100 warranty for LTs would have been prohibitive.

NOT to mention further negative CAFE implications, already a factor in the limited number of Gen-5 Z/28s the world will get to enjoy...

Norm, your learned knowledge of vehicle dynamics, and their implications related to on-track performance, is always welcomed as a share, here...

Pete, your thorough understanding, particularly from an OEM-based "hoops 'n hurdles" standpoint, is our reward for good attendance, here, too.
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Old 01-23-2014, 01:27 PM   #508
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People do all sorts of stuff without recalibration but GM has to do it and make sure it will last. The Z/28 was also designed to run 19" wheels. I'm sure that was taken into account when they set up the suspension.
Suspension travel and forces are immense during hard cornering, hitting the curbs, braking and even accelerating, etc.
8mm difference is aboslutely inconsequential to "making sure it will last". Albeit it does lower the CG which is almost always better for performance.
But yes, ideally, we would all like the suspension to be calibrated just so. But in real world of track events it rarily happens. Not to this level of detail.
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Old 01-23-2014, 01:29 PM   #509
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Tires, and their ultimate gription, are important for all aspects of vehicle dynamics, ZL1-V. Ultimate cornering capabilities are factors for the StabiliTrak metrics, the T/C metrics, and the ABS metrics, before electronic intervention occurs.

More tire capabilities = more electronic leeway...
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Old 01-23-2014, 01:29 PM   #510
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Why would the tires matter in recalibrating the suspension anyway? The car sits on top of the springs and shocks, sprung weight. That is what the ECU is reading along with the speed sensors. Just lowering the CG will not affect the Mag ride. If you lower it excessively then you have an issue. I lowered my ZL1 and have had no recalibration issues.
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Suspension travel and forces are immense during hard cornering, hitting the curbs, braking and even accelerating, etc.
8mm difference is aboslutely inconsequential to "making sure it will last". Albeit it does lower the CG which is almost always better for performance.
But yes, ideally, we would all like the suspension to be calibrated just so. But in real world of track events it rarily happens. Not to this level of detail.

I don't mean that it has to be adjusted to function, but for the set up to be optimal, it would probably be best to adjust it for the different wheels and tires.
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Old 01-23-2014, 01:46 PM   #511
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The tires on the Z/28 are DOT legal and standard OEM issue on a number of very high performance cars, but technically are not R compounds. The new Z06 has similar tires in the Michelin Sport Comps.

The 305 fitment on the Z/28 drops the car just over an inch. The over all diameter is 2" shorter than the ZL1 stock fitment. You can get into the on board computer and change the tire sizes with a USB or Tech II. It can be done with tuning software too. That will correct the speedo. The ABS cal on the ZL1 is not as aggressive as the cal on the 1LE so there are some extreme braking situations that may arise i.e. ICE warning. Very few drivers will ever encounter that on track. It is at the very ragged edge of extreme braking.

The ZL1 is a highly engineered automobile and specifically engineered to run with the OE GYs. The tire and vehicle development were simultaneous. Changing the tires, specifically the tread composition and side wall construction is far from ideal. The MRC system is magic and will make some adjustments, but the sway bars and spring rates will not be optimal.

The Z/28 is no different. It is an engineered package and was design to be optimal with the wheels and tires that came from the factory. The damping, spring rates and bars are designed to take advantage of the Trofeos. If we switched either vehicle to slick, the spring rates, bars and damping would require revision to take full advantage of the added grip.

The key t the ZL1 and Z/28 is to admire what the factory engineers have put into turn-key vehicles with full warranties. If you want more performance from either one, be prepared to make adjustments in terms of a full package. In that respect, without adding any weight or making other changes to the package, the Z/28 would accept head cam and tune upgrades without any package changes because it is over built from the factory. Adding more power to the ZL1 for track use should be done only with a dry-sump system. Oil starvation is a well documented issue with all LS motors in high G applications.
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Old 01-23-2014, 01:50 PM   #512
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Originally Posted by ZL1-V View Post
Why would the tires matter in recalibrating the suspension anyway? The car sits on top of the springs and shocks, sprung weight. That is what the ECU is reading along with the speed sensors. Just lowering the CG will not affect the Mag ride. If you lower it excessively then you have an issue. I lowered my ZL1 and have had no recalibration issues.
There is a difference between needing recalibrations vs possibly benefitting from them. You don't need to replace regular shocks and struts at 20,000 miles, even though they've lost some damping in that amount of use.

If nothing else, your spring rates almost certainly increased and the wheels are now sitting at different points along their camber curves than they were at when your car's existing calibrations were finalized - even if you returned the cambers to the factory preferred settings. The implication here is that the damping requirements aren't quite the same as when your car was 100% OE. If nothing else, I'd expect the low speed rebound to be a little softer than it really ought to be.

Actually, it's even legitimately possible that you might like the ride quality now better than you did before.


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Old 01-23-2014, 01:54 PM   #513
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More tire capabilities = more electronic leeway...
If the electronics are programmed to give it to you . . .


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Old 01-23-2014, 01:56 PM   #514
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Agree: "bring what you got" from your local GM dealer! And no, you can't get more power there for either of the cars. And why should a car that already costs 50% more need any additional options? As to the "nose heavy" ZL1: its F/R axle weight distribution is: 51.8 to 48.2. What's Z/28's? If you know it pls post it as I can't find it. Thanks!
From GM's announcement release:

The Z/28’s unique exterior is designed like a race car to produce downforce that presses the tires against the track for greater grip – up to 1.08 g in cornering acceleration – and faster lap times. The aerodynamically optimized design helped the Camaro Z/28 log a lap on Germany’s legendary Nürburgring road course that was four seconds faster than the Camaro ZL1’s and beat published times for the Porsche 911 Carrera S and the Lamborghini Murcielago LP640.

Power comes from the 7.0L LS7 engine, with dry-sump oiling, rated at an SAE-certified 505 horsepower (376 kW) and 481 lb-ft of torque (652 Nm). The engine will be built by hand at the new Performance Build Center within GM’s Bowling Green assembly plant.

A close-ratio six-speed manual transmission is the only transmission offered and power is distributed to the rear wheels via a Torsen limited-slip differential featuring a helical gear set, rather than traditional clutch packs, for optimal traction. The differential works in unison with Chevrolet’s proprietary Performance Traction Management system, allowing drivers to adjust the level of throttle and braking intervention to match their capability and driving environment.

The Camaro Z/28 is also one of the first production cars fitted with race-proven, spool-valve dampers, which allow four-way damping control, enabling engineers to precisely tune both bump and rebound settings for high-speed and low-speed wheel motions. The wider tuning range also allows dramatically greater damper stiffness without a significant change in ride quality. Additional chassis changes include stiffer spring and bushing rates for improved cornering response.

Lightweight, 19-inch forged aluminum wheels and Pirelli PZero Trofeo R tires reduce unsprung weight by 49.6 pounds (22.5 kilograms) per car compared to the 20-inch wheels standard on Camaro SS and ZL1.

The massive 305/30ZR19 PZero Trofeo R tires represent the first production-car application in the industry and are believed to be the widest front tire on any production car. To fully exploit their grip, the Z/28 also features Brembo Carbon Ceramic Matrix™ rotors and fixed, monoblock calipers. The large 394 x 36 mm front rotors are paired with six-piston calipers, while the 390 x 32 mm rear rotors are paired four-piston calipers. Compared to similar-size, two-piece steel rotors, the lightweight carbon discs save 28 pounds (12.5 kg) per car.

The combination of tire grip and braking power enable the Camaro Z/28 to achieve at least 1.5 g in deceleration. With standard front brake cooling ducts, the Z/28 is also capable of continuous track use.


I can't put my finger on it, at the moment, but I believe the WD = almost exactly 50-50.

4120 (ZL1 Curb) X 51.8% = 2134. Delete the blower and plumbing (and MRC), add the dry-sump (and Multimatics), delete 14 lb (brakes) and 24.8 lb (wheels/tires) and I suspect the Front weight will be near-1900 lb...on a 3827 Curb.
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Old 01-23-2014, 01:58 PM   #515
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If it's programmed to give it to you . . .


Norm
...which WOULD be the case with the Z/28..."track-focused"...1.08g cornering capability, and near-1.5g "ultimate", as per testing...
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Old 01-23-2014, 01:59 PM   #516
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Why are some of you seemingly reacting so heavily to the question of tires on an otherwise stock ZL1? I fail to see why such harsh reactions to this relatively simple suggestion of a comparison are being made. I have a ZL1 and have no issue of which is top dog, even with tires. It's a reasonable question for an enthusiast looking to purchase a track car from the Chevy stable to ask. I think this site gets bashed by being un-objective at times and this appears to be one of those times. I'm as Chevy loyal as they come (4 new Chevrolets that I own) and have had nothing but GM for the past 25 years. This question of putting stickier tires on a ZL1 is rationale one for somebody looking to purchase a trackable Camaro. I'm fairly certain exploration of this question will not discredit the Z/28 or hurt sales in any way.
I'll agree with you. However this has been discussed over and over yet the poster continues to ask the same questions hence my previous deja vu comment. I believe there is an existing thread ZL1 vs Z/28 and that is where this discussion should be. http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=323245

Regarding a previous post on, when was the Z/28 ever a momentum car? 1Gen.
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Old 01-23-2014, 02:11 PM   #517
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The tires on the Z/28 are DOT legal and standard OEM issue on a number of very high performance cars, but technically are not R compounds. The new Z06 has similar tires in the Michelin Sport Comps.

The 305 fitment on the Z/28 drops the car just over an inch. The over all diameter is 2" shorter than the ZL1 stock fitment. You can get into the on board computer and change the tire sizes with a USB or Tech II. It can be done with tuning software too. That will correct the speedo. The ABS cal on the ZL1 is not as aggressive as the cal on the 1LE so there are some extreme braking situations that may arise i.e. ICE warning. Very few drivers will ever encounter that on track. It is at the very ragged edge or extreme braking.

The ZL1 is a highly engineered automobile and specifically engineered to run with the OE GYs. The tire and vehicle development were simultaneous. Changing the tires, specifically the tread composition and side wall construction is far from ideal. The MRC system is magic and will make some adjustments, but the sway bars and spring rates will not be optimal.

The Z/28 is no different. It is an engineered package and was design to be optimal with the wheels and tires that came from the factory. The damping, spring rates and bars are designed to take advantage of the Trofeos. If we switched either vehicle to slick, the spring rates, bars and damping would require revision to take full advantage of the added grip.

The key t the ZL1 and Z/28 is to admire what the factory engineers have put into turn-key vehicles with full warranties. If you want more performance from either one, be prepared to make adjustments in terms of a full package. In that respect, without adding any weight or making other changes to the package, the Z/28 would accept head cam and tune upgrades without any package changes because it is over built from the factory. Adding more power to the ZL1 for track use should be done only with a dry-sump system. Oil starvation is a well documented issue with all LS motors in high G applications.
Very well put (again). Trofeos and a large number of other like tires are indeed DOT legal R-comps intended for "competition" albeit legal to drive on public roads (not that anyone would wanna do it after a few track days when they become slicks).

I totally agree a car comes as a well thought out, designed and tested package. Yet ANY sports car's performance WILL increase on stickier tires notwithstanding all the other factors. So, to get a FULL advantage of such increase the car would need to be re-engineered again. But I will take a partial increase which likely averages 2-3 seconds per lap without the latter effort any time JUST for the price of the tires and alignment. As to the Z/28 power, yes, it can and should have more. If Lingenfelter can offer LS7 with 616HP for 6Gs RETAIL, GM should be able to do it even cheaper and better and with a longer warranty vs the tuner. I do hope it happens (within the existing price level).
Maybe a little "surprise" from Chevy, just like the unveiling of the car itself?
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Old 01-23-2014, 02:17 PM   #518
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If Lingenfelter can offer LS7 with 616HP for 6Gs RETAIL, GM should be able to do it even cheaper and better and with a longer warranty vs the tuner.
No one disputes the fact there's more available from the LS7. That is PRECISELY WHY it only has 505-net from GM WITH a 5/100 warranty.

ANY engine from ANY OEM can be enhanced...at a likely penalty to BOTH durability AND fuel economy, two things most aftermarket outfits don't have to concern themselves with.

And LPE's warranty is NOT 5/100... "With our commitment to producing quality products Lingenfelter includes our 3 year / 36,000 mile warranty standard on installed engine packages"
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Old 01-23-2014, 02:21 PM   #519
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I'll agree with you. However this has been discussed over and over yet the poster continues to ask the same questions hence my previous deja vu comment. I believe there is an existing thread ZL1 vs Z/28 and that is where this discussion should be. http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=323245

Regarding a previous post on, when was the Z/28 ever a momentum car? 1Gen.
I am done asking questions and am largely just replying to exiting posts, having some fun and learning a few things along the way. You?
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Old 01-23-2014, 02:30 PM   #520
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Lingenfelter can offer a 616 horsepower LS7 because CAFE and emissions regulations do not apply to them.
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Old 01-23-2014, 02:32 PM   #521
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Suspension travel and forces are immense during hard cornering, hitting the curbs, braking and even accelerating, etc.
8mm difference is aboslutely inconsequential to "making sure it will last". Albeit it does lower the CG which is almost always better for performance.
But yes, ideally, we would all like the suspension to be calibrated just so. But in real world of track events it rarily happens. Not to this level of detail.
Almost 40 lb/corner, sprung and unsprung weight savings, IS very consequential...


At the OEM level of detail, I think you'll find that Stielow et al have really "sweat the small stuff"...

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Old 01-23-2014, 02:38 PM   #522
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No one disputes the fact there's more available from the LS7. That is PRECISELY WHY it only has 505-net from GM WITH a 5/100 warranty.

ANY engine from ANY OEM can be enhanced...at a likely penalty to BOTH durability AND fuel economy, two things most aftermarket outfits don't have to concern themselves with.

And LPE's warranty is NOT 5/100... "With our commitment to producing quality products Lingenfelter includes our 3 year / 36,000 mile warranty standard on installed engine packages"
Yes fully agree. Yet if a tuner shop can offer 3/36 warranty, surely GM could do much better given they have had this engine for a loooong time and know it better than anyone else. My point was, offering it at 505 seems like an afterthought to me especially if all other components can easily handle much more . If this car was in dev for 2 yrs as some had suggested, more could have been done power wise within the price envelope. Just my opinion.
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Old 01-23-2014, 02:49 PM   #523
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Yes fully agree. Yet if a tuner shop can offer 3/36 warranty, surely GM could do much better given they have had this engine for a loooong time and know it better than anyone else. My point was, offering it at 505 seems like an afterthought to me especially if all other components can easily handle much more . If this car was in dev for 2 yrs as some had suggested, more could have been done power wise within the price envelope. Just my opinion.
You're unfortunately correct...it is YOUR opinion.

A) Have seat, and a CAFE!

Every time you add a horse, you have to feed it...whether it's a pony or a stallion, it has to be fed its oats...

Every time you make those horses run...HARD!...you have two results:

1) Even more hay is required

2) "The old gray mare, she ain't what she used to be..."

How much of LPE's charge for upgrade do you think they apportion for "be-backs" (warranty)? For 3 years or 36,000 miles? How much has each C6 Z06 cost GM for FIVE years and 100,000 miles-worth of coverage (I'm pretty sure GM has a number)?

B) DEVELOPMENT CO$T$...re-certify, re-validate, re-emissions-test, re-this, re-that...

You can ask, you can hope, you can wish, you can brow-beat (us AND them) BUT...ain't gonna happen...

BTW, a cam and open LTs and a proper tune will have you approaching 600. Which shop will YOU choose?
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Old 01-23-2014, 02:54 PM   #524
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Almost 40 lb/corner, unsprung weight savings, IS very consequential...


At the OEM level of detail, I think you'll find that Stielow et al have really "sweat the small stuff"...
Oh yeah absolutely: 40lb per corner of unsprung weight is huge! Remind me again what does it consist of? I thought wheels were about 10lb per corner and brakes less than that? Tires? Just curious.

My "inconsequential" comment was re lowering a ZL1 vis a vis its existing suspension.
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Old 01-23-2014, 03:01 PM   #525
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Regarding a previous post on, when was the Z/28 ever a momentum car?
Coming soon.

Although a fair argument might be made for the current 1LE or possibly the 1982 Z28 by virtue(?) of having decent handling but not nearly enough power to call it "muscle".


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