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Old 10-17-2013, 09:38 AM   #51
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I think the problem most are having, well most Ford guys, is that the cars are not as close in spec as they were in the old days. In 1969 both had 302 engines, weighed nearly the same, and competed head to head on the racetrack.

Now the Camaro has a much larger engine, and is predicted to have a much higher price than it's rival. Also, the Boss is built and raced in the Continental Tire Series, in pretty much the same spec as the street car. The engine is the same, although a bit detuned for "competition parity". The Camaro in the series is closer to the 1LE, but with more lightweight parts. The new Z/28, while cool and closer to how I would have liked my Boss equipped, on paper it is in another league altogether.

I like the car, but I don't view it as a competitor to my car, and I would have chosen another car as the benchmark to beat. You know, like something currently in production.
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Old 10-17-2013, 01:52 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by LostPony View Post
I think the problem most are having, well most Ford guys, is that the cars are not as close in spec as they were in the old days. In 1969 both had 302 engines, weighed nearly the same, and competed head to head on the racetrack.

Now the Camaro has a much larger engine, and is predicted to have a much higher price than it's rival. Also, the Boss is built and raced in the Continental Tire Series, in pretty much the same spec as the street car. The engine is the same, although a bit detuned for "competition parity". The Camaro in the series is closer to the 1LE, but with more lightweight parts. The new Z/28, while cool and closer to how I would have liked my Boss equipped, on paper it is in another league altogether.

I like the car, but I don't view it as a competitor to my car, and I would have chosen another car as the benchmark to beat. You know, like something currently in production.

Not much of what you said other then your first paragraph is true.

You seriously think Roush Racing has a Stock Boss302?
Rules are the same for everyone in the GS class Serie: Power/weight ratio, specific suspension components and manufacturer, tires, restrictions, etc...
Might as well mention the Pirelli World Championship? (since the Camaro won the championship)
You think those are Stock too?

Price point? no prices yet so why bother speculate but for this purpose I think is normal for one to you pay more for a higher performance car, no?
Current Production year benchmark: They are still selling 2013 Boss LS right now aren't they? any performance differences from the 2012 Boss302 LS?
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Old 10-17-2013, 02:11 PM   #53
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Old 10-17-2013, 02:29 PM   #54
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maybe im confused....The Camaro and the Mustang are and will probably always be rivals. so it would only make sense that they compared the two. would you guys have rathered they compared it to the GT500...which is slower around the track?
I think Ford Fans have enough of losing in the face of the Camaro (understandable) and wishes to move the spotlight of these comparisons to the likes of the Porsche GT3s and Nissan GTRs has Al Oppenheiser joyfully mentionned.
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Old 10-17-2013, 02:41 PM   #55
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Pretty cool. And the obvious question is exactly the one I would have asked. Who knew? Besides Al that is.



This is correct. They "updated" the radio and hill assist in 2013, then the taillights and rear fascia on the 2014 and that's pretty much it. All ZL1's thus far should perform about the same.


Why are you here? Go troll somewhere else and leave the rest of us here to watch our porn in peace please.
No troll. I like, have always liked Camaro's, ZED cars in particular. I came here originally on rumour that the upcoming ZL1 was in fact going to be the Z. And now we know it was, but Big Al was kept awake at night and decided it was not yet the car. So in the meantime we get the ZL1 beating on the Boss, the 1LE beating on the Boss and now the Z/28 beating on the Boss. But the Boss has retired. Frankly I like the Z/28 and am impressed with it's performance, but the one of the three I would probably have bought would have been the 1LE, best combo of a NA motor and price. Still I already had a Boss at that point and was having a tonne of fun in it; so much so I wanted more of a track star. The Z isn't it. Too heavy and too late in the product life cycle. The gen 6 might be perfect, but by then I may be in my second ever new Mustang if Ford delivers a response to the Z/28. No Ford fanboy (although Al works hard to make me one), but I will always go for the enthusiast's car that fits me at the moment I'm looking. For years it was BMW, then this Ford. Who knows really, what's next. I don't.
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Old 10-17-2013, 02:44 PM   #56
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I get what youre saying...but I also think this is an older video, and as others said, it's the car Ford has established as their track car.

I dont think the z/28 is going to experience the zl1 syndrome...where your thunder is stolen and performance is one-upped by a competitor that reaches the market only a matter of months after its own much hyped release.

Until Ford has their IRS equipped Mustang dialed in a year or two after its initial release, I think this Z will be the best road course car from America behind a handful of Corvettes, and a Viper or two.
Good point. As much as I'm hoping for great things from the next Camaro and Mustang, expecting it the first year may be unrealistic.
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Old 10-17-2013, 03:09 PM   #57
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Not much of what you said other then your first paragraph is true.

You seriously think Roush Racing has a Stock Boss302?
Rules are the same for everyone in the GS class Serie: Power/weight ratio, specific suspension components and manufacturer, tires, restrictions, etc...
Might as well mention the Pirelli World Championship? (since the Camaro won the championship)
You think those are Stock too?

Price point? no prices yet so why bother speculate but for this purpose I think is normal for one to you pay more for a higher performance car, no?
Current Production year benchmark: They are still selling 2013 Boss LS right now aren't they? any performance differences from the 2012 Boss302 LS?
Apparently you haven't read the rule book for Grand Am's GS class. The engines for that series are mandated by the rules, and the Boss has a restrictor on the inlet, and is limited in RPM by GA. The engine is identical to the one in the street car other than that. The body on the R model car is seam welded for rigidity, and has a roll cage.

Page 7 of GCR for GS class as relates to Boss 302R
Must use 57 mm air inlet restrictor as supplied.
Must use OEM ECU as supplied by Ford Racing.
Must use unmodified exhaust manifold as supplied with engine. Permitted band clamp attachment.
Engine must be sealed as provided by Roush Yates Racing Engines, Contact John Maddox Ph # 704-658-1540 Ext 2064
 Engines may be built by any engine builder.
 Engine must be submitted to Roush Yates for physical inspection and power audit.
 Engine physical inspection will include a visual inspection of the crank, rods and pistons.
 Physical inspection will include an evaluation of cylinder head ports (intake and exhaust.)
 Physical inspection will include an evaluation of camshaft events.
 Physical inspection will include an evaluation of intake manifold and throttle bodies.
 Power audit includes running engine on dynamometer to establish compliance to Grand-Am accepted power levels.
 Audit will include spark and fuel slew to confirm max power level.
 If engine is found compliant in both physical inspection and power audit documentation of engine number and seal number will be recorded on-site and provided to Grand-Am.
 Engine will be sealed and returned to customer.
Rules as pertains to Camaro

Must use Bosch ECU, contact Bosch, Phone # (248) 876-2137
Stock, unmodified, LS-3 engine. No internal engine modifications are permitted unless listed.
Must use complete unmodified OEM air intake system.
Sportscar Challenge Regulations 7-8.2 through 7-8.11 are not applicable to this listing.
Engine must be sealed as provided by CRD Motorsports Contact Bobby Cronin (704) 792-1955
 Engines may be built by any engine builder.
 Engine must be submitted to CRD for physical inspection and power audit.
 Engine physical inspection will include a visual inspection of the crank, rods and pistons.
 Physical inspection will include an evaluation of cylinder head ports (intake and exhaust.)
 Physical inspection will include an evaluation of camshaft events.
 Physical inspection will include an evaluation of intake manifold and throttle bodies.
 Power audit includes running engine on dynamometer to establish compliance to Grand-Am accepted power levels.
 Audit will include spark and fuel slew to confirm max power level.
 If engine is found compliant in both physical inspection and power audit documentation of engine number and seal number will be recorded on-site and provided to Grand-Am.
 Engine will be sealed and returned to customer.
Both engines are sealed and tested for power output. Again, the 1LE and the Boss 302 are the natural rivals here. Your own site here is predicting a $70k+ price, and the Boss barely touches $50k. And the Boss is no longer being produced, and by the time the Z/28 hits the streets, Ford will be gearing up for the next gen production.

Again, I LIKE the car, but I think they should have chosen another currently produced car to target. If I give you more torque, more power, AND a bigger tire, you BETTER beat me!
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Old 10-17-2013, 04:37 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by LostPony View Post
Apparently you haven't read the rule book for Grand Am's GS class. The engines for that series are mandated by the rules, and the Boss has a restrictor on the inlet, and is limited in RPM by GA. The engine is identical to the one in the street car other than that. The body on the R model car is seam welded for rigidity, and has a roll cage.

Both engines are sealed and tested for power output. Again, the 1LE and the Boss 302 are the natural rivals here. Your own site here is predicting a $70k+ price, and the Boss barely touches $50k. And the Boss is no longer being produced, and by the time the Z/28 hits the streets, Ford will be gearing up for the next gen production.

Again, I LIKE the car, but I think they should have chosen another currently produced car to target. If I give you more torque, more power, AND a bigger tire, you BETTER beat me!
I've read the rule book, that was my point.
Like I said, each ''RACE'' car has to specify to certain restrictions, parts, and supplier to make them more equal on a power to weight ratio.
Before the Boss came in ,the 4.6 motor did not have the air restrictor.
So all things ''even'' out, Camaro is on top 9 out of 10 races.
And no the Boss is not the Rival of the 1LE… says Ford anyway.
But I do personally agree that it is more of a match.

You're going at it again with the currently produce and price point? Okay; Yes, you're right.
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Old 10-17-2013, 04:57 PM   #59
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No troll. I like, have always liked Camaro's, ZED cars in particular. I came here originally on rumour that the upcoming ZL1 was in fact going to be the Z. And now we know it was, but Big Al was kept awake at night and decided it was not yet the car. So in the meantime we get the ZL1 beating on the Boss, the 1LE beating on the Boss and now the Z/28 beating on the Boss. But the Boss has retired. Frankly I like the Z/28 and am impressed with it's performance, but the one of the three I would probably have bought would have been the 1LE, best combo of a NA motor and price. Still I already had a Boss at that point and was having a tonne of fun in it; so much so I wanted more of a track star. The Z isn't it. Too heavy and too late in the product life cycle. The gen 6 might be perfect, but by then I may be in my second ever new Mustang if Ford delivers a response to the Z/28. No Ford fanboy (although Al works hard to make me one), but I will always go for the enthusiast's car that fits me at the moment I'm looking. For years it was BMW, then this Ford. Who knows really, what's next. I don't.

I don't think GM really was concerned about beating the BOSS with the Z/28, knowing that the 1LE is capable of beating the BOSS. I think they were more interested in pushing the Camaro higher up in the rankings of performance cars. Of course, they ran it against the Mustang because that is the Camaro's primary competitor and most people would want to see it. And I am willing to be that after the Z/28 is released to journalists, will be between a BOSS and Z/28 but later comparisons will be with the GTR, GT3 and other high end cars.
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Old 10-17-2013, 05:34 PM   #60
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I wonder what this car would do against the Boss 302 if it had 18x10s all round, and intake , headers with full exhaust and tune. Would like to see that.
Which car are you talking about having those parts, the Boss or the Z?

I would be interested to see Z/28 vs GT350 when it comes out in about 6 months. That will be interesting.

If these cars get smaller and lighter as planned I may end up shifting track duty to a 6th gen Z/28.
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Old 10-17-2013, 06:04 PM   #61
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I think the problem most are having, well most Ford guys, is that the cars are not as close in spec as they were in the old days. In 1969 both had 302 engines, weighed nearly the same, and competed head to head on the racetrack.

Now the Camaro has a much larger engine, and is predicted to have a much higher price than it's rival. Also, the Boss is built and raced in the Continental Tire Series, in pretty much the same spec as the street car. The engine is the same, although a bit detuned for "competition parity". The Camaro in the series is closer to the 1LE, but with more lightweight parts. The new Z/28, while cool and closer to how I would have liked my Boss equipped, on paper it is in another league altogether.

I like the car, but I don't view it as a competitor to my car, and I would have chosen another car as the benchmark to beat. You know, like something currently in production.
It's many many years of history between GM and Ford. 2 words Trans Am. The reason the Z/28 and...the Boss ever existed. Putting the 2 against each other is like apple pie and ice cream, biscuits and gravy or rum and coke. I could go on, but it's just that simple.
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Old 10-17-2013, 06:14 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by LostPony View Post
Apparently you haven't read the rule book for Grand Am's GS class. The engines for that series are mandated by the rules, and the Boss has a restrictor on the inlet, and is limited in RPM by GA. The engine is identical to the one in the street car other than that. The body on the R model car is seam welded for rigidity, and has a roll cage.

Page 7 of GCR for GS class as relates to Boss 302R
Must use 57 mm air inlet restrictor as supplied.
Must use OEM ECU as supplied by Ford Racing.
Must use unmodified exhaust manifold as supplied with engine. Permitted band clamp attachment.
Engine must be sealed as provided by Roush Yates Racing Engines, Contact John Maddox Ph # 704-658-1540 Ext 2064
 Engines may be built by any engine builder.
 Engine must be submitted to Roush Yates for physical inspection and power audit.
 Engine physical inspection will include a visual inspection of the crank, rods and pistons.
 Physical inspection will include an evaluation of cylinder head ports (intake and exhaust.)
 Physical inspection will include an evaluation of camshaft events.
 Physical inspection will include an evaluation of intake manifold and throttle bodies.
 Power audit includes running engine on dynamometer to establish compliance to Grand-Am accepted power levels.
 Audit will include spark and fuel slew to confirm max power level.
 If engine is found compliant in both physical inspection and power audit documentation of engine number and seal number will be recorded on-site and provided to Grand-Am.
 Engine will be sealed and returned to customer.
Rules as pertains to Camaro

Must use Bosch ECU, contact Bosch, Phone # (248) 876-2137
Stock, unmodified, LS-3 engine. No internal engine modifications are permitted unless listed.
Must use complete unmodified OEM air intake system.
Sportscar Challenge Regulations 7-8.2 through 7-8.11 are not applicable to this listing.
Engine must be sealed as provided by CRD Motorsports Contact Bobby Cronin (704) 792-1955
 Engines may be built by any engine builder.
 Engine must be submitted to CRD for physical inspection and power audit.
 Engine physical inspection will include a visual inspection of the crank, rods and pistons.
 Physical inspection will include an evaluation of cylinder head ports (intake and exhaust.)
 Physical inspection will include an evaluation of camshaft events.
 Physical inspection will include an evaluation of intake manifold and throttle bodies.
 Power audit includes running engine on dynamometer to establish compliance to Grand-Am accepted power levels.
 Audit will include spark and fuel slew to confirm max power level.
 If engine is found compliant in both physical inspection and power audit documentation of engine number and seal number will be recorded on-site and provided to Grand-Am.
 Engine will be sealed and returned to customer.
Both engines are sealed and tested for power output. Again, the 1LE and the Boss 302 are the natural rivals here. Your own site here is predicting a $70k+ price, and the Boss barely touches $50k. And the Boss is no longer being produced, and by the time the Z/28 hits the streets, Ford will be gearing up for the next gen production.

Again, I LIKE the car, but I think they should have chosen another currently produced car to target. If I give you more torque, more power, AND a bigger tire, you BETTER beat me!
Boss LS $49K vs 1LE $37K = $12K difference
Boss LS $49K vs Z/28 $61K = $12K difference (Guess)

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Old 10-17-2013, 07:09 PM   #63
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Mike, I think we could go back and forth ALL day and not agree. I'll leave it at this, I like the approach GM took with the Z/28 in as much as they stripped all the BS stuff from the car. I wish Ford would have done the same on the Boss. I would gladly give up cruise and AC, some sound deadening, and other things for a lighter car. I applaud the Z/28 and GM. Long live the rivalry!
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Old 10-17-2013, 07:26 PM   #64
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Mike, I think we could go back and forth ALL day and not agree. I'll leave it at this, I like the approach GM took with the Z/28 in as much as they stripped all the BS stuff from the car. I wish Ford would have done the same on the Boss. I would gladly give up cruise and AC, some sound deadening, and other things for a lighter car. I applaud the Z/28 and GM. Long live the rivalry!
This.

I was shocked they built the thing and could never have imagined them building the car they did.
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Old 10-17-2013, 07:42 PM   #65
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I think the problem most are having, well most Ford guys, is that the cars are not as close in spec as they were in the old days. In 1969 both had 302 engines, weighed nearly the same, and competed head to head on the racetrack.

Now the Camaro has a much larger engine, and is predicted to have a much higher price than it's rival. Also, the Boss is built and raced in the Continental Tire Series, in pretty much the same spec as the street car. The engine is the same, although a bit detuned for "competition parity". The Camaro in the series is closer to the 1LE, but with more lightweight parts. The new Z/28, while cool and closer to how I would have liked my Boss equipped, on paper it is in another league altogether.

I like the car, but I don't view it as a competitor to my car, and I would have chosen another car as the benchmark to beat. You know, like something currently in production.
GTR .
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Old 10-17-2013, 07:56 PM   #66
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Mike, I think we could go back and forth ALL day and not agree. I'll leave it at this, I like the approach GM took with the Z/28 in as much as they stripped all the BS stuff from the car. I wish Ford would have done the same on the Boss. I would gladly give up cruise and AC, some sound deadening, and other things for a lighter car. I applaud the Z/28 and GM. Long live the rivalry!
You're right. Unless I takes a lot of PPH (pills per hour) like THE PILL... I pretty much gave up the fight in my last post...otherwise it would never end.
I guess now Ford will answer your prayer about this strip down track car. They have too and they will, just like you, the Blue Oval never backs down against a race so to speak.
Now, tell me about the other unused moniker Ford has in their lineup since the 60's...?
Mach 1 was that track ready? Or the GT350?
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Old 10-17-2013, 08:16 PM   #67
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Ford will always fight back and we're all glad for it. If it's with the Shelby Mustang models that's interesting. Why? The Shelby Mustangs always fought against the Corvette while the Mustang went against the Camaro.

Interesting since now the Camaro and Corvette are both moving up the food chain...
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Old 10-18-2013, 07:40 AM   #68
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honestly i hope Ford develops something to compete with the Z/28....Hell Dodge too! its just means more fast cars! and im all about it.
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Old 10-18-2013, 07:50 AM   #69
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I think the GT350 will be the track monster. The Mach 1 was never a track car, more luxury options, although you could option it out to be a strip terror. I love my Boss, so I may opt for the Mach if it appears in 2016 or whenever the rumor is it will hit. The GT350 would have to be Z/28 slaying good by a wide margin for me to opt for that car, but quite honestly I think I would rather have a Porsche GT3,used of course, than another Mustang or Camaro track toy.
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Old 10-18-2013, 07:54 AM   #70
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Another thing, I'm not completely comfortable with my Boss as a track toy due to some of the issues I have had, and others have reported on track. I think the 427 LS motor is a pretty bullet proof piece that GM had done a great job with since it's inception.

Styling wise I can't get past a few things on the Camaro, plus the poor visibility, to consider that car. Being a shorter person, it just doen't "fit" as well for me.
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Old 10-18-2013, 08:22 AM   #71
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Another thing, I'm not completely comfortable with my Boss as a track toy due to some of the issues I have had, and others have reported on track. I think the 427 LS motor is a pretty bullet proof piece that GM had done a great job with since it's inception.

Styling wise I can't get past a few things on the Camaro, plus the poor visibility, to consider that car. Being a shorter person, it just doen't "fit" as well for me.
What can't you get past styling wise on the camaro?
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Old 10-18-2013, 08:27 AM   #72
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oh yea, thats what Ford should do for sure. re-introduce the GT350 and have it on the same level as the Z/28. thats would be fun to watch for sure.
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Old 10-18-2013, 09:06 AM   #73
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Just my opinion, but to me it looks like the front of the car and the back were designed by two different commitees, and then merged together. I just don't like the back of the car, which to me is even worse now with the 2014 refresh. Also sitting in the car, I found the interior to be sorely lacking. There is a reason you don't put the gauges low on the center console.

With that said, I also am not a big fan of the rear of the 2010-12 Mustang, but I love the front and sides. The 2013 rear is a big improvement in my opinion on the Mustang, but I still think there is room for improvement. To me the Challenger is the best looking of the current crop of cars, but alas, I find it a bit too large and heavy for my taste.

I can't wait to see the next generation of the three cars, even if they replace the Chalenger as rumored with a Barracuda. All appear to be trimming down and getting lighter, which is long overdue.
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Old 10-18-2013, 09:08 AM   #74
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Also, I would like to add that even though I post on SVT, I find the tone here much more pleasant and conducive to civil discussion. There are exceptions at times, but overall, nice to be chatting with fellow gearheads!
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Old 10-18-2013, 09:25 AM   #75
Q'smuscle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LostPony View Post
Just my opinion, but to me it looks like the front of the car and the back were designed by two different commitees, and then merged together. I just don't like the back of the car, which to me is even worse now with the 2014 refresh. Also sitting in the car, I found the interior to be sorely lacking. There is a reason you don't put the gauges low on the center console.

With that said, I also am not a big fan of the rear of the 2010-12 Mustang, but I love the front and sides. The 2013 rear is a big improvement in my opinion on the Mustang, but I still think there is room for improvement. To me the Challenger is the best looking of the current crop of cars, but alas, I find it a bit too large and heavy for my taste.

I can't wait to see the next generation of the three cars, even if they replace the Chalenger as rumored with a Barracuda. All appear to be trimming down and getting lighter, which is long overdue.
Oh , ok ! nicely put. I like everything about the 13 mustang exterior styling . I like the challengers but the interior can't hold a candle to the mustang and camaro's interior styling. The Challenger don't have the technology and the mustang and camaro just have too much grabbing your attention in a good way. I do love the size of the Challenger though. The camaro I guess for the ppl that like the recaros that's the only improvement. The camaro and mustang looks good when customized the Challenger not so much.

I was looking at buying a Challenger too. So, you know I do like them. Tome all it has is the old school look .But mustang and camaro headlights are sweet. I don't like the size of the mustang . I really think now the mustang's and the camaro's are the best looking. Well, exclude the 14's . LOL...
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