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Camaro Z/28 Forum - Z/28 Specific Topics Discussions related to the 5th gen Camaro Z/28 model

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Old 12-07-2013, 12:44 PM   #1
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Mustang Will Be Nürburgring-Tuned, But No Times Will Be Released

I suspect Ford would care a LOT about publicizing times if they could beat the Z/28 around the Nordschleife. Maybe one day, but not now -- I don't think anything they make over the next 18 months will break 7:50 around the Ring. Compared to the Z/28's assumed 7:31, publicizing Mustang times would be (I think it's safe to say) an incredibly boneheaded move...

ORIGINAL ARTICLE HERE

2015 Ford Mustang Will Be Nürburgring-Tuned, But No Times Will Be Released
BY Nelson Ireson

The Nürburgring-Nordschleife, for good or ill, has become the benchmark for a performance car's abilities. It's certainly a fine place to tune a car--it has a huge variety of corners, surfaces, bumps, and long straights. But do lap times really matter?

Ford apparently thinks they don't--at least in the case of the new 2015 Mustang.

Speaking with Fox News's Gary Gastelu at the New York unveiling of the new Mustang, Ford's chief engineer for the car, Dave Pericak, said, "We're not going to release the times, but we will be on the Nürburgring, we will be in Europe, showing what this car can do.

The new 2015 Mustang will be available in late 2014 in both convertible and fastback coupe forms. The same base 3.7-liter V-6 rates 300 horsepower and 270 pound-feet of torque; an all-new 2.3-liter EcoBoost turbocharged four-cylinder rates 305 horsepower, but 300 pound-feet of torque; and a revised version of the Coyota 5.0-liter V-8 scores 420 horsepower and 390 pound-feet of torque.

Find the full details at our 2015 Ford Mustang preview, and be sure to stay up to date with all of the latest Ford Mustang news.
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Old 12-07-2013, 12:48 PM   #2
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NOT for the sake of self-aggrandizement, but:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=331324

Good ol' Dave is making all manner of p.r. pitches. Some may even prove to be true.
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Old 12-07-2013, 10:06 PM   #3
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They're scared. Just like they were when they wouldn't let the Boss be tested against the 1LE. I guess they don't care about 0-60 times or braking distances either. Why go to the ring and not post a time? Are they gonna be out there just taking a leisurely stroll? Even if their times don't beat a certain Camaro they can still show the car's capabilities. It really comes down to they don't think they can win. If they could produce a better time they would be shouting it from the rooftops.
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Old 12-07-2013, 10:16 PM   #4
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Haven't heard Ford say the new Mustang is a purpose-built, track-only car, either....

Ring time makes sense for the Z/28, not so much for a Mustang...
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Old 12-08-2013, 06:43 AM   #5
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Haven't heard Ford say the new Mustang is a purpose-built, track-only car, either....

Ring time makes sense for the Z/28, not so much for a Mustang...
This isn't 1972. People are interested in more than just straight line performance these days and the Ring is a good way to show what a car can do in the turns. Ford can choose not to play if they want but they're only hurting themselves. Bragging rights sell cars. Period. There is no shame in posting a time that is slower than a competitors car, especially if your car is just a few seconds slower and is much more affordable. What is not acceptable is posting a slower time and charging more for your car, hence the lack of a GT500 ring time. They want you to pay more for less car and some people are happy to do that.
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Old 12-08-2013, 07:53 AM   #6
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For me the ring times don't mean anything. The cars that run there aren't the cars that the public ends up with. There doesn't seem to be any rules as to keeping the cars in production form down to the tires and we have to rely on the manufacturer to be honest.

I put more stock into Tracks like VIR and other places after outsiders get a hold of production versions and then compare to other production versions. It becomes more believable. I can see using the ring to test cars, but that's were it ends for me.

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Old 12-08-2013, 08:31 AM   #7
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For me the ring times don't mean anything. The cars that run there aren't the cars that the public ends up with. There doesn't seem to be any rules as to keeping the cars in production form down to the tires and we have to rely in the manufacturer to be honest.

I put more stock into Tracks like VIR and other places after outsiders get a hold of production versions and then compare to other production versions. It becomes more believable. I can see using the ring to test cars, but that's were it ends for me.
I agree it is nothing but fluff.but hey what do I know I am just a car guy.
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Old 12-08-2013, 08:50 AM   #8
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Agreed. No set start/stop point, no set rules, no official timing system, etc. A company can use it to tune/etc but comparing to others when they maybe measuring different, or running different tires/pads/fuel/etc for runs is just not productive.
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Old 12-08-2013, 08:52 AM   #9
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This isn't anything new, it's what Ford has always done with Nurburgring testing. Test and tune. They've never released times, and explained why; there are no controls in place and too many variables for any times to have any validity for real world comparisons, and chose not to use them for marketing like some other manufacturers have.

I guess it's a big deal here, because GM does use them. The controlled testing on shorter tracks here will tell you all you need to know, and will be more valid comparisons then the uncontrolled testing taking place across the ocean on a very long track with conditions so varied, that even different sections of the track change because of the long distance and elevation changes.
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Old 12-08-2013, 10:02 AM   #10
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The Mustang GT is not intended to compete with the Z/28, but rather the SS. What does this mean in relation to the Z/28? The rumor is a track oriented Mustang will come out later. Hopefully Ford will keep the price out of the crazy range. Ring times are fun to compare, but it is not a very representative race track. So really the GT only has to beat 8:20. Do you doubt it will?
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Old 12-08-2013, 10:54 AM   #11
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Ring times are cool with me because they give you a global comparison to awesome cars as well as many historical laps. However, the one I care about is lightning lap at VIR. That to me is a test that is very valid since they comment on how the car is to drive in addition to numbers vs Some awesome cars. When the 1LE and ZL1 ran it last year you knew they were serious cars, ring times or not. Porsches, BMWs, Audia, mustangs..... They all got beat in a controled test. Maybe ford should take note that camaro destroyed the 911 and BMWs with current gen cars hence they should focus on the camaro a lot more than their Chief states.
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Old 12-08-2013, 12:43 PM   #12
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One there are no rules and in the past GM was using their professionalional drivers now they use their own development engineers. Even GM is smart enough to not advertise or compare the times. They just publish the number and let us do the rest

I can't tell you for sure or with any knowledge but it seems GM spends much more time and effort on this than Ford. So much so that GM built the Lutzring at their Milford proving grounds directly copying many of the elements from the over 10 miles on the track.
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Old 12-08-2013, 08:18 PM   #13
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No such thing as official "Ring Times"

We will see if the moderator lets this stay on here since it directly answers the OP's question.

Here's is the reply from Ford's Global Performance Vehicle Chief Engineer:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamal Hameedi

Ring times! Oh man don't even get me started on this topic. Our (my) view is that there is no such thing as an official manufacturer Ring time. The times being posted by many manufacturers are in my humble opinion akin to qualifying times being set at a race with no pre/post inspection (ie it would never happen). In the racing world - inspection/verification is a key part of the sport. In order for us to set an "official" time corner weights would have to be taken, calibration checksums need to be verified, engine power verified via chassis rolls, a hoist inspection, and probably a fuel sample taken by an independent 3rd party like a governing/sanctioning body. I would love to see this since everyone seems to be infatuated with Ring times. Having said that, I think it's really important that performance cars be judged against one another on the track - but the comparisons really need to be on the same day by a professional driver (just track condition from day to day puts another huge variable in comparisons). We have seen lap time spreads of over 3 sec with same car same driver different day at VIR. Now extrapolate that to a track with a 7 min lap time. Motor Trend collects cars on the same day and puts a professional driver behind the wheel - not journalists whose driving ability puts yet another huge variable in lap times - and compares vehicles same driver same day. I think they do it correctly. So does Auto Motor und Sport in Germany.

The reason we test at the Ring is because it is a fantastic venue for doing vehicle dynamics work. You get so much different content in terms of turns, elevation, etc that you would need to visit 5 different tracks to duplicate it. It's also a chance for our North American vehicle dynamics guys to cross pollinate with our Team RS guys since we are all one group now. Team RS gets a chance to offer feedback on the RWD cars and the SVT guys offer perspective on the FWD cars. That's really powerful and worth spending the money to send cars and engineers over there. Renting the Ring exclusively ($$$$$!) to make a video - not so much. I'd rather put that money into the car.

I know this isn't what the internet bench racers want to hear. As soon as there is a standard for measuring lap times - our performance vehicles will be the first in line to get tested. Until then - it's just marketing and a total free for all. They are very cool to watch though. Lol. The 2013/2014 GT500 sold just fine without a published Ring time (who could have imagined!). Actually we spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to make more GT500s due to high demand. I've seen other performance cars with published Ring times being offered with incentives and cash on the hood (again - who could have imagined!). So I sleep pretty well at night. And spend my days (and nights) working on the next slayer vs. worrying about Ring times.

Hopefully this gives you some perspective on where our minds are at wrt Ring times.
See you at SEMA!

Jamal
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Old 12-08-2013, 08:23 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by 74z28 View Post
We will see if the moderator lets this stay on here since it directly answers the OP's question.

Here's is the reply from Ford's Global Performance Vehicle Chief Engineer:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamal Hameedi

Ring times! Oh man don't even get me started on this topic. Our (my) view is that there is no such thing as an official manufacturer Ring time. The times being posted by many manufacturers are in my humble opinion akin to qualifying times being set at a race with no pre/post inspection (ie it would never happen). In the racing world - inspection/verification is a key part of the sport. In order for us to set an "official" time corner weights would have to be taken, calibration checksums need to be verified, engine power verified via chassis rolls, a hoist inspection, and probably a fuel sample taken by an independent 3rd party like a governing/sanctioning body. I would love to see this since everyone seems to be infatuated with Ring times. Having said that, I think it's really important that performance cars be judged against one another on the track - but the comparisons really need to be on the same day by a professional driver (just track condition from day to day puts another huge variable in comparisons). We have seen lap time spreads of over 3 sec with same car same driver different day at VIR. Now extrapolate that to a track with a 7 min lap time. Motor Trend collects cars on the same day and puts a professional driver behind the wheel - not journalists whose driving ability puts yet another huge variable in lap times - and compares vehicles same driver same day. I think they do it correctly. So does Auto Motor und Sport in Germany.

The reason we test at the Ring is because it is a fantastic venue for doing vehicle dynamics work. You get so much different content in terms of turns, elevation, etc that you would need to visit 5 different tracks to duplicate it. It's also a chance for our North American vehicle dynamics guys to cross pollinate with our Team RS guys since we are all one group now. Team RS gets a chance to offer feedback on the RWD cars and the SVT guys offer perspective on the FWD cars. That's really powerful and worth spending the money to send cars and engineers over there. Renting the Ring exclusively ($$$$$!) to make a video - not so much. I'd rather put that money into the car.

I know this isn't what the internet bench racers want to hear. As soon as there is a standard for measuring lap times - our performance vehicles will be the first in line to get tested. Until then - it's just marketing and a total free for all. They are very cool to watch though. Lol. The 2013/2014 GT500 sold just fine without a published Ring time (who could have imagined!). Actually we spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to make more GT500s due to high demand. I've seen other performance cars with published Ring times being offered with incentives and cash on the hood (again - who could have imagined!). So I sleep pretty well at night. And spend my days (and nights) working on the next slayer vs. worrying about Ring times.

Hopefully this gives you some perspective on where our minds are at wrt Ring times.
See you at SEMA!

Jamal
I have to agree completely with this statement.
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Old 12-08-2013, 08:55 PM   #15
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...who really freakn' cares what Ford says...they introduced the design so far in advance it makes me wonder if they know what they are doing. It's beyond marketing comprehension. Perhaps some grandson or nephew of Henry Ford has been given the task just because. Hahaaa.
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Old 12-08-2013, 09:12 PM   #16
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...who really freakn' cares what Ford says...they introduced the design so far in advance it makes me wonder if they know what they are doing. It's beyond marketing comprehension. Perhaps some grandson or nephew of Henry Ford has been given the task just because. Hahaaa.
You do realize that it will be about the same time frame the Camaro was introduced til it hit showrooms according to when they say it will be available.
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Old 12-09-2013, 07:55 AM   #17
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IMO the only way to test the vehicle would be to take a vehicle directly off a dealer’s lot, no factory tuned ringers. Allow the manufacturer to choose the driver for their vehicle, no sandbagging. Test the vehicles on the same day, same conditions.
Other than this you really have no idea what you are getting. This would allow for no excuses.
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Old 12-09-2013, 11:20 AM   #18
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McLaren did not release their P1 time either probably because it was not as fast as the Porsche 918

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Old 12-09-2013, 11:35 AM   #19
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McLaren did not release their P1 time either probably because it was not as fast as the Porsche 918

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Old 12-09-2013, 01:33 PM   #20
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How many times is this dead horse going to be beaten? Pun intended. Ford has never released times, period. It's not like they were doing it, then GM bettered the times, and they stopped. They have never done it. They probably never will, even if they do run a faster time. With the lax controls over timing, if they did do a time and it beat the Z/28, the time would be scrutinized endlessly looking for discrepancies.

Simple fact is that the course is a more cost effective way to get massive amounts of data on handling and performance than it is to build an 11 mile track here.

Oh, and why unveil the car so early? How many threads are there on a Camaro specific site discussing the car to DEATH? It is generating a ton of publicity well in advance of the car going on sale. The 'net is ablaze with speculation and rumor and debate, none of which will stop until magazines and customers get their grubby hands on a car.
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Old 12-09-2013, 02:32 PM   #21
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Forget ring times........let's just end this on the streets of mexico...
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Old 12-09-2013, 02:47 PM   #22
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The Mustang GT is not intended to compete with the Z/28, but rather the SS. What does this mean in relation to the Z/28? The rumor is a track oriented Mustang will come out later. Hopefully Ford will keep the price out of the crazy range. Ring times are fun to compare, but it is not a very representative race track. So really the GT only has to beat 8:20. Do you doubt it will?
This is the best post in this thread.

I do not doubt for a second the new GT can beat 8:20.....
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Old 12-09-2013, 03:30 PM   #23
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How many times is this dead horse going to be beaten? Pun intended. Ford has never released times, period. It's not like they were doing it, then GM bettered the times, and they stopped. They have never done it. They probably never will, even if they do run a faster time. With the lax controls over timing, if they did do a time and it beat the Z/28, the time would be scrutinized endlessly looking for discrepancies.

Simple fact is that the course is a more cost effective way to get massive amounts of data on handling and performance than it is to build an 11 mile track here.

Oh, and why unveil the car so early? How many threads are there on a Camaro specific site discussing the car to DEATH? It is generating a ton of publicity well in advance of the car going on sale. The 'net is ablaze with speculation and rumor and debate, none of which will stop until magazines and customers get their grubby hands on a car.
This^
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Old 12-09-2013, 04:02 PM   #24
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GM pushes all around performance and shows lap times, g-force readings, 0-60, slalom speeds and also 1/4 times to name a few things.

Ford says it will not publish 'ring times but was actively pushing the LS and the GT500 with various dignitary professional drivers at VIR, Laguna Seca, to name just a few. They also had one of their press event at a drag strip boasting how fast it was in the 1/4 mile.

It's what they do and I'm fine with it but do not say you do not think that the other is not important enough not to release when it says a lot about how well your car can handle.

We all know how the lightning lap times bore out, don't we.

Yes track times are one thing but real world driving dynamics are the results of a properly sorted out chassis for which GM lately has been unequaled in their pursuit in achieving.
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Old 12-09-2013, 08:16 PM   #25
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...GM is very specific in the numbers is releases, and has the testing to back it up. They are scientific in performance results, and I am sure they can back it up if necessary. Theres no fuzzy math with GM....
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