Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
HRE Wheels
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Members Area > Off-topic Discussions

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-25-2013, 02:07 PM   #29
blake-b

 
blake-b's Avatar
 
Drives: Black 2010 2SS/RS LS3
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 2,192
If you have ever been in a shooting you would understand why 7 shots were fired. In my incident I fired 8 and my partner fired 6. According to the video we fired the 14 rounds between us in a little over a second although it seemed forever as time seemed to stand still.

We do not fire warning shots and train to shoot center mass because it is the largest target. It just so happens many vital organs are in the center mass. We shoot to stop the threat. Shooting for less lethal areas is reserved for less lethal such as bean bag rounds and not regular rounds.
blake-b is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 02:07 PM   #30
WarMachineZL1
War Machine
 
Drives: 2012 Ashen Grey ZL1 #00012
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 48
Warning shots are only in the movies. If an officer fires, it is meant to eliminate a threat. In the real world a warning shot will just get you hurt. If you, as an officer, perceive a lethal threat you shoot to kill!!
WarMachineZL1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 02:17 PM   #31
RBL
 
Drives: 2010 camaro 2SS
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: WV
Posts: 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gtkilrss View Post
Only thing I see that I see a red flag is the 8 shots fired and 7 hits. Why so many shots fired?
Get in your first shot out and you will understand why. The magazine will be empty before you even know what the hell is going on, its a crazy situation and it is not an emotion that tranining can really prepare you for.
__________________
www.lashwaymotorsports.com

2012 L99, whipple, Roto-Fab, Stainless Power headers, ZL1 fuel pump, cat delete.
RBL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 02:19 PM   #32
Diode Dynamics

 
Diode Dynamics's Avatar
 
Drives: Camaro Lighting Experts
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 1,541
Quote:
Originally Posted by blake-b View Post
If you have ever been in a shooting you would understand why 7 shots were fired. In my incident I fired 8 and my partner fired 6. According to the video we fired the 14 rounds between us in a little over a second although it seemed forever as time seemed to stand still.

We do not fire warning shots and train to shoot center mass because it is the largest target. It just so happens many vital organs are in the center mass. We shoot to stop the threat. Shooting for less lethal areas is reserved for less lethal such as bean bag rounds and not regular rounds.
Thank you for providing more insight into that for me. I can certainly understand both sides in this situation. It's too bad they didn't have rubber bullets or some other non-lethal solution...

I can only imagine how slow time must seem in those type of situations

Nick C.
__________________
Diode Dynamics is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 02:26 PM   #33
LIM3
it's mind bottling..
 
LIM3's Avatar
 
Drives: SGM
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: miami floirda.
Posts: 5,395
7 shots is excessive.
The kid was wrong for being dressed like that and yielding a weapon that resembles the real thing.
__________________
LIM3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 02:37 PM   #34
Leo_black
 
Drives: 2013 1LT
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Utah
Posts: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by LIM3 View Post
Probably the only one that thinks this but shouldn't have the officers fired either a warning or a none fatal body shot ?
What would have happened if one of the officers fired a warning show, flew past the kid and hit some lady in a house, or shot at the ground, the bullet ricocheted up and his someone still? Anyone who trains with a gun is usually trained not to pull the trigger until you've decided you want to kill whatever it is you're pointing at.

In this situation, I'm with the cops. Give a kid a toy gun, he takes it out in public (with a toy pistol in his waistband, which the cops didn't see until after he was shot but obviously the kid was pretending to be a gangster) he's just asking for trouble. Quite frankly, if he came up on me like that I probably would've shot him too.
Leo_black is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 02:41 PM   #35
WarMachineZL1
War Machine
 
Drives: 2012 Ashen Grey ZL1 #00012
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 48
What are you basing your opinion of 7 shots being excessive? A modern handgun with an experienced user can fire 6-7 rounds per second. Given human reaction times and depending on the type of weapon used, there may have been no indication that the kid was hit or falling. It's not like in the movies, a person will not go flying backwards when shot. Especially if they were using high velocity rounds like a 9MM, those bullets pass through the body and it can take half a second or more for the person to even realize they have been shot.
WarMachineZL1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 02:53 PM   #36
blake-b

 
blake-b's Avatar
 
Drives: Black 2010 2SS/RS LS3
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Kansas City, MO
Posts: 2,192
We are responsible for every round that comes out of our weapon. IF we were allowed to fire a warning shot and it does damage to property or hurts/kills someone we are responsible. In fact here in KC, 2-3 years ago, a girl was killed by a bullet fired from some distance away during a New Year's Eve get together which included "celebratory" gunfire. It can and does happen.

In reality, during my shooting, the reason I fired 8 was because my gun malfunctioned (actually self induced due to the slide locking lever being the bigger version offered on the G35 model which I promptly replaced with the thinner one when I got my pistol back). There is no definitive minimum or maximum amount of rounds to fire but you might be questioned why if the amount seems out of place. It was noticed in actual shootings some of our officers were firing two rounds and stepping left or right and pausing. Guess what? That is exactly how we do our qualifications. The range staff noticed this and change the qual up every so often so nothing gets ingrained. Kinda like the CHP incident where they found empty casings in the dead officers pockets... they had it ingrained to pick up their brass after shooting.

Bottom line is don't judge if you weren't there. I have been in a similar situation but I still try not to judge because it is just Monday morning quarterbacking. Officers are judged on what they knew at the time of the incident, not what was learned afterwards. I am just trying to paint a more objective viewpoint for some as they may not realize what all goes on, etc during a situation like this.

On a related note, what if someone painted the end of a real AK47 or AR15 blaze orange to try to disguise it as an airsoft weapon? Have any of you seen the super soaker that had a real shotgun inside and would fire? Don't point things at people with real guns if you aren't prepared to deal with the consequences.

This is a horrible tragedy and I, too, think the parents (or whoever let him take the thing out of the house or lack of supervision that allowed it) are at least partially to blame. I have seen 10 year old kids stuffing toy guns down the front of their pants in the inner city. That is learned behavior from somewhere. I have had people point their hands at me like a gun and act like they are pulling a trigger. Once again, learned behavior.

Someone earlier in the thread said the best course of action is to comply and then deal with the treatment later. That is the best advice. Police are reactionary, we don't drive around shooting people at will. We react to their actions. If people would comply, incidents like this would be reduced.

Another thing just occurred to me as I sit here typing, a few years ago there was a shootout between an officer and a bank robbery suspect. The suspect was hit something like 17 times with a .45 ACP before he went down. He wasn't high or drunk or wearing body armor, just determined. The last two rounds, if I recall correctly, were headshots (shot placement is more important than caliber) that stopped him. So again, saying how many shots it should take is not plausible in situations like these.
blake-b is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 02:55 PM   #37
FenwickHockey65
General Motors Aficionado
 
FenwickHockey65's Avatar
 
Drives: 2003 GMC Envoy/2007 Ford F-150
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 33,917
Send a message via AIM to FenwickHockey65
Quote:
Originally Posted by LIM3 View Post
7 shots is excessive.
The kid was wrong for being dressed like that and yielding a weapon that resembles the real thing.
It might seem like overkill, but like I said earlier, in that kind of situation your mind is in a different gear. When someone aims what you believe is a real, loaded AK-47 at your head, you'd probably empty your magazine into him as well.
__________________
FenwickHockey65's GM Thread!

2003 GMC Envoy SLE - Airaid Cold Air Intake, Gibson Performance Catback Exhaust
2007 Ford F-150 XL SuperCab (State-issued)
FenwickHockey65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 03:04 PM   #38
upflying


 
upflying's Avatar
 
Drives: '86 Monte Carlo SS
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Reno, NV
Posts: 3,119
Quote:
Originally Posted by LIM3 View Post
Probably the only one that thinks this but shouldn't have the officers fired either a warning or a none fatal body shot ?
Warning shots are against department policy everywhere in California.
LEO's are trained to shoot at center mass because you are less likely to miss. Shooting at a leg is only in the movies.
LEO's are trained to stop the threat and you fire until the threat stops. That means 8 shots in the mind of this LEO.
If you are close enough, LEO's are also trained in the "failure drill" to stop a threat. Failure drill is three shots, two to center mass and one to the head.
upflying is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 03:52 PM   #39
LIM3
it's mind bottling..
 
LIM3's Avatar
 
Drives: SGM
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: miami floirda.
Posts: 5,395
Guys guys I was giving my opinion..
__________________
LIM3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 04:01 PM   #40
jewel25
Nov 20, 2016
 
jewel25's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 RJT 2LT/RS
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 36,757
Quote:
Originally Posted by LIM3 View Post
Guys guys I was giving my opinion..


appartently is is the wrong one. Just kinding.

I was worried this thread was going to get shut down fast but I am glad people are discussing the topic like adults.
__________________
jewel25 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 04:23 PM   #41
Diode Dynamics

 
Diode Dynamics's Avatar
 
Drives: Camaro Lighting Experts
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 1,541
Quote:
Originally Posted by blake-b View Post
We are responsible for every round that comes out of our weapon. IF we were allowed to fire a warning shot and it does damage to property or hurts/kills someone we are responsible. In fact here in KC, 2-3 years ago, a girl was killed by a bullet fired from some distance away during a New Year's Eve get together which included "celebratory" gunfire. It can and does happen.

In reality, during my shooting, the reason I fired 8 was because my gun malfunctioned (actually self induced due to the slide locking lever being the bigger version offered on the G35 model which I promptly replaced with the thinner one when I got my pistol back). There is no definitive minimum or maximum amount of rounds to fire but you might be questioned why if the amount seems out of place. It was noticed in actual shootings some of our officers were firing two rounds and stepping left or right and pausing. Guess what? That is exactly how we do our qualifications. The range staff noticed this and change the qual up every so often so nothing gets ingrained. Kinda like the CHP incident where they found empty casings in the dead officers pockets... they had it ingrained to pick up their brass after shooting.

Bottom line is don't judge if you weren't there. I have been in a similar situation but I still try not to judge because it is just Monday morning quarterbacking. Officers are judged on what they knew at the time of the incident, not what was learned afterwards. I am just trying to paint a more objective viewpoint for some as they may not realize what all goes on, etc during a situation like this.

On a related note, what if someone painted the end of a real AK47 or AR15 blaze orange to try to disguise it as an airsoft weapon? Have any of you seen the super soaker that had a real shotgun inside and would fire? Don't point things at people with real guns if you aren't prepared to deal with the consequences.

This is a horrible tragedy and I, too, think the parents (or whoever let him take the thing out of the house or lack of supervision that allowed it) are at least partially to blame. I have seen 10 year old kids stuffing toy guns down the front of their pants in the inner city. That is learned behavior from somewhere. I have had people point their hands at me like a gun and act like they are pulling a trigger. Once again, learned behavior.

Someone earlier in the thread said the best course of action is to comply and then deal with the treatment later. That is the best advice. Police are reactionary, we don't drive around shooting people at will. We react to their actions. If people would comply, incidents like this would be reduced.

Another thing just occurred to me as I sit here typing, a few years ago there was a shootout between an officer and a bank robbery suspect. The suspect was hit something like 17 times with a .45 ACP before he went down. He wasn't high or drunk or wearing body armor, just determined. The last two rounds, if I recall correctly, were headshots (shot placement is more important than caliber) that stopped him. So again, saying how many shots it should take is not plausible in situations like these.
I remember hearing that story on the news. I just moved to STL from KC.

I miss my city!

Nick C.
__________________
Diode Dynamics is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 04:49 PM   #42
Silverlsinva


 
Silverlsinva's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 Fiat 500 Abarth Grigio
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Manassas, Va
Posts: 3,124
Wow that sucks why would anyone be strolling along in a hoodie and a look alike AK 47 is beyond me that is what most terrorist use/rebels, I don't see where 8 shots fired and 7 hits is a excessive for some people a real Ak has a 7.62 round which will I think go through most body armor that cops wear on a daily basis and a AK fires what 600 700 rds per min? I think all blame is on the Teenager, he didn't listen to the cops unless they told him to turn around without dropping the weapon first which I doubt is what happened. Sometimes the parents don't know what their kids own and have so I cant put the blame on them till they say they gave it too him.
Silverlsinva is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.