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Old 03-19-2008, 05:36 PM   #101
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They are putting out the 4 cyl so we can have the V8. Make sense?
They are gonna sell those to people so the camaro even can stay around.

The word PREMIUM doesnt mean anything.
So what, they used the wrong word
He is just saying it will cost more than the mustang but you will get more for it.
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Old 03-19-2008, 05:40 PM   #102
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Either way the point is I think I agree with whom ever said that putting a 4 cylinder engine in a Camaro is an insult. On one hand you guys and FBodFather talk about tradition and joy of owning a Camaro..... well that all just went down the drain. How proud could you possibly be of having a 4 cylinder 'muscle car'?

What happened to the rumbling tradition of the good ole regular V8 or V6 engine?

A lot of you point out the potential of 4 and 6 cylinder engines.... I agree, but then why wouldn't a go buy my self a schnazzy car that is meant to have a 4 cylinder. This is like the ricer thing....trying to be a Camaro...that really isnt.

I mean are you joking me with all this. And whats the premium pricing all of a sudden? What happened to competitive. I think everyone agrees that paying more for the Camaro is viable given its a better product....but the idea is to be 'competitive' not premium...... I think it's about time the Fbodfather chime in and clear things up? It would me much appreciated.

The sad part about this is..... I think all of its actually true and it really will define the future of cars in general let alone muscle cars.

I suppose im done "having the faith'..... another couple months if there is no real concrete info I think im just gunna have to buy a base line vette or more likely a mustang gt or saleen i guess. I mean i dont wanna pay 40 grand plus for a 400 horse Camaro.

Its a sad day today.
This pretty much sums up what I think as well. Lets just cross our fingers and hope that Lutz is a blabbering douche. I havn't lost ALL my faith but the car's name has lost some credibility.

Times change.
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Old 03-19-2008, 05:41 PM   #103
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I'd love to have a 4 cyl turbo Camaro. Please build it!!!!!

I'd buy one! I don't mind if it's the base model.
It would look great next to my suburban.
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Old 03-19-2008, 05:41 PM   #104
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Okay, now that Bob Lutz has opened this can of worms on everyone, we need fbodfather to clearify some things RIGHT NOW, before people start jumping off bridges:

The price thing scares me, Scott..... why is Bob talking premium content over Mustang? There are MANY features you might throw on to the Camaro as standard equipment that you may think we want to be "premuim" that most of us could care less about. I LOVE the fact you are going to make the interior higher quality, but let people choose if they want 500 color gauges or twin bun warmers. Don't make that stuff standard just to boost the sticker price and hence consider the car "preeeeeeemium (in a snobish voice with my nose turned up)". It's a Camaro, not a Cadillac.

If you are considering the turbo'd 4, which coincidentally has 260 hp, and the DI'd 3.6 tuned down to 260 hp, why on earth would anyone consider the 4? The difference in fuel economy will be negligable at best. Unless you have some true raw data from tests that show the turbo 4 getting at least 5 mpg better overall than the 3.6, there is no reason to opt for the turbo 4. I'll buy a Sky Redline if I want that engine, thank you.

Please Scott, elaborate on what Mr. Lutz seems to have opened up.

I don't know if it's bad or good. Help us out here.
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Old 03-19-2008, 05:44 PM   #105
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Quote:
The price thing scares me, Scott..... why is Bob talking premium content over Mustang? There are MANY features you might throw on to the Camaro as standard equipment that you may think we want to be "premuim" that most of us could care less about. I LOVE the fact you are going to make the interior higher quality, but let people choose if they want 500 color gauges or twin bun warmers.
On a similar note, I want to know how GM is going to take the "premium" argument to market in light of the new Hyundai Genesis Coupe. The thing has a very nice interior (at least based on the photo) a 306hp V6 that will undercut the V8 Camaro to say nothing of the V6, and will have something like 8 months lead in the market.

The Mustang is heading for an overhaul too, and the rumblings I'm hearing have a significant interior upgrade as part of that mid-life enhancement. It's not like the competition is sitting still.
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Old 03-19-2008, 05:45 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Jose_The_Great_Cuervo View Post
Lutz is a blabbering douche.
He kind of comes across that way. Especially after the whole "global warming is a crock of sh@t" comment he made that later Rick Wagoner glossed over and said "that's the opinion of our vice chairman, not GM". I think when you're Lutz's age talking is something you do a lot of (with respect I say that).
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Old 03-19-2008, 05:47 PM   #107
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Some of you guys are sad. WAKE UP!!!! GAS WILL BE AT $4.00 A GAL!!!! A t4 or a v6 camaro is not the end of the world you are still getting a v8
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Old 03-19-2008, 05:50 PM   #108
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First off, don't sell that little 2.0L turbo engine short. I would never buy one, but it's still 260HP! That's a lot of power, guys. I've been impressed by stock Solstice's, they are pretty quick.

What I found most interesting about this article is that they are scrapping plans for a "low-priced, entry-level Camaro". I think this is good news, as it will further distance the new Camaro from the stigma of being a cheap car. GM may sell a few less Camaro's, but the integrity of the model being higher quality than the competition will be protected. It's all part of the plan to make people realize this is a completely NEW and much more refined Camaro. I think GM is doing the Camaro fan a huge favor by making the car a little more appealing to the core fan base (us!), even if they are limiting its appeal to other demographics a little.

Thankfully, I don't foresee many elderly people driving Camaro's. Wish I could say the same for Mustangs. :(
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Old 03-19-2008, 05:58 PM   #109
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There is NO WAY the 3.6 DI V6 will have 260 if that's what the ECOTECH will have. 300+ I'm in.
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Last edited by Scotsman; 03-19-2008 at 09:27 PM.
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Old 03-19-2008, 06:00 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by chris007 View Post
Some of you guys are sad. WAKE UP!!!! GAS WILL BE AT $4.00 A GAL!!!! A t4 or a v6 camaro is not the end of the world you are still getting a v8
Sanity at last....

Oh and

Quote:
Either way the point is I think I agree with whom ever said that putting a 4 cylinder engine in a Camaro is an insult. On one hand you guys and FBodFather talk about tradition and joy of owning a Camaro..... well that all just went down the drain. How proud could you possibly be of having a 4 cylinder 'muscle car'?

What happened to the rumbling tradition of the good ole regular V8 or V6 engine?

A lot of you point out the potential of 4 and 6 cylinder engines.... I agree, but then why wouldn't a go buy my self a schnazzy car that is meant to have a 4 cylinder. This is like the ricer thing....trying to be a Camaro...that really isnt.

I mean are you joking me with all this. And whats the premium pricing all of a sudden? What happened to competitive. I think everyone agrees that paying more for the Camaro is viable given its a better product....but the idea is to be 'competitive' not premium...... I think it's about time the Fbodfather chime in and clear things up? It would me much appreciated.

The sad part about this is..... I think all of its actually true and it really will define the future of cars in general let alone muscle cars.

I suppose im done "having the faith'..... another couple months if there is no real concrete info I think im just gunna have to buy a base line vette or more likely a mustang gt or saleen i guess. I mean i dont wanna pay 40 grand plus for a 400 horse Camaro.

Its a sad day today.
Uh Ive always said i could care less about tradition.. again I don't care if they throw in a 2 cyl in it.. I won't buy it. I will just get my V8 and keep telling people to put the car to the track to backup their claims. Its like owning a V6 mustang and bragging about the GT500... Your just mentally 5 with the "who's better" unless your driving it.

And on the price sky is falling side of it... They will price it competivly with the mustang. Period. Nobody ever said it would be less... but lets not exagerate to serveral to multiple thousands of $.

Freak when you get the offical prices until then its just panic on anyones part..
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Old 03-19-2008, 06:01 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by DerScotsman View Post
There is NJ WAY the 3.6 DI V6 will have 260 if that's what the ECOTECH will have. 300+ I'm in.
Yeah, I'm confused..... according to the article, the V6 used will be a detuned version of the DI'd 3.6 in the CTS. But why detune the DI'd 3.6 when they can just use the non-DI'd 3.6 and get the same horsepower?

Jesus Bob!!!!! You've really thrown us a curveball here!!!!!!
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Old 03-19-2008, 06:08 PM   #112
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Times are changing. If you expected to never see a 4banger Camaro again, you were fooling yourself, frankly.

I stress to you: Do not underestimate this car simply because it will include a 4 cyllinder engine in it's lineup.

The V6, and the V8 will MORE than meet the needs of everyone here. And they will be prices close the the stang's version of such models. so a 300hp V6 for ~22-23k. Are you really gonna complain about that? Really? Why worry about a 4 cyllinder edition that you wouldn't buy anyways?

The inclusion of an I4 does NOT diminish the car's muscle/pony/sports car status. If anything, it enhances it. No, hear me out: What other sports car (of the three) could appeal to those who want a 4? None. This is a step up on the competition as much as it is a step down in some of your minds. It will assist the Camaro's sales, so that you and I can have our V8's.

There is much more to be gained by this revelation that not.

Please, don't worry. This is one of those times where you are really tested in your ability to keep the faith. From all the way up to Rick Wagoner, people in GM are as excited as us about this car. They WILL NOT fail us.
I agree. not at all does this make the camaro any less of a muscle car. This way, when people buy more of the 4 and 6 cylinder versions to save gas, there will be more V8's availible for those who dont care about gas and want raw horsepower. Let them put a 4 in it. Just means more V8s for me.
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Old 03-19-2008, 06:11 PM   #113
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WOW, this one is going nuts. I think everyone needs to calm down and for a multitude of reasones. Like has been said, they arent making you buy a 4cyl car.....Its not destroying any heritage or tradition because the Camaro has had a four-banger before. It also shouldnt be a real big suprise because that they are gonna offer multiple lower level engines(non-V8s) nor should it be a cause anyone to wanna scream blasphemy since the only years that Chevy sold more V8 than base Camaros was during the IROC frenzy in 85-88.

I like several others are vey happy that they are planning on installing the LNF(2.0 turbo) into the Camaro as the base engine. Its so far superior to the 60deg OHV engines that its not even funny. I wouldve been pissed if they put a 3.5/3.9 in the Camaro.

Now lets get to the power issue. This engine makes 260hp @5300rpm, and 260ftlbs @ 2000rpm. No its not a typo. thats TWO HUNDRED SIXTY pounds of torque at 2,000rpm. So it actually makes MORE torque than the 3.6L LY7(253ftlbs), and it loses the hp race by only 3. More important is HOW the LNF delivers its power. There is 260ftlbs of torque available from 2,000rpm ALL THE WAY to the horsepower peak of 5300rpm. Max torque from 2,000-5,300.
The 3.6L cant claim that.

As for lacking power in general....Well the LNF Sky's and Solsti' are putting down 240's to the GROUND. Thats only about 10hp less than a stock LT1.

The ECO's also have a great aftermarket whereas the 3.6L's.....well, dont.

The ECO also responds well to mods, and has extremely high potential, you can get over 300hp at the crank from just a handheld tuner!!!!

The ECOTEC engine itself is good to about 550hp with a simple rod/piston upgrade.

Solstice guys are getting 20+hp from intercooler upgrades.


I see the inclusion of the ECOTEC brand in the new Camaro as a great thing, now instead of only having one engine worth upgrading(the V8) and therefore having a hefty initial purchase price if your looking to be able easily modify your car, we now have two. This I feel is going to make the Camaro appealing to MANY more people, especially if GM campaigns a base Camaro in the Drift series, or offers "tuner" type cars with limited options, designed to be blank slates for the customizing companies out there or setup like the "Club Sport" Solstices for SCCA racing, I can see the LNF F's becoming very popular, and doing well in a class like G-stock Solo by destroying V6 Mustangs and 4Th gen F's

Since having our 3rd car cost 30k is out of the question, I can see myself driving a Camaro that goes PSSHHHHHHT. and being perfectly happy about it.
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Old 03-19-2008, 06:12 PM   #114
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Last week I was under the impression that the Camaro will be priced with the Mustang, that the V6 will have 300hp, that a turbo was going into the cobalt. Today I find the Camaro will cost more, excuse me, will be at a premium compared to the Mustang, the V6 just lost 40hp, and the turbo has entered the Camaro.

What next? Dare I say it???????????????
























PREPO HEADLIGHTS ARE STAYING???????????


After reading this thread, I'm sure GM could **** this up some more....they're on a good start.
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Old 03-19-2008, 06:13 PM   #115
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He didn't completely drop it. He said it will be more, and that's nothing new. If you're thinking thousands more...your insane (and if that's the truth...well, so's GM.) But ~$1000 more for an EXTREMELY superior car. That's not unreasonable to me.
I agree. I don't think a Camaro will be $5,000 more than a comparably priced Mustang. That would be suicide and GM knows it. However, considering the full independent suspension, better interior quality and components, upgraded wheel packages (20"+), etc., I think Lutz was just preparing the public for the bottom line: nice options cost more money. I don't think this is anything we should be concerned with, and I don't think it's anything most people weren't prepared to hear anyway. And these options aren't even available with the Mustang or Challenger anyway!

Getting back to the 4-cylinder turbo motor....I can definitely understand how some people find this engine to be "un-American". It's got small displacement and a power adding system usually only found in European and Japanese vehicles. American muscle has usually been the opposite: large naturally aspirated displacement. I would prefer GM not release a 4-cyl turbo, because it's automatically associated with the ricer crowd, but if it's necessary to keep the Camaro alive, then so be it. I wouldn't want to own one, but it wouldn't be any worse than a 210HP V6, right? That's what the Mustang is offering in their base model.

Just keep the faith, guys. Like I said earlier, I am happy to hear the Camaro will not be a "cheap" car anymore, that can only help its reputation and status...and I'm pretty sure that it will still be priced about the same as a COMPARABLE Mustang. But just remember, there will be no Mustang or Challenger that is comparable to this car!
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Old 03-19-2008, 06:14 PM   #116
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The only thing I have to say is that I'm NOT buying 4 or 6 for my new car! 4 cyl just sucks!
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Old 03-19-2008, 06:15 PM   #117
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Camaro's Korean cousin






Camaro's Korean cousin
Set for public debut at the New York Auto show in two days, press photos of the yet to be revealed Hyundai Genesis Coupe have leaked. Sent to us as a tip (thanks Evan), the photos were found over at MyRide.com who added these pictures to an old article from the Genesis Coupe Concept debut in Los Angeles last year.

If the new Genesis sedan is an indicator of things to come, the Genesis Coupe, as the Tiburon replacement, will be a far superior car with greater quality, performance and driving dynamics. With a rear wheel drive platform and the entry level engine as a 2.0 liter turbo producing 215hp, the Genesis Coupe is off to a great start. But Hyundai is out for blood and takes it a bit further with a 3.8 liter V6 making approximately 310hp. As a result, the Genesis Coupe is going to get a lot of attention in New York and it's no surprise why.

Awww. Look. It's next to a Mustang. I wonder what it will look like next to the Camaro???
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Old 03-19-2008, 06:26 PM   #118
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"3.8 liter V6 making approximately 310hp"

Wow, if a this and a Caddy w/ a V6 can produce that much hp then I don't see why the Camaro can't ATLEAST match it...
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Old 03-19-2008, 06:26 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Maven View Post
Since having our 3rd car cost 30k is out of the question, I can see myself driving a Camaro that goes PSSHHHHHHT. and being perfectly happy about it.
I second that remark. If the base model is priced low enough. It would be the a steal!!! I would love to have a low priced RWD sports car with the great looks of a Camaro.

What do you think about.....
$24k 4 cylinder turbo_____260hp
$32k DI V6_____________306hp
$40k V8________________400hp
$50k Supercharged V8____500hp
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Old 03-19-2008, 06:29 PM   #120
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awesome news... since i may have to wait an extra year or two... i'll hope they come out with a real GT500 destroyer shortly after
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Old 03-19-2008, 06:29 PM   #121
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I'm all for selling more Camaros. I understand economics, business, etc. If the I4 got 45 mpg, the v6 got 28 mph and the v8 got let's say 18mpg, I could completely understand the business case. Additionally, if the I4 Camaro was $18,000, the v6 Camaro was $23,000 and the base v8 was $28,000, again I could understand the business case.

There are problems with both of the above, the fuel economy on the I4 (as noted in 1 or maybe 2 previous posts) is not that much better than the v6. I'm guessing on the second one because we have no knowledge on price, but I don't see the I4 undercutting the v6 that much by price.

And that's why I want to hurl when they mention putting a 4 cylinder in the new Camaro. Yes, I do remember the Iron Dukes. And yes I know the turbo 4 only makes 15 hp less than my LT1 so I know it's a hot little motor. I like that motor in the Cobalt, HHR, Solstice etc. It just doesn't work for me in a Camaro. Just my opinion.
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Old 03-19-2008, 06:29 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Sweeper View Post
I second that remark. If the base model is priced low enough. It would be the a steal!!! I would love to have a low priced RWD sports car with the great looks of a Camaro.

What do you think about.....
$24k 4 cylinder turbo_____260hp
$32k DI V6_____________306hp
$40k V8________________400hp
$50k Supercharged V8____500hp
I prefer.....
$24k 4 cylinder turbo____260hp > FE1 suspension, 5spd Auto or Manual
$28k DI V6_____________306hp > FE1 suspension, FE3 optional, 6spd auto or manual
$31k V8_______________430hp > FE3 suspension, 6spd auto or manual, better brakes
$42k Supercharged V8____550hp >FE5 Suspension, 6spd manual, Brembo(iron or carbon) brakes
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Old 03-19-2008, 06:34 PM   #123
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You guys are rediculous. Has everyone forgot about the 4 cylinder camaro's of the 80's. It didn't disgrace the car's rep then, why will it now. In the 80's we were getting over the gas crunch and the ecomony sucked (just like today) and the I4 only lasted a few years. I think a 4 is a great idea. It will help with the fleet mpg's and lower the price for non-enthusiasts. WE ARE STILL GETTING THE V8, whats the big deal. Yeah, maybe ricers will buy the I-4 turbo, but that means more sales insuring the future of the camaro. The more people this car appeals to the better. The camaro has to adapt and evolve to survive. Let's not forget that the car went on hiautus because it didn't evolve. All of you that are upset that the camaro can be offered with a 4 are obsured. Go buy a turbo cobalt and get jelous when I blow past in my V8 fifth gen.
Completely agree, not only that but the I4 will get alot more people to buy camaro and that way GM won't cut production again.
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Old 03-19-2008, 06:35 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by Sweeper View Post
I second that remark. If the base model is priced low enough. It would be the a steal!!! I would love to have a low priced RWD sports car with the great looks of a Camaro.

What do you think about.....
$24k 4 cylinder turbo_____260hp
$32k DI V6_____________306hp
$40k V8________________400hp
$50k Supercharged V8____500hp
Try this on .. its more likely the closer to the real thing..

$19k 4 cylinder turbo_____260hp
$24k DI V6_____________306hp
$32k V8________________400hp
$40k Supercharged V8____500hp
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Old 03-19-2008, 06:37 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by diarmadhi View Post
Try this on .. its more likely the closer to the real thing..

$19k 4 cylinder turbo_____260hp
$24k DI V6_____________306hp
$32k V8________________400hp
$40k Supercharged V8____500hp
That would make sense. And then I wouldn't complain about a 4 cylinder.
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