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Old 10-16-2013, 01:28 PM   #26
intensifi

 
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Originally Posted by stevey_frac View Post
So, my winters, I literally just bought from TireRack. They are 17" rims, and brand new good winter tires. All said, blew about $1300 on it. Really don't want to have to sell them at a loss after just 1 year.

So, I'd pretty much have to be swapping brakes for at least a couple of years.
Swapping the brakes requires effort as you'd have to bleed them each time. Unless you have a machine, bleeding takes two people. And you need to take the wheels off to safely bleed anyway. Each time your change calipers you need new bolts as well.

If it were me, I'd sell the winter wheels/tires and put that money towards all season tires for the stock rims (says the guy from California with no idea about snow daily driving).
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Old 10-16-2013, 02:21 PM   #27
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We all agree that a brake upgrade is in order with track quality brake fluid.

Brembo LCF 600
Motul RBF 600
Castrol SRF

I suggest you start out using the OEM SS brake pads. When your speed increase Cobalt Friction pads elevate the performance of SS calipers.

Suspension

1. There is a misconception floating around Camaro5 and the Camaro Community in general that the 1LE handling package works well on a 5th Gen with staggered wheels and tires. It does NOT work well with staggered wheels and tires. It was designed to work with a square tire setup.

2. In the media, they talk too much about the 1LE struts and springs. The Camaro TEAM did a wonderful job of tuning the 1LE damping and coils. Struts and coils are NOT why the 1LE handles so well. It is time to give credit where credit is due.

Why Does the 1LE Handle So Well?

#1 The semi-square wheel and tire setup changes the character of the 5th Gen Camaro. We have known that since 2009 when we were the first to go square on a 5th Gen Camaro with 305/30/19s. It is not a coincidence that the Z/28 that just lapped the Ring is on 305/30/19s.

#1A The Camaro TEAM has tweaked the rear sub-frame bushing on the 5th Gen several times. They made a general change in 2012, a ZL1 change in 2012 and a 1LE change in 2013. They have filled voids and used denser rubber. There is little sales sizzle to sell an improved rubber bushing tht you can't see. That doesn't mean it isn't a mission critical addition to the 1LE suspension. It is. While it is listed as #1A it could just as easily have been #1. With the semi-square wheels and tires along with the upgraded sway bars the 1LE sub-frame bushing OE upgrade was a necessary.

#2 The 1LE sway bars are 27mm front and 32mm rear. They are solid for maximum strength. If you drive a square tired 5th Gen with ZL1 bars 25mm front and 28mm rear it is very nuetral. It is too neutral. Take it into a turn at 9/10ths and it will start to rotate. Rotating is a good thing if you are a good driver. It is fast around a track. No OEM will sell a car that neutral. With the broad based use of ABS some driving skills are lost. Start to slide, lift off the gas, nail the brakes and let ABS fix it. In a car that understeers, lifting, slowing, braking and ABS makes things better. Lifting in a neutral car makes things worse as fast as you lift. You'll swap ends before you can get into the ABS. OEM sell cars that are safe for the masses and not dialed in for drivers. That is why the 1LE has a 27mm front bar. It induce a bit of understeer past 8/10ths. Put the 1LE bars on a staggered setup and you have understeer.

Back to the 1LE kit. The bars are the wrong ratio for your staggered wheel and tire setup and the kit does nopt include the 1LE sub-frame bushings. What is left are the 1LE struts and springs that are a welcome addition to most Camaros.

Justice Pete Recommendations

With the 2010 on Camaro you start with foundational bushings. That means we either use inserts for the sub-frame and radius bushes of replace them with full bushes. Until we have a Chevy rock solid sub-frame there will be a bit of rear end steer, rear end step out or what some call a loose rear end. Upgrading the bushing is a foundational requirement in my book on ALL 5th gen models. Unlike the sub-frame bushings which are different on some models, the radius bushings are the same. We wither replace the soft rubber OEM snubber or replace the entire radius bushing with our steel jacketed urethane bushing. This reduce dynamic caster change and you feel that with more on center steering.

With a solid foundation in place we move to sway bars. In general, sway bars are the final tuning elements after bushings, struts and springs. The introduction of the out board mounted rear bar with the ZL1 changed that for all 5th Gen owners. Install ZL1 25mm front and 28mm rear bars on anything but a ZL1 and you won't believe the difference. It is night and day. On the 1LE you either go smaller up front with the OEM 25mm bar or go big and bad with Pedders 32mm rear bar. On the ZL1, chuck those 25mm / 28mm bars for the bad boy bars. Pedders 27mm front and 32mm rear. You would have to be dead not to be thrilled with the difference.

The 1LE struts are the Best Buy out of the GM 5th Gen Camaro parts bin. Incredible value. Excellent performance. I like the 1LE front springs. The 1LE rear springs put too much rake in the car. A number of 1LE owners are running Pedders 220033 or 220035 rear coils with the front 1LE coils on track with excellent results. With you 6, you are better balanced than the 8s. Use the 220035s with the front 1LE coils and enjoy every minute of driving with fantastic ride quality and improved balance.

Add SS brakes to this and you will have a very capable Camaro.
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Old 10-16-2013, 02:50 PM   #28
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Swapping the brakes requires effort as you'd have to bleed them each time. Unless you have a machine, bleeding takes two people. And you need to take the wheels off to safely bleed anyway.

If it were me, I'd sell the winter wheels/tires and put that money towards all season tires for the stock rims (says the guy from California with no idea about snow daily driving).
Ya, All seasons aren't going to cut it. The weather here can get pretty dicey, fast. At least a few times a winter, I drive to work in 4-5" of snow, and my road doesn't get plowed often, or well. Plus my inlaws live in the country, and their driveway drifts over.

Going up to the SS brakes is going to require either swapping, or ditching these brand new winters, neither of which is particularly palatable.
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Old 10-16-2013, 04:28 PM   #29
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Pete,

To keep this brain dead simple for us knuckle draggers...

Assuming we (v6 owners) first upgrade our bushings to those from your Street1 or Daily Driver kits...

What are the valid/safe square setups for the V6?

# Tire Wheel width front offset rear offset sway bar reqs
1 275/45/20 9"
2 305/30/19 ?
... ... ...
... ... ...
... ... ...

Which would you favor for a street/hwy car? A street/hwy + track car?

After these foundational steps it sounds like each owner could then decide whether go to the 1LE upgrade kit or your Pace Car kit.

Am I missing anything?
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Old 10-16-2013, 05:12 PM   #30
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Wheels and Tires

Anything between 275/45/20 9" to 305/30/19 will work well. The 305/30/19 is my personal preference because it puts the most rubber under the front fender. the 305s lower the car 1" withOUT altering suspension geometry. That is a huge plus. Once you drive on the 305s, you won't want to drive on anything else.

When we build special project cars I work with Dave Schardt the owner of Forgeline. Dave has been nothing short of invaluable to us. In exchange for all the work Forgeline puts into our projects we forward all inquiries regarding offset back to them. After all, they did all the work so they deserve a chance to earn your business.

What comes after the Foundational Bushings?

Between the GM performance Parts and Pedders there are a lot of options and combinations.

Sway Bars - OE ZL1 25/28mm or Pedders Z Bars 27/32mm
Springs - 1LE Front and Pedders 220033 Rear
Damping 275s - 1LE Struts are a BEST BUY
Damping 305s - That is a lot of tire to control. higher spring rates and more aggressive damping are in order. Xa coilovers or Supercars.

Does this answer your question?


Quote:
Originally Posted by intensifi View Post
Pete,

To keep this brain dead simple for us knuckle draggers...

Assuming we (v6 owners) first upgrade our bushings to those from your Street1 or Daily Driver kits...

What are the valid/safe square setups for the V6?

# Tire Wheel width front offset rear offset sway bar reqs
1 275/45/20 9"
2 305/30/19 ?
... ... ...
... ... ...
... ... ...

Which would you favor for a street/hwy car? A street/hwy + track car?

After these foundational steps it sounds like each owner could then decide whether go to the 1LE upgrade kit or your Pace Car kit.

Am I missing anything?
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Old 10-16-2013, 05:59 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by JusticePete
Wheels & Tires
Anything between 275/45/20 9" to 305/30/19 will work well. The 305/30/19 is my personal preference because it puts the most rubber under the front fender. the 305s lower the car 1" with altering suspension geometry. That is a huge plus.
Did you mean to say "without" altering suspension geometry?

Thank you for pointing out that particular setup would lower the car. I guess we can go to Tirerack or equivalent to figure out which combos give the same outer diameter (speedo issues) and have the same or better speed/load ratings.

Does a "proper" square setup involve just 4 of the same tire size (staggered wheel size ok) or 4 of the same size tire and wheel (no stagger)? I know there are issues with Camaro wheels due to offset issues and that only certain combinations work (proper fender and brake clearance).

Quote:
Originally Posted by JusticePete
What comes after the Foundational Bushings?

Between the GM performance Parts and Pedders there are a lot of options and combinations.

Sway Bars - OE ZL1 25/28mm or Pedders Z Bars 27/32mm
Springs - 1LE Front and Pedders 220033 Rear
Damping 275s - 1LE Struts are a BEST BUY
Damping 305s - That is a lot of tire to control. higher spring rates and more aggressive damping are in order. Xa coilovers or Supercars.
Thank you for the menu.

I'd probably just go with the 1LE kit or your Pace Car package to keep things matched (and simple).

Quote:
Originally Posted by JusticePete
Does this answer your question?
Mostly. I'll call or PM when the time comes.
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Old 10-16-2013, 10:09 PM   #32
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So... I've found Brembo calipers for $600. Given that i'll be able to sell my V6 for at least a few hundred, that's not a bad deal.

After this winter I'll look at selling my winters, buying the brembo's, and selling my V6 brakes! (And then buying 19" winters next fall)

Once that's done I'll come back to Justice Pete for a good suspension setup to persue.
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Old 10-16-2013, 10:47 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by intensifi View Post
Did you mean to say "without" altering suspension geometry?

Thank you for pointing out that particular setup would lower the car. I guess we can go to Tirerack or equivalent to figure out which combos give the same outer diameter (speedo issues) and have the same or better speed/load ratings.

Does a "proper" square setup involve just 4 of the same tire size (staggered wheel size ok) or 4 of the same size tire and wheel (no stagger)? I know there are issues with Camaro wheels due to offset issues and that only certain combinations work (proper fender and brake clearance).



Thank you for the menu.

I'd probably just go with the 1LE kit or your Pace Car package to keep things matched (and simple).



Mostly. I'll call or PM when the time comes.
We'll be ready when you are ready.
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Old 10-16-2013, 10:52 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by stevey_frac View Post
So... I've found Brembo calipers for $600. Given that i'll be able to sell my V6 for at least a few hundred, that's not a bad deal.

After this winter I'll look at selling my winters, buying the brembo's, and selling my V6 brakes! (And then buying 19" winters next fall)

Once that's done I'll come back to Justice Pete for a good suspension setup to persue.
Please don't forget you'll need a little more than just the calipers. The rotors at least are needed. I'm not 100% sure if the SS lines are needed but I'd do them. You don't need the SS dust shields but just be prepared to cut yours
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Old 10-16-2013, 11:43 PM   #35
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Rotors and brake lines are relatively cheap, and rotors are consumable. I was originally looking at 1000 for calipers. I'll need pads as well.
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Old 10-17-2013, 03:00 AM   #36
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I have been told you must swap the fronts and rears as the brake system (ABS, etc.) is designed for a "balanced" set. I am also told you must have the same type of brakes lines on the front and rear (i.e. do not put stainless on the front and leave rubber on the back). While you are doing this, upgrade to DOT4 fluid for track use or steep hill driving.
I was able to swap just the fronts. It's a weird looking having big Brembos up front and small stock V6s on the rear. But it runs fine. Only issue is squeaking but from reading other threads it means my brake pads are doing their job.

Do brake lines make that much of a difference? I had the opportunity to get some stainless lines but didnt jump on it thinking it was just a wear/tear thing with rubber vs metal.
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Old 10-17-2013, 01:22 PM   #37
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I was able to swap just the fronts. It's a weird looking having big Brembos up front and small stock V6s on the rear. But it runs fine. Only issue is squeaking but from reading other threads it means my brake pads are doing their job.

Do brake lines make that much of a difference? I had the opportunity to get some stainless lines but didnt jump on it thinking it was just a wear/tear thing with rubber vs metal.
They definitely make a good difference in pedal feel and braking response. Although I'm not sure if the SS rear lines will work on your rear V6 calipers. You may just have to do the front for the time being and once you install rear Brembo calipers you can install the rear lines. Something to think about anyway..

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Old 10-19-2013, 06:11 PM   #38
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Let's assume that I have my SS brakes...

Am I better off getting a square setup for wheels? Can I just get an additional pair of rear stock wheel and bolt those onto the front with the same rubber, or does it have to be more nuanced than that? (Offsets and whatnot).

Or, will the car handle well enough with just suspension upgrades to make it not as worthwhile doing something so drastic? It seems like more rubber on the road is a good thing....
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Old 10-19-2013, 08:07 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by stevey_frac View Post
Let's assume that I have my SS brakes...

Am I better off getting a square setup for wheels? Can I just get an additional pair of rear stock wheel and bolt those onto the front with the same rubber, or does it have to be more nuanced than that? (Offsets and whatnot).

Or, will the car handle well enough with just suspension upgrades to make it not as worthwhile doing something so drastic? It seems like more rubber on the road is a good thing....
EP1201 Sub-Frame Bushings
EP6577 Radisu Bushings
Springs
  • 1LE Front
  • Pedders 220033 Rear
Damping with stock wheels and tires or 275s all round - 1LE Struts are a BEST BUY
Pedders Z Bars

If you follow this upgrade list you will be stunned at how well you Camaro handles. Stunned. Adding a square 275 or 305 set of wheels and tires are another layer of icing on an already delicious cake.
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Old 10-19-2013, 11:39 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
EP1201 Sub-Frame Bushings
EP6577 Radisu Bushings
Springs
  • 1LE Front
  • Pedders 220033 Rear
Damping with stock wheels and tires or 275s all round - 1LE Struts are a BEST BUY
Pedders Z Bars

If you follow this upgrade list you will be stunned at how well you Camaro handles. Stunned. Adding a square 275 or 305 set of wheels and tires are another layer of icing on an already delicious cake.
Sounds like I have a shopping list! Thanks!

Are you recommending this even without the square tire setup? But that it will also work WITH a square tire setup? There was discussion earlier in the thread that the 1LE suspension wouldn't work well without a square wheel setup.

Also: Can you clarify if the stock RS/SS wheels will fit on the front of my Camaro?

I know there's a lot of questions here... It matches all the things I don't know about all this!

Thanks!

--Steve
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Old 10-20-2013, 12:10 AM   #41
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Sounds like I have a shopping list! Thanks!

Are you recommending this even without the square tire setup? But that it will also work WITH a square tire setup? There was discussion earlier in the thread that the 1LE suspension wouldn't work well without a square wheel setup.

Also: Can you clarify if the stock RS/SS wheels will fit on the front of my Camaro?

I know there's a lot of questions here... It matches all the things I don't know about all this!

Thanks!

--Steve
Yes, any 5th Gen wheel will fit any 5th Gen including 1LE, ZL1 and Z/28.

The parts list we are working with are not a 1LE suspension. We are using 1LE struts front and rear with 1LE springs up front and the rest are Pedders. The parts in RED are Pedders. The parts in black are OE 1LE

EP1201 Sub-Frame Bushings
EP6577 Radius Bushings

Springs, 1LE Front
Springs Rear, Pedders 220033
OEM 1LE Struts are a BEST BUY
Pedders Z Bars

You would order front and rear 1LE struts and two front 1LE springs from a GM Dealer. The rest of the parts you would order from me. This parts grouping will work quite well with your stock tires. If you upgrade to square they will work better. Does this make things clear?
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Old 10-20-2013, 12:25 PM   #42
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Ok, so Justice Pete and I took some questions offline. Thanks man.

Here's the current plan then.

Come spring, find a set of used RS wheels. Take the rears from that set, put them up front, and then wrap everything in Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires from Rudy@Tirerack. (285/35ZR20)

I can then use the two pairs of fronts, wrap them in winter rubber, and use them in the winter! Can anyone comment on that?

Next step is to acquire the Brembo brakes / rotors/ pads / lines. I've seen used sets floating around fairly inexpensively.

After that, get the Pedders bushings (both subframe and radius) from Pete. That's a nice sized upgrade that's doable in one go.

Next, swap out the springs, struts, and install the Z bars... Pete, do you have a part number for the bars? There's a couple of different ones.

Pretty much once I get the brakes, I can start taking her to the track, and then get to truly enjoy the improved performance as things go!
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Old 10-20-2013, 03:08 PM   #43
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Sounds like a plan.

Will you need to recalibrate the speedo with those tires?
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Old 10-20-2013, 03:27 PM   #44
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Sounds like a plan.

Will you need to recalibrate the speedo with those tires?
It will be somewhat off, reading a bit faster than it was before. It's probably not a big deal. ABS and traction control will still work thanks to it being the same wheel tire combo all the way around. Being a .4" lower more or less 'for free' doesn't seem like a bad thing either.
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Old 10-20-2013, 05:14 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by intensifi View Post
Sounds like a plan.

Will you need to recalibrate the speedo with those tires?
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevey_frac View Post
It will be somewhat off, reading a bit faster than it was before. It's probably not a big deal. ABS and traction control will still work thanks to it being the same wheel tire combo all the way around. Being a .4" lower more or less 'for free' doesn't seem like a bad thing either.
Your Chevy Dealer can use the USB Scan or TECH II tool to change the tire sizes. A tuner can do it as well.
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Old 10-20-2013, 05:23 PM   #46
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I'm concerned about this as well, but as I mentioned earlier, the SS brakes are very pricey, and won't fit in my winter wheels.

Cooling ducts, race pads, and DOT 4 brake fluid will hopefully go a long way to reducing fade. I won't be racing at this point until the spring, so I have some time.
There's a guy in Calgary (I see you're in Canada) selling some Brembos off an SS for $375...pm and I can send you the info
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Old 10-20-2013, 06:10 PM   #47
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Ok, so Justice Pete and I took some questions offline. Thanks man.

Here's the current plan then.

Come spring, find a set of used RS wheels. Take the rears from that set, put them up front, and then wrap everything in Michelin Pilot Super Sport tires from Rudy@Tirerack. (285/35ZR20)

I can then use the two pairs of fronts, wrap them in winter rubber, and use them in the winter! Can anyone comment on that?

Next step is to acquire the Brembo brakes / rotors/ pads / lines. I've seen used sets floating around fairly inexpensively.

After that, get the Pedders bushings (both subframe and radius) from Pete. That's a nice sized upgrade that's doable in one go.

Next, swap out the springs, struts, and install the Z bars... Pete, do you have a part number for the bars? There's a couple of different ones.

Pretty much once I get the brakes, I can start taking her to the track, and then get to truly enjoy the improved performance as things go!
CAM3-SW-ZUPG-PKG
Front 27mm and Rear 32mm Sway Bars
Front OEM Quite Adjustable Endlinks
Rear Drop Links
OEM Lower Control Arms
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