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Chevy Camaro vs... Comparison of Chevy Camaro versus its competition. *NO STREET RACING STORIES*

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Old 10-15-2013, 08:16 PM   #26
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Mustang wins. Get this on video, it should be good.
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Old 10-15-2013, 09:15 PM   #27
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everybody a comedian must be a hood thing
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Old 10-16-2013, 08:15 AM   #28
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I just want to know when 5.0 vs LS3 became a drivers race? Most of the latest 5.0 vs LS3 arguments on here were quite one sided with everyone agreeing that the 5.0 was quicker. Now it seems as if every thread includes some lame Youtube reference and stories of lopsided victories. Neither car has gotten significantly faster/slower in the last year so is it fair to say that the bullshit has just gotten thicker?

I've been quite the GMFanboy (45 of them) and my last car was a 2012 Camaro SS. But I still won't tell anyone my LS3 was quicker, faster or could launch better than my 2014 GT as it'd be a lie.
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Old 10-16-2013, 11:01 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Cody6.2 View Post
I just want to know when 5.0 vs LS3 became a drivers race? Most of the latest 5.0 vs LS3 arguments on here were quite one sided with everyone agreeing that the 5.0 was quicker. Now it seems as if every thread includes some lame Youtube reference and stories of lopsided victories. Neither car has gotten significantly faster/slower in the last year so is it fair to say that the bullshit has just gotten thicker?

I've been quite the GMFanboy (45 of them) and my last car was a 2012 Camaro SS. But I still won't tell anyone my LS3 was quicker, faster or could launch better than my 2014 GT as it'd be a lie.
We are comparing more than just the engines. The 1LE has different gearing (3.91) than the SS you had. That is part of what makes this more of a driver's race now. Enjoy your Mustang. They are nice cars.
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Old 10-16-2013, 12:03 PM   #30
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I thought the 1LE with its 3.91 gears overcame the deficit in a 1/4 drag race? Yeah it will still be a drivers race, but I wouldn't give the Mustang win automatically.
Not correct.

The 3.91 in the 1LE is offset by the different gearing in the TR6060. combined with a hard sidewall road race tire and the fact that it must shift into 4th to complete the 1/4 mile make the SS (non 1LE) better for drag racing. (stock vs stock)
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Old 10-16-2013, 01:50 PM   #31
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Not correct.

The 3.91 in the 1LE is offset by the different gearing in the TR6060. combined with a hard sidewall road race tire and the fact that it must shift into 4th to complete the 1/4 mile make the SS (non 1LE) better for drag racing. (stock vs stock)
Hmm.. good to know. What mph does 3rd top out on each?

Well looking at that Camaro vs Mustang video, the 1LE did a 12.7 sec & trapped at almost 112mph. That is better than most stock SS cars tested in the car rags.
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Old 10-16-2013, 02:32 PM   #32
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We gonna play this weekend and we both gonna have gopro to put this to rest if it dont rain
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Old 10-16-2013, 02:33 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by bluebeastsrt View Post
No. Do the math. The 3.91 in the TR6060 will still have a steeper final drive then the SS. Also the side wall is not nearly as important as the softer tire compound.
No....did the math and stand behind what I stated Look at first gear. The SS has a numerically larger gear (although very close) which will aid when launching. 60ft is very important to the E/T (More math fun: Every .1 reduction from the 60ft is worth -.2 on your ET). You also cannot discount the fact that the SS only requires 2 gears chnages to run the 1/4 and the 1LE requires 3....The 1LE will hit the limiter before the traps in 3rd gear and it is slower than when shifting into 4th...(I tried a couple times just to see) 12.991 was my best E/T stock with a bunch of 13.0s

Here you Go:

MM6 w/ 3.91 (Stock 1LE)
1st gear ratio: 2.66 10.40
2nd gear ratio: 1.78 6.96
3rd gear ratio: 1.30 5.09
4th gear ratio: 1.00 3.91
5th gear ratio: 0.74 2.90
6th gear ratio: 0.50 1.96

M10 w/ 3.45 (Stock SS)
1st gear ratio: 3.01 10.38
2nd gear ratio: 2.07 7.14
3rd gear ratio: 1.43 4.93
4th gear ratio: 1.00 3.45
5th gear ratio: 0.84 2.90
6th gear ratio: 0.57 1.97

Tires: Ha, I have driven both a stock SS and my stock 1LE.....The tires are VERY different. The stock SS 275 hook way better in the same conditions than the 285 Goodyear G2... The GY require a ton of heat before they work...

-Matt
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Old 10-16-2013, 03:28 PM   #34
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Oh boy! Ok so what's your point? Are you comparing the overdrives? Which gears do you spend the most time in when drag racing? If you guessed second & third you'd be correct. Soooo since you can't drive or figure out how to prep your tires for launch, tire compound has no bearing on traction what so ever??????Every hear of a burnout when visiting the dragstrip? Drag radials & slicks require alot of heat also. But they work so well because of their sticky rubber compound. Not their amount of sidewall.
I guess since you want to go personal I can play...

.....Says the guy that barely breaks 12s in a modded automatic SS when stock SS have been as deep as 12.7s...Talk about not being able to drive an AUTOMATIC!!!!

Yeah, I suck



12) CAMARO 1LE Bone Stock

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Wc&usp=sharing





13) Camaro 1LE Plus Bolt-On's

] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Xc&usp=sharing


Your move!
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Old 10-16-2013, 05:02 PM   #35
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You are basing your argument on a pool of 5 cars and comparing it to hundreds. Give me a week or two and you will rethink your points.
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Old 10-16-2013, 05:30 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by bluebeastsrt View Post
Bahahahaha ok lets compare timeslips, You got an AMAZING 2.1 sixty. What were you racing on a frozen lake? I got better sixtys than that out of a front drive SRT-4! You ran 12.89@110.25! I ran 12.89 @ 109.80. Sooo judging by trap speeds My modded L99 is making just a little less power than your car. Weird how I got down the track just as fast as you but when slower. Must have something to do with the whole sixty thing??? So my advice to you is work on your sixty. Learn to heat up your tires and dont be so overvelous on the throttle next time.Come back and talk to me once you figure out what your doing wrong coming out of the whole
Let me see if I can figure out your points.

Ha, yes a 2.1 is not good.....Ran a couple 2.0 on the tires but that is all she had that day on the track.

So you have a neon that apparently went faster? Yeah you! My PB is a 1.57 60ft in a street car ...John force I am not, but I have wheeled a car or two down the track.

You are telling me my bone stock LS3 is making more power than you L99 with header, CAI and tuned L99....That sucks for you, fire your tuner!

You are giving me drag racing advice very kind of you, consider you drive and auto. (yeah yeah you had a Skittle, building a 9 second Mustang blah blah whatever...)

FYI: Whole = complete, Hole = as in holeshot, coming out of the hole. ect

Seeing you are from Jersey and I am from Detroit this could go on forever......For the sake of others you can get in one more response and I will refrain from posting again. Must go learn to drive now....
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Old 10-16-2013, 05:33 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Novie LE View Post
You are basing your argument on a pool of 5 cars and comparing it to hundreds. Give me a week or two and you will rethink your points.
You are suppose to go this weekend...make it happen!
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Old 10-16-2013, 08:19 PM   #38
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You are basing your argument on a pool of 5 cars and comparing it to hundreds. Give me a week or two and you will rethink your points.
I'm with this guy!

There should be 2 more additional 1LE's up on that list by Sunday night. My long range weather forecast for Sunday looks like high of 55 and sunny!
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Old 10-17-2013, 05:42 AM   #39
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Well my track has some special shootout this weekend, so my trip will have to hold off till next. AutoX on saturday it is
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Old 10-17-2013, 06:44 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Dropspeed View Post
I guess since you want to go personal I can play...

.....Says the guy that barely breaks 12s in a modded automatic SS when stock SS have been as deep as 12.7s...Talk about not being able to drive an AUTOMATIC!!!!

Yeah, I suck



12) CAMARO 1LE Bone Stock

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Wc&usp=sharing





13) Camaro 1LE Plus Bolt-On's

] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Xc&usp=sharing


Your move!
Judging by this list the 1LE is no faster on the strip than the SS in fact it's slower. Also judging by this list of actual owners and not mag. times, the 1LE is going to have a hard time with any 5.0 at the strip. You folks know where the 1LE shines and the strip and street encounters are not it.
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Old 10-17-2013, 09:28 AM   #41
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Oh boy! Ok so what's your point?
There are significant differences in the speeds attainable in the various transmission gears between an SS 6-speed manual and the 1LE's.


Quote:
Are you comparing the overdrives?

Nobody is.


Quote:
Which gears do you spend the most time in when drag racing? If you guessed second & third you'd be correct.
Agreed. That puts you partway to the answer.


So let's concentrate on 3rd. The 1LE also has shorter tires, which run at about 750 rev/mile compared to the "regular" SS tires at about 730. You have to combine that effect with the 1LE having slightly shorter overall gearing in 3rd.


Bottom line, the 1LE only gets about 98 mph out of 3rd gear (at 6250 rpm). A MT SS gets all the way to about 110 at the same rev limit, and will be slowly pulling away from the 1LE during the last few mph. I hope you realize that during an upshift at 98 mph that the car will actually slow down slightly, although some (not all) of that speed loss is recovered if you don't lift while you are shifting.

Yes, I ran the speeds in gears numbers because it's really easy for me to show these kinds of comparisons. Tire tread compression has been considered, so the speeds in the attached chart differ slightly from what the online tire calculators come up with (which should consider this effect but don't).

Sidewall height definitely affects a tire's ability to withstand shock loading. More height = more flex = less likely to instantly snap loose in a full-blown case of wheelspin. Most road race cars do not ET as well as their trap speed suggests that they should, and this is part of the reason.


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Old 10-17-2013, 09:44 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by newmoon View Post
Judging by this list the 1LE is no faster on the strip than the SS in fact it's slower. Also judging by this list of actual owners and not mag. times, the 1LE is going to have a hard time with any 5.0 at the strip. You folks know where the 1LE shines and the strip and street encounters are not it.
Lots of SS cars will be faster than the 1LE due to running an automatic.

Getting a heavy stick car to run quick ain't all that easy.

Give it some time and the 1LE list will get better.
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Old 10-17-2013, 09:44 AM   #43
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Hi Norm,

Thank you for the detailed explanation.....One item to note in your chart, it looks like the axle ratio is incorrect for the M6/SS. It should be 3.45, I think the 3.27 is the auto?

-Matt
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Old 10-17-2013, 10:31 AM   #44
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Thanks.

Here it is with 3.45's in the SS.


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Old 10-17-2013, 09:41 PM   #45
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You know as well as I do there is more to drag racing then tire diameter per gear. You never mentioned anything about a dyno graph and where the LS3 will make it's power. The longer gear you mention in the SS just means it takes longer to get into the powerband of the engine. While the 1LE will spend more time in the meat of it's power curve. Now on to your side wall explanation. I'm going to ask you one simple question. If you were to buy a tire for drag racing. Would you concentrate more on the side wall or the compound of the tire? You also know as well as I do the compound is more important than sidewall. A drag slick is the most effective drag tire because it gives the best combo of grip via the sticky tire compound and the Krinkle effect of having alot of side wall. BUT alot of people choice a drag radial for the simple reason they can combine have the sticky compound tire for the track and still have a stiff enough tire to drive safely on the road. You can put a sixty series tire that will have a ton of sidewall on any car. But if it has a 350 tread wear rating your traction is going to suck simply because of the hard rubber compound.
I'm LOLing at the money you spent on the mods listed in youir signature to go almost as fast as a bone stock 5.0 mustang auto. just wondering what makes you such an expert on what a 1Le should or can do? oh and 12.70's in my Mustang with less than 500 miles on the odometer and no mods whatsoever.
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Old 10-17-2013, 11:45 PM   #46
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I'm LOLing at your 13.36 time you posted in your sig in your 2010 Camaro. By the way I ran those same times stock in this L99 with about 40 less wheel horse power than your LS3! Nice driving speed racer. What do you want a cookie because Ford built a better automatic transmission than Chevy???? YOUR THR MAN!!!! Happy now? But I dont recall anyone asking about your Mustang.
yeah, well i'll bet you didnt run that time bone stock in your L99 when it was 97 degrees out with 80 % humidity mr rockstar. oh and my faster than you mustang is sportin 74 less cubic inches than your L99.
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Old 10-17-2013, 11:55 PM   #47
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I'm LOLing at the money you spent on the mods listed in youir signature to go almost as fast as a bone stock 5.0 mustang auto. just wondering what makes you such an expert on what a 1Le should or can do? oh and 12.70's in my Mustang with less than 500 miles on the odometer and no mods whatsoever.
I will ask you again since you seem to have missed the question the first time you read my response. oh and all my life i have been a GM guy up until I bought a 2011 5.0 mustang, since then i have owned 3 mustang 5.0's and one was a track pack no options 2013 Mustang..so I am fully aware of what they can and can't do. what are you basing your argument off.. magazine articles.. youtube videos? just wondering
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Old 10-18-2013, 12:34 AM   #48
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Old 10-18-2013, 07:32 AM   #49
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You know as well as I do there is more to drag racing then tire diameter per gear. You never mentioned anything about a dyno graph and where the LS3 will make it's power. The longer gear you mention in the SS just means it takes longer to get into the powerband of the engine.
Because at the point where I entered the discussion it was only about the necessity of having to grab 4th in the 1LE. The only thing I was addressing was this point, together with a little information about what's going on during that extra upshift.

Trust me, I am much more familiar with the concept of a dyno torque graph and how to relate it to your car's acceleration at any given instant than you think. Care to take a guess how long?

Getting into the meat of the powerband is mostly a 1st gear matter, and overall the SS/MT and the 1LE have virtually identical 1st gear capabilities - there's only a 1 mph difference between the two all the way out to 7500 rpm. It's right there in the chart in Post #51.

The only wrinkle would be if there was such a huge space between adjacent gears in one transmission but not the other that you'd fall well below the peak torque rpm on upshift. This is not the case here - the average gear ratio spacing in the SS 6-speed is roughly 0.69 to 1 (it's in the charts). So if you're shifting at only 6400 rpm, the next gear would put the engine revs at about 4400 rpm, only 200 rpm below the advertised peak torque rpm. You'd be only a little shy of peak torque, and you would be in the flat part of the curve.


Quote:
While the 1LE will spend more time in the meat of it's power curve

Agreed. But it obviously isn't enough to overcome the disadvantages the 1LE has been demonstrating with respect to launch bite and the need for that extra upshift. Perhaps Ronnie Sox could make most of the upshift disadvantage go away if he was alive and still in his prime, but that's way out there in the land of "what-if".


Quote:
Now on to your side wall explanation. I'm going to ask you one simple question. If you were to buy a tire for drag racing. Would you concentrate more on the side wall or the compound of the tire?

Of course you'd pick compound first. I never said you shouldn't. But that's outside the situation here. We're comparing a stock-tired SS/MT against a stock-tired 1LE, and Chevy did not pick a DR or DR-compound tire for either one.


Quote:
You also know as well as I do the compound is more important than sidewall. A drag slick is the most effective drag tire because it gives the best combo of grip via the sticky tire compound and the Krinkle effect of having alot of side wall.
We are not talking about drag radials here, and certainly not comparing the case where DRs are on one car but not the other. Street tires with at least some performance intent tend to have grip closer to each other than to a drag radial, and when the difference between compounds is small, sidewall height can easily become the one determining factor.


Quote:
BUT alot of people choice a drag radial for the simple reason they can combine have the sticky compound tire for the track and still have a stiff enough tire to drive safely on the road. You can put a sixty series tire that will have a ton of sidewall on any car. But if it has a 350 tread wear rating your traction is going to suck simply because of the hard rubber compound.
Now you're just trying to distract or muddy the issue again. But FWIW, running DRs on the street is not the hot tip for at least two reasons, neither of which has anything to do with sidewall stiffness.


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Old 10-18-2013, 08:40 AM   #50
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Since this has turned into a mash up of gear ratios and such someone should do a chart for the 13/14 GT Track Pack. The MT-82 ratios alone are amazing and even more so with 3.73's behind it. Shifting into 4th in the 1LE during the 1/4 is nothing.
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