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Suspension / Brakes / Chassis All suspension, brakes and chassis discussions.

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Old 11-24-2014, 10:52 AM   #1
Dan@Hotchkis
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A Quick Introduction

Hey folks, just wanted to check in to let you guys know that I'll be here on the forums quite often to post updates and let you guys know what we are doing in all things Camaro, to include product development and events.

A bit about myself:
At Hotchkis I wear more hats that I care to count, but I test drive, instruct, prototype/R&D, Test Car building/maintenance, do the road shows and events as well as monitor several forums as a "Tech Guy".
We had a lot of fun for a couple of years with our 2011 Camaro SS. I was fortunate enough to drive that car at quite a few events and it was definitely a blast! Most folks that have run events in the SoCal area have driven at events with me and know who I am and what we are all about.
I've been lurking on the forums for a couple weeks now and I'll be dropping in a couple times a day to see what everyone is up to. I look forward to seeing how everyone's projects come along!
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Old 11-24-2014, 01:45 PM   #2
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Old 11-24-2014, 02:39 PM   #3
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Old 11-24-2014, 02:56 PM   #4
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Old 11-24-2014, 06:16 PM   #5
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Old 11-28-2014, 09:43 PM   #6
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Dan,

I'm looking at suspension upgrades for my 2012 ZL1. Can you address the methodology of having the same sway bar sizes front and rear? After reading this post: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=335976 it would appear as though you would want a smaller bar in the front to reduce oversteer.

I am not an engineer, but I do "feel" my ZL1 has some room for improvement at the track. I do however, control my wallet. I am confident in the Hotchkis brand, but I want to hear about the sway bar set and the engineering and testing behind them before I spend this money.

I'm also ordering a set of lowering springs and chassis brace. The Black Friday sale is too good to miss out on.

Thanks.
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Pics of The Red Baron, 2012 ZL1 #737:
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Old 11-29-2014, 09:00 AM   #7
Dan@Hotchkis
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When we design our suspensions we generally look for the best balance in a car so that the car works really well on all surfaces. Generally speaking we have the roll rates pretty well dialed in so that we keep the front non-adjustable and the mid setting on the rear will give you the most neutrally balanced car. Go to the stiffer setting and you'll be able to induce more over steer, put it to the mid setting and you'll have a bit more shove if you aren't careful. This however is helpful across different track surfaces and disciplines/driving styles.
One thing I noticed that wasn't really mentioned in the post you linked was the focus on diameter, and not actual roll rates. When we develop a bar, there is a lot more to factor than just the thickness. Every bend, change of lever arm length and tensile/spring stiffness has to be accounted for, which is why on our site we tend to put up the percentage change as compared to stock and we can verify it through physical and virtual testing.
So with our bars that fit the FE4/5/6 cars, the math looks like this:
Specifications:
Front 32mm (1.25”)
• 45% stiffer than stock 1LE
• 100% stiffer than stock ZL1
• 135% stiffer than stock SS
Rear 32mm (1.25”) Tubular 3-Way Adjustable
• 10%, 25%, 45% stiffer than stock 1LE
• 10%, 25%, 45% stiffer than stock ZL1
• 75%, 100%, 125% stiffer than stock SS

I could probably look into our skid pad/slalom and track numbers next week if I think about it. We'll be doing R&D on 8 vehicles at Street of Willow Wed-Friday, so it'll be a bit of a busy week!
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Old 11-29-2014, 09:46 AM   #8
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couple of questions are the stiffness rates on the ss comparisons for the 2012-15 ss or prior? and for my use ,the roads are sweeping bends at best ,and occasional drag strip events would I benefit from an upgrade ?

wish they had track racing out here
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Old 11-29-2014, 11:11 AM   #9
Dan@Hotchkis
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Our 2010 and 2011 rates are:
Sport-
Lightweight 1.25” tubular front bar. 210% stiffer than stock SS
Lightweight 1” adjustable tubular rear bar +80,120,170% stiffer than stock SS

Competition-
Lightweight 1.25” tubular front bar. 210% stiffer than stock SS
Lightweight 1 3/8” adjustable tubular rear bar +500,630,800% stiffer than stock SS

As you can see, with the earlier cars are a LOT softer than the later models.

Our kits would be right up your alley. Our suspension is really designed for the driving enthusiast that wants to maximize performance without sacrificing driver comfort and good street manners. There are a lot of companies that are making kits to really make these cars come a live and are great if you want a lot of adjustment and are willing to sacrifice NVH and cruising comfort for those extra couple of tenths. Our kit is for the 95% of guys who want the car to handle great, still be able to drive through a parking lot and on the roads and still be able to hang with the 5% of guys who got the kits with all the bells and whistles.
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Old 11-29-2014, 11:20 AM   #10
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Thanks
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Old 11-29-2014, 12:32 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan@Hotchkis View Post
Specifications:
Front 32mm (1.25”)
• 45% stiffer than stock 1LE
• 100% stiffer than stock ZL1
• 135% stiffer than stock SS
Rear 32mm (1.25”) Tubular 3-Way Adjustable
• 10%, 25%, 45% stiffer than stock 1LE
• 10%, 25%, 45% stiffer than stock ZL1
• 75%, 100%, 125% stiffer than stock SS
Thanks for the response, Dan.

I saw those percentages on your web site. So, a 2012 ZL1 that is used primarily for road courses would benefit (most) by using the 10% setting, thus reducing oversteer the most? Or would it be smarter to leave the stock rear bar in place and just replace the front? And if I do that, would I be creating the opposite effect, understeer?

I'm trying to understand the differences between the settings and the effect I'll experience. I want my car to stay "flatter" in the turns and not roll over as much. I'm not sure I'm using the correct terminology, so please forgive me. I'm a sponge right now trying to gain knowledge.

And thanks for answering my questions. I don't want to bolt something under my car for show. This is for go.
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Pics of The Red Baron, 2012 ZL1 #737:
http://s203.photobucket.com/user/CGF...%20Red%20Baron
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Old 11-29-2014, 04:23 PM   #12
Dan@Hotchkis
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Our kit is designed to be a balanced unit. It's a bit harder to say than that. As you can see by the ratios and numbers provided, our kit increases the roll stiffness to elevate all the chassis' to the same level. Once you've equipped any of these cars from a V6 2010 to 2012 ZL1 to a 1LE, they'll all perform on the same level shy of shock valving.
To be honest, it seems that our kit is right in line with what you would need. Ours is a balanced kit that requires very little adjustment and it allows a driver to get out and learn how to drive their car effectively and worry less about set up and more on driving. Once you get to the point where you can out drive the car (notice I didn't say over drive) you'll be ready to move up to fully adjustable, coil over, magnetic whamper-dines or what ever it is the cool kids are running these days.
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Old 11-29-2014, 10:28 PM   #13
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Thanks again. Now that makes it interesting, but it makes sense that all 5th Gen Camaros would be on an equal level with the same kit installed. After all, they are the same car. The one difference in the ZL1 is the magnetic ride shocks/struts. (Or whatever they're classified as).

Since you sell these components separately, does it make sense to do any of this in itself, or is it a waste of time if you don't install it all at the same time? I was thinking about installing the chassis brace and the sway bars, but maybe not the lowering springs right away. If this doesn't make sense, why not offer this as a kit like you do in the 2010's? Do the springs make that much difference?
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Pics of The Red Baron, 2012 ZL1 #737:
http://s203.photobucket.com/user/CGF...%20Red%20Baron
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Old 11-30-2014, 10:50 AM   #14
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I'm going to installing a new set of wheels soon 20x10 fronts and 20x11 rears, I'll be running a 275/315 setup, I'd like to lower 1 inch all the way around, do you have suggestions or recommendations? Thanks
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Old 11-30-2014, 12:29 PM   #15
Dan@Hotchkis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZL1Dan View Post
Thanks again. Now that makes it interesting, but it makes sense that all 5th Gen Camaros would be on an equal level with the same kit installed. After all, they are the same car. The one difference in the ZL1 is the magnetic ride shocks/struts. (Or whatever they're classified as).

Since you sell these components separately, does it make sense to do any of this in itself, or is it a waste of time if you don't install it all at the same time? I was thinking about installing the chassis brace and the sway bars, but maybe not the lowering springs right away. If this doesn't make sense, why not offer this as a kit like you do in the 2010's? Do the springs make that much difference?
You can do the kit in pieces, however for maximum gains, the kit should be done together. Our kit is the same cost all apart or if you get the TVS in one shot, so making "micro kits" would just make our catalog that much more confusing. Once you have all of the bits, you'll be a happy camper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PurpleHaze View Post
I'm going to installing a new set of wheels soon 20x10 fronts and 20x11 rears, I'll be running a 275/315 setup, I'd like to lower 1 inch all the way around, do you have suggestions or recommendations? Thanks
You didn't specify your details, so assuming you have an SS, our springs will lower the car 1" on all four corners.
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Old 11-30-2014, 02:15 PM   #16
ZL1Dan

 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan@Hotchkis View Post
You can do the kit in pieces, however for maximum gains, the kit should be done together. Our kit is the same cost all apart or if you get the TVS in one shot, so making "micro kits" would just make our catalog that much more confusing. .
I respectfully disagree. Either it's a Total Vehicle System, or it isn't. I'm not asking because of the money aspect, I'm asking because of the lowering aspect. I like the ride height on my ZL1 and I'm not convinced I want to lower it. However, if you're saying it will not be effective without doing the entire installation, then I'm going to have to think about this.

BTW, what cars are you testing this week? By chance, are any of them ZL1's?
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Pics of The Red Baron, 2012 ZL1 #737:
http://s203.photobucket.com/user/CGF...%20Red%20Baron
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Old 11-30-2014, 04:02 PM   #17
Dan@Hotchkis
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For the kit to work as advertised, it is best to use our entire kit as it is a tuned and balanced package; however there are still distinct gains to be had by each piece individually. If you choose to leave the ZL1 springs on the car, you won't have the advantage of the lower roll center and increased roll/pitch/yaw resistance that the springs offer. The car will still handle much better than stock.

Off the top of my head we are testing
C7 Vette Stingray
2015 Mustang with Factory Performance Package
1965 Mustang Coupe
1969 Mustang Coupe
Focus ST
BMW 2 Series
Golf R
and possibly more. I'll post pictures!
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