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Old 10-25-2013, 01:57 PM   #26
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Also I will teach my children to respect police officers and listen and obey their orders.
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Old 10-25-2013, 02:02 PM   #27
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Actual photo of the replica firearm. Blame goes to parents who purchased it and allowed their son to leave the home with it.
Yea, that would make anyone react fast in self defense.....it looks very real.
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Old 10-25-2013, 02:04 PM   #28
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Probably the only one that thinks this but shouldn't have the officers fired either a warning or a none fatal body shot ?
I believe he had a hoodie on, and was facing away from the officers. when asked to drop the weapon, the kid started to turn, and raise the toy gun. I don't think officers are taught to shoot warning shots, if they fire their weapon.
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Old 10-25-2013, 02:07 PM   #29
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If you have ever been in a shooting you would understand why 7 shots were fired. In my incident I fired 8 and my partner fired 6. According to the video we fired the 14 rounds between us in a little over a second although it seemed forever as time seemed to stand still.

We do not fire warning shots and train to shoot center mass because it is the largest target. It just so happens many vital organs are in the center mass. We shoot to stop the threat. Shooting for less lethal areas is reserved for less lethal such as bean bag rounds and not regular rounds.
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Old 10-25-2013, 02:07 PM   #30
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Warning shots are only in the movies. If an officer fires, it is meant to eliminate a threat. In the real world a warning shot will just get you hurt. If you, as an officer, perceive a lethal threat you shoot to kill!!
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Old 10-25-2013, 02:17 PM   #31
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Only thing I see that I see a red flag is the 8 shots fired and 7 hits. Why so many shots fired?
Get in your first shot out and you will understand why. The magazine will be empty before you even know what the hell is going on, its a crazy situation and it is not an emotion that tranining can really prepare you for.
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Old 10-25-2013, 02:19 PM   #32
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If you have ever been in a shooting you would understand why 7 shots were fired. In my incident I fired 8 and my partner fired 6. According to the video we fired the 14 rounds between us in a little over a second although it seemed forever as time seemed to stand still.

We do not fire warning shots and train to shoot center mass because it is the largest target. It just so happens many vital organs are in the center mass. We shoot to stop the threat. Shooting for less lethal areas is reserved for less lethal such as bean bag rounds and not regular rounds.
Thank you for providing more insight into that for me. I can certainly understand both sides in this situation. It's too bad they didn't have rubber bullets or some other non-lethal solution...

I can only imagine how slow time must seem in those type of situations

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Old 10-25-2013, 02:26 PM   #33
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7 shots is excessive.
The kid was wrong for being dressed like that and yielding a weapon that resembles the real thing.
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Old 10-25-2013, 02:37 PM   #34
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Probably the only one that thinks this but shouldn't have the officers fired either a warning or a none fatal body shot ?
What would have happened if one of the officers fired a warning show, flew past the kid and hit some lady in a house, or shot at the ground, the bullet ricocheted up and his someone still? Anyone who trains with a gun is usually trained not to pull the trigger until you've decided you want to kill whatever it is you're pointing at.

In this situation, I'm with the cops. Give a kid a toy gun, he takes it out in public (with a toy pistol in his waistband, which the cops didn't see until after he was shot but obviously the kid was pretending to be a gangster) he's just asking for trouble. Quite frankly, if he came up on me like that I probably would've shot him too.
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Old 10-25-2013, 02:41 PM   #35
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What are you basing your opinion of 7 shots being excessive? A modern handgun with an experienced user can fire 6-7 rounds per second. Given human reaction times and depending on the type of weapon used, there may have been no indication that the kid was hit or falling. It's not like in the movies, a person will not go flying backwards when shot. Especially if they were using high velocity rounds like a 9MM, those bullets pass through the body and it can take half a second or more for the person to even realize they have been shot.
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Old 10-25-2013, 02:53 PM   #36
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We are responsible for every round that comes out of our weapon. IF we were allowed to fire a warning shot and it does damage to property or hurts/kills someone we are responsible. In fact here in KC, 2-3 years ago, a girl was killed by a bullet fired from some distance away during a New Year's Eve get together which included "celebratory" gunfire. It can and does happen.

In reality, during my shooting, the reason I fired 8 was because my gun malfunctioned (actually self induced due to the slide locking lever being the bigger version offered on the G35 model which I promptly replaced with the thinner one when I got my pistol back). There is no definitive minimum or maximum amount of rounds to fire but you might be questioned why if the amount seems out of place. It was noticed in actual shootings some of our officers were firing two rounds and stepping left or right and pausing. Guess what? That is exactly how we do our qualifications. The range staff noticed this and change the qual up every so often so nothing gets ingrained. Kinda like the CHP incident where they found empty casings in the dead officers pockets... they had it ingrained to pick up their brass after shooting.

Bottom line is don't judge if you weren't there. I have been in a similar situation but I still try not to judge because it is just Monday morning quarterbacking. Officers are judged on what they knew at the time of the incident, not what was learned afterwards. I am just trying to paint a more objective viewpoint for some as they may not realize what all goes on, etc during a situation like this.

On a related note, what if someone painted the end of a real AK47 or AR15 blaze orange to try to disguise it as an airsoft weapon? Have any of you seen the super soaker that had a real shotgun inside and would fire? Don't point things at people with real guns if you aren't prepared to deal with the consequences.

This is a horrible tragedy and I, too, think the parents (or whoever let him take the thing out of the house or lack of supervision that allowed it) are at least partially to blame. I have seen 10 year old kids stuffing toy guns down the front of their pants in the inner city. That is learned behavior from somewhere. I have had people point their hands at me like a gun and act like they are pulling a trigger. Once again, learned behavior.

Someone earlier in the thread said the best course of action is to comply and then deal with the treatment later. That is the best advice. Police are reactionary, we don't drive around shooting people at will. We react to their actions. If people would comply, incidents like this would be reduced.

Another thing just occurred to me as I sit here typing, a few years ago there was a shootout between an officer and a bank robbery suspect. The suspect was hit something like 17 times with a .45 ACP before he went down. He wasn't high or drunk or wearing body armor, just determined. The last two rounds, if I recall correctly, were headshots (shot placement is more important than caliber) that stopped him. So again, saying how many shots it should take is not plausible in situations like these.
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Old 10-25-2013, 02:55 PM   #37
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Quote:
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7 shots is excessive.
The kid was wrong for being dressed like that and yielding a weapon that resembles the real thing.
It might seem like overkill, but like I said earlier, in that kind of situation your mind is in a different gear. When someone aims what you believe is a real, loaded AK-47 at your head, you'd probably empty your magazine into him as well.
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Old 10-25-2013, 03:04 PM   #38
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Probably the only one that thinks this but shouldn't have the officers fired either a warning or a none fatal body shot ?
Warning shots are against department policy everywhere in California.
LEO's are trained to shoot at center mass because you are less likely to miss. Shooting at a leg is only in the movies.
LEO's are trained to stop the threat and you fire until the threat stops. That means 8 shots in the mind of this LEO.
If you are close enough, LEO's are also trained in the "failure drill" to stop a threat. Failure drill is three shots, two to center mass and one to the head.
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Old 10-25-2013, 03:52 PM   #39
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Guys guys I was giving my opinion..
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Old 10-25-2013, 04:01 PM   #40
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Guys guys I was giving my opinion..


appartently is is the wrong one. Just kinding.

I was worried this thread was going to get shut down fast but I am glad people are discussing the topic like adults.
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Old 10-25-2013, 04:23 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by blake-b View Post
We are responsible for every round that comes out of our weapon. IF we were allowed to fire a warning shot and it does damage to property or hurts/kills someone we are responsible. In fact here in KC, 2-3 years ago, a girl was killed by a bullet fired from some distance away during a New Year's Eve get together which included "celebratory" gunfire. It can and does happen.

In reality, during my shooting, the reason I fired 8 was because my gun malfunctioned (actually self induced due to the slide locking lever being the bigger version offered on the G35 model which I promptly replaced with the thinner one when I got my pistol back). There is no definitive minimum or maximum amount of rounds to fire but you might be questioned why if the amount seems out of place. It was noticed in actual shootings some of our officers were firing two rounds and stepping left or right and pausing. Guess what? That is exactly how we do our qualifications. The range staff noticed this and change the qual up every so often so nothing gets ingrained. Kinda like the CHP incident where they found empty casings in the dead officers pockets... they had it ingrained to pick up their brass after shooting.

Bottom line is don't judge if you weren't there. I have been in a similar situation but I still try not to judge because it is just Monday morning quarterbacking. Officers are judged on what they knew at the time of the incident, not what was learned afterwards. I am just trying to paint a more objective viewpoint for some as they may not realize what all goes on, etc during a situation like this.

On a related note, what if someone painted the end of a real AK47 or AR15 blaze orange to try to disguise it as an airsoft weapon? Have any of you seen the super soaker that had a real shotgun inside and would fire? Don't point things at people with real guns if you aren't prepared to deal with the consequences.

This is a horrible tragedy and I, too, think the parents (or whoever let him take the thing out of the house or lack of supervision that allowed it) are at least partially to blame. I have seen 10 year old kids stuffing toy guns down the front of their pants in the inner city. That is learned behavior from somewhere. I have had people point their hands at me like a gun and act like they are pulling a trigger. Once again, learned behavior.

Someone earlier in the thread said the best course of action is to comply and then deal with the treatment later. That is the best advice. Police are reactionary, we don't drive around shooting people at will. We react to their actions. If people would comply, incidents like this would be reduced.

Another thing just occurred to me as I sit here typing, a few years ago there was a shootout between an officer and a bank robbery suspect. The suspect was hit something like 17 times with a .45 ACP before he went down. He wasn't high or drunk or wearing body armor, just determined. The last two rounds, if I recall correctly, were headshots (shot placement is more important than caliber) that stopped him. So again, saying how many shots it should take is not plausible in situations like these.
I remember hearing that story on the news. I just moved to STL from KC.

I miss my city!

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Old 10-25-2013, 04:49 PM   #42
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Wow that sucks why would anyone be strolling along in a hoodie and a look alike AK 47 is beyond me that is what most terrorist use/rebels, I don't see where 8 shots fired and 7 hits is a excessive for some people a real Ak has a 7.62 round which will I think go through most body armor that cops wear on a daily basis and a AK fires what 600 700 rds per min? I think all blame is on the Teenager, he didn't listen to the cops unless they told him to turn around without dropping the weapon first which I doubt is what happened. Sometimes the parents don't know what their kids own and have so I cant put the blame on them till they say they gave it too him.
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Old 10-25-2013, 05:01 PM   #43
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The story is sad yes,but the cop didn't have to kill the "child" if he felt his life was in danger,then just wound him if you have to shoot.This brought up an unhappy memory.My step dad was(and obviously didn't like me) a cop,and he used to like to open up my door when i was sleeping,and shoot me with a BB gun while i slept,apparently my white ass was just a target to him,i found 5 BB's in my waterbed when i moved out.Thankfully he died a painful cancer death,and no i dont like cops!!!!!!
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Old 10-25-2013, 05:03 PM   #44
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The story is sad yes,but the cop didn't have to kill the "child" if he felt his life was in danger,then just wound him if you have to shoot.This brought up an unhappy memory.My step dad was(and obviously didn't like me) a cop,and he used to like to open up my door when i was sleeping,and shoot me with a BB gun while i slept,apparently my white ass was just a target to him,i found 5 BB's in my waterbed when i moved out.Thankfully he died a painful cancer death,and no i dont like cops!!!!!!
A guy aims an AK-47 at your face and you're going to wound him?

Pfft.
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Old 10-25-2013, 05:04 PM   #45
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A guy aims an AK-47 at your face and you're going to wound him?

Pfft.
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Old 10-25-2013, 05:29 PM   #46
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A guy aims an AK-47 at your face and you're going to wound him?

Pfft.
Understandable but that's not the case.
The person yielding the "weapon" was a child and clearly had the frame and body of a 13 year old kid.
That's the factor that's being ignored on here. The kid wasn't a 18 year old with the build of that of an adult. Wearing a hoodie and holding a gun was plain stupid but the cops should of analyzed the situation properly. I'm pretty sure police officers go thru extensive training in analyzing the various situations just like they do when firing to kill.


Let the bashing on MY opinion begin.
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Old 10-25-2013, 05:31 PM   #47
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The story is sad yes,but the cop didn't have to kill the "child" if he felt his life was in danger,then just wound him if you have to shoot.This brought up an unhappy memory.My step dad was(and obviously didn't like me) a cop,and he used to like to open up my door when i was sleeping,and shoot me with a BB gun while i slept,apparently my white ass was just a target to him,i found 5 BB's in my waterbed when i moved out.Thankfully he died a painful cancer death,and no i dont like cops!!!!!!
Do you honestly think you can accurately hit a target no more than half a foot (let's say arm or leg where there's no vital organs) in order to wound and disable but not kill? No matter who you are, when you're in a firefight you don't think to wound. You shoot to stop the assailant no matter what.

Bottom line, kid's fault. He wore a hoodie, with a fake AK and a fake pistol stuffed down his pants. Even if he didn't intend to do anything wrong, not saying he did, it was his choice of what to wear and to look unsavory. His parents choice to give him a fake gun when he's so obviously irresponsible.

Hindsight is 20/20 but most people would've blamed the officers if the boys gun was real. If the AK was real, he turned around and shot the officers, or even if they wounded him, he went down and still had the AK in reach and fired. That AK will tear up a standard police vest. Yet most everyone would've blamed the officers for not shooting or for just wounding him.

Last edited by Leo_black; 10-25-2013 at 05:47 PM.
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Old 10-25-2013, 05:51 PM   #48
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clearly had the frame and body of a 13 year old kid.
I'm trying to figure out what that means. Seriously, people come in different shapes and sizes. So you can certainly have a young person who is short and thin, but you can also have a young person who is 6 foot and 170 lbs just as much as you can have a 30 year old who is 5 foot and 120 lbs.

I have my own issues and opinions about cops, but these cops aren't to blame here. They did what they had to do. Blame the parents if you want. I don't want to blame manufacturers for some people's actions, but blame them if you want. You can go so far as to blame the city policies that the cops operate under, although if suddenly you tell cops they cannot defend their own lives then I think you'll have a bunch of cops who quit and then where will you be.

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I was worried this thread was going to get shut down fast but I am glad people are discussing the topic like adults.
me too
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Old 10-25-2013, 05:57 PM   #49
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Probably the only one that thinks this but shouldn't have the officers fired either a warning or a none fatal body shot ?
A lot of people seem to think along these lines.

A warning shot. Or maybe shot in the foot. Or maybe, shoot the gun out of his hands.

I'm not sure what your experience is with firearms and I'm not trying to make you look dumb or childish. Warning shots and 'non-fatal' wounding shots are from the movies and TV.

A warning shot can get a cop killed dead. And so can a "wounding" shot. And then too, where does that warning shot bullet go? It doesn't disappear. When they pull their guns, they mean it. And they should mean it.
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Old 10-25-2013, 05:58 PM   #50
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You have to ask yourself, what was he up to with a fake AK-47 and a fake pistol in his pants?
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