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Old 03-20-2008, 02:47 AM   #1
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Exclamation Continued: Lutz mentions engine options for Camaro -- 4 cylinder turbo a possibility

This is what Scott has to say about Lutz's comments from -- http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3269


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fbodfather View Post
CALM DOWN..........................

Until you've been inundated with the media (which isn't a bad thing....) you can't understand what happens during an 'interview'

.......a lot of what was said today was taken out of context.

We aren't completely stupid....the new Camaro MUST be priced competitively............


A premium could be as little as $50..................

4 cylinder?

Well........here's an interesting fact: The Federal government passed a LAW...but they have NOT written the rules...........so we know that we have to hit 35mpg as an average by 2020.........BUT --- no one knows the route -- or what the rules are...........

You can BET that EVERYONE in the industry is looking at alternative powertrains..........


Meanwhile........the 4 cylinder isn't in the 'official' plan at this point in time....so CALM DOWN....................
Now that we have some context and insight behind Lutz's words straight from Scott's mouth, hopefully we can continue this discussion in a mature fashion (unlike parts of the other thread). Please keep the posts constructive, mature and on-topic, or it may be removed. Post whoring will also be deleted. Thanks.
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Old 03-20-2008, 03:30 AM   #2
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If you plan on getting a V8, get a v8 and just chill.
If you plan on buying the v6, get a v6 and be happy.
If you were thinking about a v6 and now might want a 4 cyl Turbo, that's great too.
If you think the 4 cylinder camaro engine is a disgrace because no other pony car has had a 4 cyl, look at the 80's mustangs.

If you are concerned about the "preimum price" comment, let's wait and see if this is elaborated on within a few months. We'll know all the important information around fall when the Challenger is released because GM wants to let the public know that they have a superior product. If at that time you want to whine and bitch and complain, feel free.

As for me, I've set one of my life's goals to be owning a car with power, as well as having a '69 camaro RS/SS as my uncle had one. I have never seen it, but I've always wanted a muscle car for the V8 rumble and I want to be able to own a car that others can envy and that I can drag or pull on people almost at will.

The 5th Gen Camaro kills both these birds with one stone. This is one of my dream cars. If the "premium price" means I'm going to have to shell out 40k or more for the car of my dreams, I will just walk away. I will not buy a v6 because that's not what my life's goal is to own. I want the top, most powerful v8 I can get, but I'm not going to screw up my life trying to pay off a car loan that will cost me more than a down payment for a house. My dreams will be shattered but I won't be freaking out. I will keep the faith until official information is released, and I hope with all my heart that GM will make me proud and my dream a reality.
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Old 03-20-2008, 03:35 AM   #3
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I know fbodfather said a premium can be any price higher than the Mustang's, and we've long suspected that, but I still just get the feeling that the price premium will be pretty significant. I hope I'm wrong, but to be honest that is just the vibe I get.

I'm still perplexed by the 260 hp rating of the V6. That is the rating of the non-DI version, but the one we saw in the early pre-pro pics showed all the signs of being DI, and it doesn't make much sense to detune a DI engine to achieve the power levels that the non-DI Malibu engine gets. Again I hope it is just an error on the reporter's part. Is it possible for someone in GM to at least say it was an error, even if you can't give the official power level?

One interesting thing is the 2 V6 issue is cleared up. We have it clearly stated now that originally they did intend for 2 V6s, but now they only have 1. Simple.

They're still using the 6.0L engine size, so maybe that wasn't a slip of the tongue. Or, as Fbodfather said, the intensity of the interview invited repeat mistakes...

Notice he says with the V6 it won't be a heavy car. Is he suggesting the V8 will make it a "heavy" car?

And I do have to say, we've figured as much all along, but it is nice to hear it put so frankly that our suspension and interior will be so much better than the Mustang's, even if it means we pay more.

I guess what I'm having trouble with is that with this interview it is so hard to tell what he's revealing as a treat, what he's overreacting about, and what he's just slipping up on.
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Old 03-20-2008, 04:10 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindz View Post
If you plan on getting a V8, get a v8 and just chill.
If you plan on buying the v6, get a v6 and be happy.
If you were thinking about a v6 and now might want a 4 cyl Turbo, that's great too.
If you think the 4 cylinder camaro engine is a disgrace because no other pony car has had a 4 cyl, look at the 80's mustangs.

If you are concerned about the "preimum price" comment, let's wait and see if this is elaborated on within a few months. We'll know all the important information around fall when the Challenger is released because GM wants to let the public know that they have a superior product. If at that time you want to whine and bitch and complain, feel free.

As for me, I've set one of my life's goals to be owning a car with power, as well as having a '69 camaro RS/SS as my uncle had one. I have never seen it, but I've always wanted a muscle car for the V8 rumble and I want to be able to own a car that others can envy and that I can drag or pull on people almost at will.

The 5th Gen Camaro kills both these birds with one stone. This is one of my dream cars. If the "premium price" means I'm going to have to shell out 40k or more for the car of my dreams, I will just walk away. I will not buy a v6 because that's not what my life's goal is to own. I want the top, most powerful v8 I can get, but I'm not going to screw up my life trying to pay off a car loan that will cost me more than a down payment for a house. My dreams will be shattered but I won't be freaking out. I will keep the faith until official information is released, and I hope with all my heart that GM will make me proud and my dream a reality.


If you don't like the idea of a 4 cylinder, don't get one. But, they are, like so many others have said, keeping our V8's alive.

GM, I hope that price doesn't go up too high. If so, there goes over 2 years of dreams, day dreams, and all around HOPE that I would own this beauty......right down the drain. One more GUARANTEED customer lost. Most likely along with many others....many, many others.

But, I'm holding strong and will continue to KEEP THE FAITH until specs and word are revealed.
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Old 03-20-2008, 04:20 AM   #5
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That other thread got out of hand fast, but as with any turboed car, a 4 cylinder turbo camaro might end up being a bit of a dark horse.

It is much easier to turn the boost up on a turbo and get some significant performance out of it, possibly for less than the base cost of the V8 and V6 models.

I'm not sure if any of that was mentioned before.


As for the premium price comment, maybe the V6 Camaro might actually be competing with the current Mustang GT (2005-2009) in both price and performance. There isn't much out about the 2010 Mustang yet.

I don't know, I always had the feeling that the Camaro was going to be generally more expensive than the Mustang for a variety of reasons. GM is putting a lot of goodies into this car, so naturally it will cost more.

It will still be a good value for what is offered, but GM is potentially offering a lot.
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Old 03-20-2008, 04:45 AM   #6
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Yeah, I don't have any problem with the engines. If the power and torque are there, with good transmissions, and they beat the competition, I don't care if they put a turbo-charged Snoopy Sno-Cone Machine under the hood (which I guess would make it a rotary ).

The dreaded "premium" comment is the one that raises my eyebrows. While I'd certainly hope that GM keeps the car priced competitively, and GM seems to be on a roll with making smart decisions lately, it wasn't too long ago that GM was trying their damnedest to be put some underwhelming cars at the magic $35K price point it seemed to love so much. A part of me is concerned about the price, as any higher than "competitive-to-a-Mustang" would pretty much put the V8 out of reach for me.

Good thing there are going to be a lot of choice for shoppers looking for RWD coupes when the Camaro debuts...I think the pressure to not mess up the pricing will be good enough to keep the cost reasonable.
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Old 03-20-2008, 05:10 AM   #7
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Having missed most of the "hooplah" (probably being asleep on this side of the world) I'm not gonna read it all - but I get the feeling we as a group jump to conclusions a little quickly and read a bit too much in to things. Until GM releases the all-important-official bits and bobs, it's still all hearsay, rumour and "pub talk".
Over here the "I-4" as you call it is king - probably 90% of cars here are 4-pots. Most - nearly all the cars I've owned have been - it's a cheap/tried/trusted/easily-tuned design - especially with a turbo on it.
Would I buy a Camaro with this in place? Um, nah... I want a V8 and there'll be one available so I couldn't care less to be honest. <shrugs>
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Old 03-20-2008, 05:36 AM   #8
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i thought i read everything . did i miss that comment made by fbodfather? i read it in Dragon's post but i never found it other than that.

fbodfather has not let any of us down yet. so untill he does (which i'm not expecting) "keep the faith"

heres to a great car at a good price.
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Old 03-20-2008, 08:00 AM   #9
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I think Dragon lifted it from another forum. As far as the drop in power from the 3.6, I assume that it was done for fuel economy. For the CTS they bumped the power up by 40 and increased the mileage at the same time. By bringing the power back down, fuel economy can rise further
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Old 03-20-2008, 08:36 AM   #10
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The turbo 4 with 260 HP will be a good car, but unfortunatly if it is like the same offerings in the Solstice GXP and Sky Redline it will not help the CAFE ratings for GM. A good 250 HP V6 will get just as good MPG as a turbo 4 and Be less expensive to build and maintain. I would pick the V6 over a 4 anyday if available. But Variety is what sells. many people want different things from a car. and the more options you have, the wider market the car will have thus sell more and keep the car a viable product..
Just my opinion.
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Old 03-20-2008, 08:51 AM   #11
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As far as the "premium" comment goes, remember Mr. Lutz did not say the Camaro would be "premium priced" but that it would have a price premium above the Mustang's. This is a VERY key difference and is, in fact, the difference between BMW pricing and a simple $500 boost over the stang's MSRP.
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Old 03-20-2008, 09:54 AM   #12
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I don't care as long as the V8 Camaro is within $1000 of the V8 Mustang. I'm not so naive as to expect a 400 hp engine for the exact price of the Mustang's 300hp, but I expect the range to be the same. I really want those 400 horses now that they've been dangled in front of me.
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Old 03-20-2008, 10:01 AM   #13
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Quote:
Notice he says with the V6 it won't be a heavy car. Is he suggesting the V8 will make it a "heavy" car?
I'm betting the fully assembled OHV V8 is the same weight or less than a DOHC DI V6. It probably won't increase the overall weight of the car as much, if at all.

It would however affect the weight balance, as the V8 is longer than the V6 and shifts its weight further towards the nose of the car.
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Old 03-20-2008, 10:16 AM   #14
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I know fbodfather said a premium can be any price higher than the Mustang's, and we've long suspected that, but I still just get the feeling that the price premium will be pretty significant. I hope I'm wrong, but to be honest that is just the vibe I get.

I'm still perplexed by the 260 hp rating of the V6. That is the rating of the non-DI version, but the one we saw in the early pre-pro pics showed all the signs of being DI, and it doesn't make much sense to detune a DI engine to achieve the power levels that the non-DI Malibu engine gets. Again I hope it is just an error on the reporter's part. Is it possible for someone in GM to at least say it was an error, even if you can't give the official power level?

One interesting thing is the 2 V6 issue is cleared up. We have it clearly stated now that originally they did intend for 2 V6s, but now they only have 1. Simple.

They're still using the 6.0L engine size, so maybe that wasn't a slip of the tongue. Or, as Fbodfather said, the intensity of the interview invited repeat mistakes...

Notice he says with the V6 it won't be a heavy car. Is he suggesting the V8 will make it a "heavy" car?

And I do have to say, we've figured as much all along, but it is nice to hear it put so frankly that our suspension and interior will be so much better than the Mustang's, even if it means we pay more.

I guess what I'm having trouble with is that with this interview it is so hard to tell what he's revealing as a treat, what he's overreacting about, and what he's just slipping up on.
I think he was trying to do the interview without revealing anything, but still not blowoff the reporter. Thats why he says "like 260 hp and the V6 won't be heavy with no mention of the v8, yes the v8 will weight more but I doubt it will be more than 100 pounds or so. Obvously sun roofs and other options will run up the weight and the price but these will not be standard nor will you be forced to buy them. I think the car will be competitive with what ford calls the premium GT and not the GT of course with an extra 100 horses above the current GT. The GT that comes out next year or when ever it is will be closer in hp
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Old 03-20-2008, 10:31 AM   #15
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I'm betting the fully assembled OHV V8 is the same weight or less than a DOHC DI V6. It probably won't increase the overall weight of the car as much, if at all.

It would however affect the weight balance, as the V8 is longer than the V6 and shifts its weight further towards the nose of the car.
I know that the LS4 weighs about the same as the supercharged 3800, but is the 3.6 aluminum or iron? Either way the V6 will weigh less but I'd imagine that they could keep the engine weights to within about 100 lbs even if it's aluminum vs aluminum. But there are also all the other comfort features that you get when you go up in trim. Better stereo, better seats, more gizmos, etc. I'm thinking it will be 3500 lbs for the V6, 3700 for the V8 since it was mentioned that the V6 will be a light car, excuse me, not heavy. In todays world, 3500 is how much midsized car weighs. So I guess that could be considered light to some, light is such a relative term to start with. That also splits the differance between the Challenger and the Mustang. I would be shocked if it weighed more than the Challenger or less than the Mustang. Each seems about equally impossible to me
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Old 03-20-2008, 10:58 AM   #16
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i have a question and maybe i missed this some where else in the conversations but i was reading and every one keeps talking about the v-8 that coming out. is chevy putting the ls2 (v-8 engine 400hp) in the car? that on the offical concept car page
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Old 03-20-2008, 11:02 AM   #17
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No LS2. It's been discontinued.
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Old 03-20-2008, 11:04 AM   #18
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what i did not know that. my bad.
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Old 03-20-2008, 11:26 AM   #19
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well... since the camaro v6 will be a higher volume seller then the cts... they detuned it for fuel economy... i doubt that the di unit would ever be detuned less then 280 i mean... lutz wanted 300 in the v6 ...and if they use the turbo motor this just wouldn't make sense... 2 motors with 260?
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Old 03-20-2008, 11:43 AM   #20
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well... since the camaro v6 will be a higher volume seller then the cts... they detuned it for fuel economy... i doubt that the di unit would ever be detuned less then 280 i mean... lutz wanted 300 in the v6 ...and if they use the turbo motor this just wouldn't make sense... 2 motors with 260?
i was thinking the same thing......i still think 300 for the V6... i see no reason to detune the V6 engine. really how much more mileage are you going to get in 20 or 40 less horsepower???? 1-2-3-4- miles to the gallon. i really don't know, so to everybody that is not a rhetorical question.
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Old 03-20-2008, 11:46 AM   #21
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I don't care as long as the V8 Camaro is within $1000 of the V8 Mustang. I'm not so naive as to expect a 400 hp engine for the exact price of the Mustang's 300hp, but I expect the range to be the same. I really want those 400 horses now that they've been dangled in front of me.

Here-Here!!!

I also agree, in a later post, that two engines with the same power doesn't make a lot of sense to me either. EH; it's all conjecture at this point anyways.
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Old 03-20-2008, 12:14 PM   #22
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Phew, this is much better. As for the price, even if its $1000 more you need to realize thats like $27500 with delivery for the base v8. Has anyone noticed that if a post seems to be more than....









about this long, you tend to skip it over or really want to unless you respect/are really interested in what they usually have to say?
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Old 03-20-2008, 12:32 PM   #23
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Phew, this is much better. As for the price, even if its $1000 more you need to realize thats like $27500 with delivery for the base v8. Has anyone noticed that if a post seems to be more than....

about this long, you tend to skip it over or really want to unless you respect/are really interested in what they usually have to say?
I like to try and make my posts longer than my sig. Hmm, I might get rid of that quote soon since there are so many others using something similar, mine will not be needed.

Anyway, I also try to seperate my posts into easy to swallow chunks rather than a long ramble. I hope that people read what I have to say. I know that I get carried away every now and then though. Typically it happens when I get going about engineering . . . must . . . resist . . . megapost . . . I think I'm fine for now.


uh oh,


this thread is going much better than the last one. I think that may have been the craziest topic I've seen since I joined up in the summer. 270 posts in under 12 hours. And most of it negative with people either complaining about what Bob Lutz said, or people complaining about the complainers. Anyhoo, I just went again
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Old 03-20-2008, 12:58 PM   #24
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^Yeah...well for a lot of us Camaro die hards, it was a two shot of bad crap...4 banger and higher prices don't mesh well together.

But, I KNOW GM heard about the mass hysteria yesterday.........like they wouldn't be expecting it. I'm sure they have VERY well paid people up there who are making these decisions.

Guys, GM won't let this Camaro fail. It will be priced within OUR range for all types of buyers...just like us. And...if, and this is a big IF, GM prices them higher than we imagined, we just won't be able to afford them. This will hurt their sales and will eventually force them to discount prices to where we can afford them.

IMO, and again, IMO, if GM prices them that much higher than the Mustang, people won't buy. The Camaro will die again in a short period.

But, as I stated last time, I have faith in GM. This will all work out fine.


And, while the topic is fresh on my mind, stop the post whoring in these threads. I had 29 threads with new posts and a single thread with 269 new posts to read last night. 25% of them were BS random posts. I didn't appreciate that nor did anyone else. And when the Admin says something, abide by it....meaning no more of that. It's a waste of peoples time. Thanks in advance, folks.
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Old 03-20-2008, 01:02 PM   #25
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this thread is going much better than the last one. I think that may have been the craziest topic I've seen since I joined up in the summer. 270 posts in under 12 hours. And most of it negative with people either complaining about what Bob Lutz said, or people complaining about the complainers. Anyhoo, I just went again
Like Tarantino's character said (in the Desperado movie) at the bar,
"It's cool Ese, it's cool....." The rush of fear has died down. I only had a problem with the word "Premium", so I take that as bad wording on Bob's part. We'll see once official data is released, until then... back to the Spy photos! Need more photos to get the blood flowing again!!!!
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Anyone that knows of a place that is making the Concept Shifter for the new Camaro. (Auto specifically) Please let me know.

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2000 on 5/21/09... It begins.....
4B00 on 6/26/09... In transit to the Cave
5000 on 7/6/09 it waits for my arrival!
1000000 on 7/10/09 The Tumbler is in the Cave!
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