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Old 03-21-2008, 09:26 PM   #1
The_Stache
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Aftermarket cooling

For the lack of a generic technical forum, Ill post this here. Remember this is for future reference, I just want to be able to use this knowledge later with the 5th gen. All the writeup below is made for a LX (Charger, 300, Challenger, Magnum). The best material is it gives part numbers and pricing as well as items like hoses and adapters.

Cooling: Engine oil, Transmission fluid, Power Steering Fluid.

Engine Oil

Is an engine oil cooler for everyone? I don't think so. If you live in a cold-weather climate I would want to see oil temps that are regularly too hot before I started thinking about one of these. Scott at the Hemi Shop told me a poor man's oil cooler is to simply change your oil right after a track day. Thats probably good enough for most folks.

The oil cooler is mounted behind and under the bumper. It gets its inrushing air supply from the lower grille on the Magnum. While not totally exposed to direct airflow thanks to the bumper, it still gets one hell of a lot, and the fact that we chose a deliberately oversized 25-row cooler works in our favor here. Why did it go behind the bumper? Because if we sat it atop the bumper as per the original plan we were worried about robbing the main cooling system of too much airflow. Also with a 25-row cooler the thing is just so large it may be this is the only place it could go, period. As it stands now, the hoses are effectively in contact with the lower plastic shroud of the fascia.

* Setrab rates their 25-row cooler at up to 46,000 btu/hr when used to cool engine oil. Internet prices range from about $215 to $245.
* Earls Performance Plumbing rates their 25-row cooler at up to 57,000 btu/hr when used to cool engine oil.
* Derale rates their 25-row coolers at 33000 GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight). No its not the same unit of measure and we can't figure out a conversion, although that is a hefty number as GVW ratings go.

My install needed a last-minute rework of the parts around the oil sandwich adapter due to an 'oops' on the parts list (the parts lists below have been corrected). We needed a swiveling elbow adapter that ran from 3/8" male NPT (to connect to the sandwich adapter) to -10 AN male. We did find Earl's part #EAR-829011ERL, but its a hard 90-degree bend, is very expensive at $66 for the needed pair and besides... it wasn't available from any supplier in the Sacramento metro area. Bob wound up figuring out a better, cheaper solution anyway. Use 3/8" NPT male to -10AN male straight adapters, and then use a -10AN female to -10AN hose end swiveling elbow. This gives the same result, is cheaper by about $20 for both fittings and, since its a sweeping bend rather than a hard 90, promotes better flow. The results are pictured below.




Note that to get the straight adapters to seat deeply enough to allow the whole assembly to clear a crossmember support thats in the way, the threads on the sandwich adapter had to be tapped out to let the straight adapters seat as deeply as possible.




Meister's variant uses the Earl's billet aluminum sandwich adapter. Now that we've seen it we know that this unit, rather than using the bi-metal spring that the Derale uses, takes advantage of a wax thermostat similar in operation to your typical engine cooling thermostat. Certainly a more sophisticated design.




Transmission Cooler

Is a transmission oil cooler for everyone? I have to say "yes". Cooler fluid is almost always going to be better than warmer, and its going to be REAL tough to make the fluid too cool. The hotter the fluid, the more wear on your tranny. Even if you don't drive hard. Even if you leave your torque management alone. Even if you have not installed a hi-stall converter, your transmission will benefit from cooler fluid. Now, thats just my opinion and you are free to disagree with me here or anywhere else. But I consider this unit as cheap insurance to put off that transmission rebuild and a required component in an enthusiast-driven automobile. This system uses a 16-row cooler.

* Setrab rates their 16-row cooler at up to 32,000 btu/hr. Internet prices are about $175.
* Earls Performance Plumbing rates their 16-row cooler at up to 37,000 btu/hr.
* Derale rates their 16-row coolers at 22000 GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight). Again not the same unit of measure and we don't have a conversion, but still a big number.

Meister's system uses the spec'd -6AN anodized elbows and braided hose.



My system uses hard stainless lines. Slick and max durable, but not even remotely economical.



Note that the transmission cooler is hooked up as a standalone and NOT in series with the existing cooler, which now sits unused. While the 16-row Earl's cooler has an enormous cooling capacity, the fact is you almost can't get your tranny fluid too cool. If you're going to go this far spend the time to go further and hook them up in series. In my own case this was an expedient of time. 160 miles from home, the clock is ticking and its the second install ever. While I want to leave no stone unturned this is one we had to leave alone. For now?
UPDATE 3/26/07: Track experience and torture testing indicates that leaving the cooler hooked up as a standalone as shown will significantly reduce engine cooling temps (i.e. water) since the transmission cooler is no longer in direct contact with the radiator. If you do not have a torque converter installed the method shown below may in fact be the best route. Hooking the coolers up in series will lower tranny temps and raise engine temps when under stress (i.e. track).





Power Steering Cooling


Is a power steering cooler for everyone? No. Unless you drive the car hard, I wouldn't worry about it. But if you do drive it hard I would worry given the experiences we have seen on the track with splitting hoses, spilled superheated fluid and blown pumps. Given that this is the cheapest cooler on the project, I'd say its well worth doing on general principles if you go for extended spirited drives with a lot of negotiated curves. If not, don't sweat it.
UPDATE 3/26/07: I've changed my mind somewhat, based in part on background discussions with knowledgeable individuals who have acknowledged that even the much beefier SRT cooling system can blow... and if it can go a 5.7 can go a heck of a lot more easily. If you drive the car hard put a cooler in. Cheap insurance.

First and foremost, this cooler is, well, its huge.



Two feet long with fins on the inside and on the outside, its cooling capabilities are bolstered simply by the fact that it holds over a quart of fluid.

Originally spec'd to go on the bottom of the bumper, directly in the lower grille's airstream, its been instead mounted up on top. Doing this requires some welding to provide the brackets necessary to affix it at this location.



The brackets have to be welded on at a slight angle. Fitment was accomplished by c-clamping the cooler to the desired location, marking with a pencil the line where the support to be bolted onto was, clamping a sized aluminum strip to this location and welding it on.



Bob says yes his ability to make nice-looking aluminum welds sucks, but it will never come off.



the cooler fits splendidly in this location, but whats missing here?



the car horns, which have been relocated to the drivers side bumper support.



For an easier install of this cooler, especially if you opt out of the oil cooler, consider doing what we originally planned: Mount this thing on the bottom of the bumper. The only modification necessary to the car or the cooler should be the removal of some of that foam insulation off the bumper bottom.



Source Link
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Old 03-22-2008, 12:14 AM   #2
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not a bad write up, but that power steering cooler is overkill. and he spent way too much on the trans cooler. you can go to the parts store and get a 16 row cooler (with electric fan) for less than 60 bucks. and it comes with the hardware to connect to your original setup
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Old 03-22-2008, 12:25 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23 View Post
not a bad write up, but that power steering cooler is overkill. and he spent way too much on the trans cooler. you can go to the parts store and get a 16 row cooler (with electric fan) for less than 60 bucks. and it comes with the hardware to connect to your original setup
Actually the SRT8's and the RT's have had numerous problems with the power steering overheating and in turn dying on the track. Its one of the major flaws with the LX's. So the power steering cooler is needed for auto-xing or its just a matter of time before it fails. On any other vehicle I would agree its overkill, but you never know. That and the PS cooler could actually be used for almost any fluid that needs heat removed(they also make a dual channel version).

Also on the parts he states in there somewhere that you can probably shop around piecemeal and save more money, this was more of a "guide" for those who wanted to try but didn't have the knowledge or concepts.
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Old 03-22-2008, 11:16 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diarmadhi View Post
Actually the SRT8's and the RT's have had numerous problems with the power steering overheating and in turn dying on the track. Its one of the major flaws with the LX's. So the power steering cooler is needed for auto-xing or its just a matter of time before it fails. On any other vehicle I would agree its overkill, but you never know. That and the PS cooler could actually be used for almost any fluid that needs heat removed(they also make a dual channel version).

Also on the parts he states in there somewhere that you can probably shop around piecemeal and save more money, this was more of a "guide" for those who wanted to try but didn't have the knowledge or concepts.


if their damn car wasnt so huge...wouldnt be so hard on the steering system...lol


then again, my first post was in regards to me thinking about a camaro. (which comes with an oil cooler, but you are better off removing it as it clogs your system)
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Quote:
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Nobody makes CamaroSpike happy. You just disgust him a little less than other people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogwinters View Post
Read that link that Spike posted, it'll tell you everything you need to know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WheelmanSS View Post
Post count is truly an accurate measure of how cool someone is on the Internet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Norris View Post
I piss excellence
and fart awesomeness
Quote:
Originally Posted by BowtieGuy View Post
Nobody makes CamaroSpike happy. You just disgust him a little less than other people.
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Old 03-24-2008, 04:28 PM   #5
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I’ve never liked oil coolers. It seems to me that either it retains a quart (or so) of oil that you can’t change, or it drains when you shut down and you don’t have any pressure until it refills. And then there is the possibility of leaks.

My old Alfa Romeo had a huge, finned, aluminum oil pan which probably cooled as well without all the bother. I hope someone builds something like that for the 5th gen, if it even needs one.
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Old 03-24-2008, 05:28 PM   #6
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I agree with what I'm reading: engine oil, probably not; tranny oil, YES; power steering, possibly...

I have two 24K B&M Supercoolers on my Z and those babies keep my tranny less than 180* after runs at the track.

My brother had power steering heating issues with his Z, even with the OEM cooler. It's not the first time I've heard, but this was a nice write-up.

Great job and very valuable.
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Old 01-11-2010, 05:40 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diarmadhi View Post
For the lack of a generic technical forum, Ill post this here. Remember this is for future reference, I just want to be able to use this knowledge later with the 5th gen. All the writeup below is made for a LX (Charger, 300, Challenger, Magnum). The best material is it gives part numbers and pricing as well as items like hoses and adapters.

Cooling: Engine oil, Transmission fluid, Power Steering Fluid.

Engine Oil

Is an engine oil cooler for everyone? I don't think so. If you live in a cold-weather climate I would want to see oil temps that are regularly too hot before I started thinking about one of these. Scott at the Hemi Shop told me a poor man's oil cooler is to simply change your oil right after a track day. Thats probably good enough for most folks.

The oil cooler is mounted behind and under the bumper. It gets its inrushing air supply from the lower grille on the Magnum. While not totally exposed to direct airflow thanks to the bumper, it still gets one hell of a lot, and the fact that we chose a deliberately oversized 25-row cooler works in our favor here. Why did it go behind the bumper? Because if we sat it atop the bumper as per the original plan we were worried about robbing the main cooling system of too much airflow. Also with a 25-row cooler the thing is just so large it may be this is the only place it could go, period. As it stands now, the hoses are effectively in contact with the lower plastic shroud of the fascia.

* Setrab rates their 25-row cooler at up to 46,000 btu/hr when used to cool engine oil. Internet prices range from about $215 to $245.
* Earls Performance Plumbing rates their 25-row cooler at up to 57,000 btu/hr when used to cool engine oil.
* Derale rates their 25-row coolers at 33000 GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight). No its not the same unit of measure and we can't figure out a conversion, although that is a hefty number as GVW ratings go.

My install needed a last-minute rework of the parts around the oil sandwich adapter due to an 'oops' on the parts list (the parts lists below have been corrected). We needed a swiveling elbow adapter that ran from 3/8" male NPT (to connect to the sandwich adapter) to -10 AN male. We did find Earl's part #EAR-829011ERL, but its a hard 90-degree bend, is very expensive at $66 for the needed pair and besides... it wasn't available from any supplier in the Sacramento metro area. Bob wound up figuring out a better, cheaper solution anyway. Use 3/8" NPT male to -10AN male straight adapters, and then use a -10AN female to -10AN hose end swiveling elbow. This gives the same result, is cheaper by about $20 for both fittings and, since its a sweeping bend rather than a hard 90, promotes better flow. The results are pictured below.




Note that to get the straight adapters to seat deeply enough to allow the whole assembly to clear a crossmember support thats in the way, the threads on the sandwich adapter had to be tapped out to let the straight adapters seat as deeply as possible.




Meister's variant uses the Earl's billet aluminum sandwich adapter. Now that we've seen it we know that this unit, rather than using the bi-metal spring that the Derale uses, takes advantage of a wax thermostat similar in operation to your typical engine cooling thermostat. Certainly a more sophisticated design.




Transmission Cooler

Is a transmission oil cooler for everyone? I have to say "yes". Cooler fluid is almost always going to be better than warmer, and its going to be REAL tough to make the fluid too cool. The hotter the fluid, the more wear on your tranny. Even if you don't drive hard. Even if you leave your torque management alone. Even if you have not installed a hi-stall converter, your transmission will benefit from cooler fluid. Now, thats just my opinion and you are free to disagree with me here or anywhere else. But I consider this unit as cheap insurance to put off that transmission rebuild and a required component in an enthusiast-driven automobile. This system uses a 16-row cooler.

* Setrab rates their 16-row cooler at up to 32,000 btu/hr. Internet prices are about $175.
* Earls Performance Plumbing rates their 16-row cooler at up to 37,000 btu/hr.
* Derale rates their 16-row coolers at 22000 GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight). Again not the same unit of measure and we don't have a conversion, but still a big number.

Meister's system uses the spec'd -6AN anodized elbows and braided hose.



My system uses hard stainless lines. Slick and max durable, but not even remotely economical.



Note that the transmission cooler is hooked up as a standalone and NOT in series with the existing cooler, which now sits unused. While the 16-row Earl's cooler has an enormous cooling capacity, the fact is you almost can't get your tranny fluid too cool. If you're going to go this far spend the time to go further and hook them up in series. In my own case this was an expedient of time. 160 miles from home, the clock is ticking and its the second install ever. While I want to leave no stone unturned this is one we had to leave alone. For now?
UPDATE 3/26/07: Track experience and torture testing indicates that leaving the cooler hooked up as a standalone as shown will significantly reduce engine cooling temps (i.e. water) since the transmission cooler is no longer in direct contact with the radiator. If you do not have a torque converter installed the method shown below may in fact be the best route. Hooking the coolers up in series will lower tranny temps and raise engine temps when under stress (i.e. track).





Power Steering Cooling


Is a power steering cooler for everyone? No. Unless you drive the car hard, I wouldn't worry about it. But if you do drive it hard I would worry given the experiences we have seen on the track with splitting hoses, spilled superheated fluid and blown pumps. Given that this is the cheapest cooler on the project, I'd say its well worth doing on general principles if you go for extended spirited drives with a lot of negotiated curves. If not, don't sweat it.
UPDATE 3/26/07: I've changed my mind somewhat, based in part on background discussions with knowledgeable individuals who have acknowledged that even the much beefier SRT cooling system can blow... and if it can go a 5.7 can go a heck of a lot more easily. If you drive the car hard put a cooler in. Cheap insurance.

First and foremost, this cooler is, well, its huge.



Two feet long with fins on the inside and on the outside, its cooling capabilities are bolstered simply by the fact that it holds over a quart of fluid.

Originally spec'd to go on the bottom of the bumper, directly in the lower grille's airstream, its been instead mounted up on top. Doing this requires some welding to provide the brackets necessary to affix it at this location.



The brackets have to be welded on at a slight angle. Fitment was accomplished by c-clamping the cooler to the desired location, marking with a pencil the line where the support to be bolted onto was, clamping a sized aluminum strip to this location and welding it on.



Bob says yes his ability to make nice-looking aluminum welds sucks, but it will never come off.



the cooler fits splendidly in this location, but whats missing here?



the car horns, which have been relocated to the drivers side bumper support.



For an easier install of this cooler, especially if you opt out of the oil cooler, consider doing what we originally planned: Mount this thing on the bottom of the bumper. The only modification necessary to the car or the cooler should be the removal of some of that foam insulation off the bumper bottom.



Source Link
Thank you very much for your contribution

Yesterday I was at the track in Santo Domingo, rxternal temperatures around 90 F.

Every 3 laps pushing hard I had to stop because of high oil and transmission temperatures. Oil close to the 300 redline, transmission > 250

I definitely need both aftermarket coolers.

1st question: where can I buy the kits you indicated? Any Internet site you would recommend?

2nd: I will have to mount the coolers elsewhere since most underhodd space will soon be occupied by a V3 Vortech and all the hardware that comes with it. Do you think that with some minor bodywork I could mount both radiators in the back fo the car (one per side) ? Would there be problems due to long hosing?

Thanks,

Max
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