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Old 01-11-2014, 06:28 PM   #902
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Originally Posted by jhoop302 View Post
For the record, the car was a TWO-OWNER car, not a one-owner car like the dealer told us. The dealer NEVER mentioned the front end damage--my wife found that out on her own. WE paid $55 for the CarFax--the dealer never offered one. The dealer also did not mention that the car had aftermarket tinted windows, aftermarket emblems, and NO DOCUMENTATION. The car just looked like it had been run hard and put away wet. My 10K tires still had over 60% tire life remaining. The so-called replacement needed new tires at 13K miles.

If the dealer had bothered to sit down with us and offer a few options in cars, maybe we would feel differently. But THEY chose the car (a trade-in) that THEY wanted us to BUY from them. Even $4000 (feel good money) was not important to us. We would have gladly PURCHASED an equivalent replacement with no "feel good" money. Money is not everything...

At any rate, a retired GM exec called me today to let me know that GM IS involved now. It is our understanding that the matter will be resolved to our satisfaction next week. And GM will make sure that we are treated fairly and equitably.

If anyone happens to call First State Chevrolet, the receptionist is named Norma. She is a real sweetheart and does not deserve to be disrespected, so PLEASE do not give her a hard time.

Thanks,
John
Good, please let us know how things go when you are able.

People that are calling the dealer and getting nasty with the receptionist, Shame on You!
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Old 01-11-2014, 06:30 PM   #903
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"Entitlement" in this situation is deserved. How often does this type of situation happen at this dealership? I'm thinking pretty close to none. The dealer has a valuable, repeat customer, why not offer him an "newer" vehicle? (like a 2013 low mileage, clean record and title) obviously greed at work here. It directly isn't the fault of either party, BUT the dealership was left with the responsibility of the care of that vehicle, just like all the other customer vehicles on that lot. They have a system of trust that is setup to protect these cars from inherent damage (keeping them indoors (ok, not all of them), putting the keys in a place that is entrusted by certain individuals, having insurance in place, etc.)

Here is where some of you business owners get lost at. The essence of buying these types of cars is the "feel good" feeling (permagrin) of ownership and making it your own. Some of you argue that it's just a car...of course, but what do you think that a guy who writes books about Camaro's and trades in his previous "joys" and the "whatever-it-takes-I-got-to-have-that-first-year-model" attitude and puts whatever mods he can afford into it, and then out of nowhere...his "baby" his wrenched from him? I ask...what kind of value is that to you?
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Old 01-11-2014, 06:37 PM   #904
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Glad to hear a "retired GM exec" is going to make something happen. That is doing the right thing! This is good business, and shouldnt be expected everytime(i agree PQ) but in this circumstance with an openly arrogant/greedy dealership that is now representing the brand and is unwilling to rectify this incident, the exec stepin is justified.
The poster that said the dealership is not directly responsible, THAT IS FALSE! im pretty sure that employee has a chain of command and procedures and is not a independent contractor.
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Old 01-11-2014, 06:40 PM   #905
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Originally Posted by Bell040 View Post
That's where I disagree.

They allowed this employee access after hours (claiming he needed to get a phone charger or something), and access to the vehicles keys, and... they must have no security guard, or alarm that sounds when the bay door opens after hours. The police didn't even charge the guy with anything because it was in the dealers possession.

If I was fixing a computer for a freind (charging him money), and my son takes it.... and drops it in the pool... I consider it my fault. I would be buying my friend a new computer. Not trying to figure out what insurance thinks the computer is worth.
I agree on your scenario of course I buy the friend another computer too. Even if I WASN'T charging him.

And I understood this guy to be the service writer with typical service writer access. Like I said, we do not have all of the facts. But, again, you are saying that the owner needs to spend the night and live at the dealer. So what if the security guard did it? Same thing right. So it doesn't matter who did it, if they broke in unauthorized then you would hold the dealer accountable and liable above market value. I would not.

Right thing to do, sure. Because the car had such low miles on it. But I"m curious what you'd do if the car had 50k miles on it? And was in perfect shape?

We can agree what we'd do. We just disagree on what the obligation officially should be.

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Originally Posted by jhoop302 View Post
For the record, the car was a TWO-OWNER car, not a one-owner car like the dealer told us. The dealer NEVER mentioned the front end damage--my wife found that out on her own. WE paid $55 for the CarFax--the dealer never offered one. The dealer also did not mention that the car had aftermarket tinted windows, aftermarket emblems, and NO DOCUMENTATION. The car just looked like it had been run hard and put away wet. My 10K tires still had over 60% tire life remaining. The so-called replacement needed new tires at 13K miles.

If the dealer had bothered to sit down with us and offer a few options in cars, maybe we would feel differently. But THEY chose the car (a trade-in) that THEY wanted us to BUY from them. Even $4000 (feel good money) was not important to us. We would have gladly PURCHASED an equivalent replacement with no "feel good" money. Money is not everything...

At any rate, a retired GM exec called me today to let me know that GM IS involved now. It is our understanding that the matter will be resolved to our satisfaction next week. And GM will make sure that we are treated fairly and equitably.

If anyone happens to call First State Chevrolet, the receptionist is named Norma. She is a real sweetheart and does not deserve to be disrespected, so PLEASE do not give her a hard time.

Thanks,
John
You came to this forum with the sole purpose of getting your story out there. And so you have and I hate this for you. God, I can't imagine. The decision alone to let go of the classic I'm sure was torture.

To ask for a whole brand new car is a ballsy if you understand that the dealer had no desire to have a crazy employee break in and steal it. But I think fair.

But like I said, YOU have to be happy with the offer. And you were not and that's perfectly fair too.

But to see the dealer as villains who are out to screw you I think is wrong. At least with the info you have given us.

I'm sure GM wants this to just go away. Hopefully you'll get your new car.

And hopefully you'll stick around here and join the fun.
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Old 01-11-2014, 06:41 PM   #906
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Well, let's just use this thread as an example.

So GM ponies up for a big PR bump and to help this guy out.

Sweet. GM rocks.

NOW, the next one then what? GM just set a precedence. Now GM is a piece of shit any time they don't jump in and foot the bill for some dumb asses joy ride any mistake by a dealer. OR anything else similar. That's what has happened here.
precedence has been set already before this happened.
cliff notes, there was the guy who had his engine repaired at the dealer and later the valves kissed the pistons.
dealer would only replace the heads, GM stepped in and new engine installed at another dealer.

I didnt see anybody calling GM a pos for not stepping in up until today where apparently they are involved now.

PS, kudos to those from other dealers, GM and elsewhere that stepped up to help the OP.
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Old 01-11-2014, 06:41 PM   #907
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See that's where I guess I make my switch as to who SHOULD do what.

The dealer did not do anything wrong. They are a victim in this as well. A much lesser victim but I will not hold the level of responsibility different with who has more money being the differing factor. Which is what is happening here to a large extent.

A good business decision would have the dealer order him a new car since the car had fairly low miles. But I don't see where it was required accountability wise officially. Like, by law. (which is what we are hearing here) They don't want to lose money. The deal they offered was fair. If it's not acceptable to the customer then that is fine. Customer get's to be the one who ultimately decides. But to say the dealer tried to screw him over is punishing the dealer because they are a business and must have plenty of money. And it boils down to that here.

This type of thing is why nobody touches my car any more but me. But every time I've ever dropped my car off I've said the same thing. It's insured, I'm not worried about it. I mod, I know I lose the extra unless I buy extra insurance for it.

I can't say enough though, I do think the dealer should give him a new car at this point. BUT, the deal offered him was fair and they can keep looking for a similar car. And, again, what if that car had 20k miles on it? 30k or 40k? Who get's to make the decision at what point he does not get to 'demand' a brand new car?

I think this guy might have heard a few people tell him he should get a new car so is demanding it. At this point I doubt he get's it.

To answer your question as to why anyone would care if the dealer get's screwed...... I own a business. I know how thin profit can be. I don't hold it against someone just because they might have more money.
If you didn't own a business, what would you're perspective be? I can see how you are passionate about this issue because, I'm sure like any other business, this puts a hurt on the wallet in one sense, but if it's done right, It's a boom for business.
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Old 01-11-2014, 06:50 PM   #908
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Originally Posted by hawk02 View Post
Finally a voice of reason.

This has always been and will continue to be an insurance settlement. Why the majority feel the owner is entitled to a brand new car is baffling to me.

As HOF pointed out, what if the dealership had been struck by lightning and the place burned to the ground or a tornado came through and destroyed the facilities. Would the expectation still be for the owner to receive a new car. Of course not, he would get an insurance settlement based on the market value of the car at the time of the incident. Why is this any different? This was a random act of a former employee, but it could have easily been a random act of mother nature. I see no difference between the two.

I feel bad for the owner. If this happened to my ZL1, I would be crushed and mad as hell, and you can bet I would never do business with that dealership again. But expecting to be reimbursed more than the insurance settlement seems a bit unrealistic to me.
Random act of a former employee """"
Not really , the bastard was on the payroll at the time he did the deed
About comparing it with acts of God , makes no sense , two complete different situations
I for one , never said ,,,,give the OP. A brand new car , but this dealer is dragging his feet , but that's his problem and choice
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Old 01-11-2014, 06:55 PM   #909
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Originally Posted by Bad@ssCamaro View Post
"Entitlement" in this situation is deserved. How often does this type of situation happen at this dealership? I'm thinking pretty close to none. The dealer has a valuable, repeat customer, why not offer him an "newer" vehicle? (like a 2013 low mileage, clean record and title) obviously greed at work here. It directly isn't the fault of either party, BUT the dealership was left with the responsibility of the care of that vehicle, just like all the other customer vehicles on that lot. They have a system of trust that is setup to protect these cars from inherent damage (keeping them indoors (ok, not all of them), putting the keys in a place that is entrusted by certain individuals, having insurance in place, etc.)

Here is where some of you business owners get lost at. The essence of buying these types of cars is the "feel good" feeling (permagrin) of ownership and making it your own. Some of you argue that it's just a car...of course, but what do you think that a guy who writes books about Camaro's and trades in his previous "joys" and the "whatever-it-takes-I-got-to-have-that-first-year-model" attitude and puts whatever mods he can afford into it, and then out of nowhere...his "baby" his wrenched from him? I ask...what kind of value is that to you?
I am a business owner AND the very guy you just described. (except I have not wrote any books) ...... (unless you count my Camaro5 activity haha)

And the ONLY thing on my heavily moded car that I let a shop do instead of doing it myself has failed and caused my engine to die. I did not throw anyone under the bus. (totally different than the OP situation by which I would be doing exactly what the OP is doing)

Most of us on here are that guy you are describing. I get it. My only point is that it's awfully easy for everyone to hold someone to a higher standard because they have money. We aren't talking about a computer or a window or small property, but a 65 thousand dollar car.

I will not fault this dealer for trying to find a reasonable end other than taking a 20k hit on this. Regardless whos insurance pays, there will be a 10 to 20 thousand dollar difference if the OP demands a brand new car.

We have not been told all of the facts. We have been fed tactically thought out info. Obviously. Can't say I blame them. Dealer OR the OP.

I hope all of you realize that if your heavily modded car get's stolen or totaled or worse, that you are not going to get brand new cars because of it. Not unless you bought some kind of special insurance that I have not heard about. A drink driver could hit you. Or someone could take a sledge hammer to it for an hour or so and total it and you will get market value.

But we need to hold dealers MORE responsible. Even though they had it locked up and it was stolen. Even by their own employee.

Don't complain the next time service prices rise. They have to cover rogue employees now.
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Old 01-11-2014, 06:57 PM   #910
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Well I assure you businesses HATE sales tax. It drives me crazy to have to charge my clients sales tax when they buy product. Cost goes up and they become less likely to buy.

And I agree with you on the rest other than the liability in this case as presented. If I have an employee with a perfect record, great credit and been with me for years that snaps, even after hours, how is that my fault? How is that my 'negligence'?

Keep in mind, if the dealer WAS in fact negligent then I'm with you but there is not evidence of that here. Not yet.

Let businesses make their own decision and fail when they make bad ones. Let the general public secure their own insurance and protect themselves.

The vast majority of businesses have very thin profit margins and very steep liabilities. I'm giving the dealer the benefit of the doubt because we do NOT know all of the facts.

If I were the ultimate decider in this case I'd rule for the dealers insurance to cover the market value of the car and nothing more.

If it were my dealership the OP MIGHT have posted his story but only to tell people how happy he was with me despite a crazy ex-employee.
Your last paragraph shows to me at least , that you do see things different than the OP dealer
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Old 01-11-2014, 07:08 PM   #911
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Random act of a former employee """"
Not really , the bastard was on the payroll at the time he did the deed
About comparing it with acts of God , makes no sense , two complete different situations
I for one , never said ,,,,give the OP. A brand new car , but this dealer is dragging his feet , but that's his problem and choice
Wait, wut?

I thought it was after hours and unauthorized?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr pogo View Post
precedence has been set already before this happened.
cliff notes, there was the guy who had his engine repaired at the dealer and later the valves kissed the pistons.
dealer would only replace the heads, GM stepped in and new engine installed at another dealer.

I didnt see anybody calling GM a pos for not stepping in up until today where apparently they are involved now.

PS, kudos to those from other dealers, GM and elsewhere that stepped up to help the OP.
That case had other circumstances. It was one of those, again, where GM got tired of the bully customer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad@ssCamaro View Post
If you didn't own a business, what would you're perspective be? I can see how you are passionate about this issue because, I'm sure like any other business, this puts a hurt on the wallet in one sense, but if it's done right, It's a boom for business.
I felt this way long before I owned my business.

I always wanted to own a business and make a lot of money. And I always defended those who did in a free society. In every way.

Well now I own my business (just not making a ton of money lol) and I still feel the same all the way around.

I have learned a lot owning a business that I had no clue of before. It used to piss me off when companies would offer the best prices to the new customers and the long time customers didn't get the good deals. And the new customers would bitch because their rates would go up so fast after they signed up. Well it make perfect sense now. You need the new business. You have to entice new business and you can't afford to give long time customers those rates or you lose.

Just one quick example. lol

But as far as liability in this situation I was always an employee of someone. And I did stupid shit like break flourecent light bulb tubes like I was Luke freaking Skywalker by the dumpsters. That would have been a fine for the company and I realized one day that that is such bullshit. I was a VFW with a good credit score and a great work history. How was the company supposed to know I might have cost them like that. OR, what if a company driver (because I saw it when I drove 18 wheelers) was drunk. I always thought it was bullshit for the company to have to pay when it was his dumb ass fault and the company did their due diligence in hiring a guy who had a perfect driving record and good credit with half a million certified safe miles.

Liability. Of course. But we go WAY overboard at times. And that is all I'm saying.

BUT, I do think that officially and legally we hold businesses accountable to a level that makes people not want to bother. I know me and Bonnie held off hiring simply because it creates way too much risk and we take on so much as it is.
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Old 01-11-2014, 07:11 PM   #912
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Originally Posted by Bad@ssCamaro View Post
"Entitlement" in this situation is deserved. How often does this type of situation happen at this dealership? I'm thinking pretty close to none. The dealer has a valuable, repeat customer, why not offer him an "newer" vehicle? (like a 2013 low mileage, clean record and title) obviously greed at work here. It directly isn't the fault of either party, BUT the dealership was left with the responsibility of the care of that vehicle, just like all the other customer vehicles on that lot. They have a system of trust that is setup to protect these cars from inherent damage (keeping them indoors (ok, not all of them), putting the keys in a place that is entrusted by certain individuals, having insurance in place, etc.)

Here is where some of you business owners get lost at. The essence of buying these types of cars is the "feel good" feeling (permagrin) of ownership and making it your own. Some of you argue that it's just a car...of course, but what do you think that a guy who writes books about Camaro's and trades in his previous "joys" and the "whatever-it-takes-I-got-to-have-that-first-year-model" attitude and puts whatever mods he can afford into it, and then out of nowhere...his "baby" his wrenched from him? I ask...what kind of value is that to you?
^^^^^^^^THIS.
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Old 01-11-2014, 07:13 PM   #913
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To back OP ,I would not want a used ZL1 with a "parking lot type bump or bruise type of thing" bumper replaced at Ford either. (which I am sure says "front end impact" somewhere on paper). Secondly there are civil liabilities at play here and dealer and employee share this and will pay in civil court.
Civil liabilities? Please. You guys watch too much Law and Order. The car was stolen from the dealership, albeit by an employee. That, plus the disclaimer/hold harmless that he probably signed, and yeah, good luck suing the dealer. If you're going to go after anyone here, you'd have to go after the employee. Good luck suing a guy that makes $35k/yr, even if your obtain a favorable judgment, you'll never collect from a guy that has relatively nothing in assets.

Quote:
The liabilities owed in the end will far outweigh the extra 4k they offered. You screw up bad in society you pay for it and the compensation is based on how outrageous the act, and this one qualifys for more then 4k.
That's not at all how our civil justice system works. He deserves to be made whole. He did not win the sweepstakes. There's a huge difference here. His car had depreciated by 20% thus he deserves a car worth the same as what he lost.

The notion that the dealer is in any way responsible or liable for this is entirely up for debate as well. People love to hate on dealers because, well, it's fun to hate on dealers. But like the other guy said, they're just as much a victim in this as the owner. The only reason the dealer is getting hammered over this is because everyone seems to think this guy should be gifted a brand new $60k automobile in return for his used $47k example.

The dealer has put in an honest effort to make the guy whole. The car they're offering apparently has better options than the one they lost and they're compensating for the extra miles by throwing cash on top. Seems pretty fair to me.

Quote:
To GM folks that seem to have no problem speaking there opinions any other time on this forum as a rep at times and others as your personal opinion, I standby my first post....
...crickets...
crickets...

the janitor at GMs bonus could pay for the difference between OP and dealer.
Why would GM get involved in this? It's an independent dealer vs a private customer. GM has no dog in this fight.

Quote:
Here is where some of you business owners get lost at. The essence of buying these types of cars is the "feel good" feeling (permagrin) of ownership and making it your own. Some of you argue that it's just a car...of course, but what do you think that a guy who writes books about Camaro's and trades in his previous "joys" and the "whatever-it-takes-I-got-to-have-that-first-year-model" attitude and puts whatever mods he can afford into it, and then out of nowhere...his "baby" his wrenched from him? I ask...what kind of value is that to you?
It's rather hard to put a dollar amount on puppies, rainbows, cupcakes and newborn babies.
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Old 01-11-2014, 07:16 PM   #914
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Wait, wut?

I thought it was after hours and unauthorized?

That case had other circumstances. It was one of those, again, where GM got tired of the bully customer.

I felt this way long before I owned my business.

I always wanted to own a business and make a lot of money. And I always defended those who did in a free society. In every way.

Well now I own my business (just not making a ton of money lol) and I still feel the same all the way around.

I have learned a lot owning a business that I had no clue of before. It used to piss me off when companies would offer the best prices to the new customers and the long time customers didn't get the good deals. And the new customers would bitch because their rates would go up so fast after they signed up. Well it make perfect sense now. You need the new business. You have to entice new business and you can't afford to give long time customers those rates or you lose.

Just one quick example. lol

But as far as liability in this situation I was always an employee of someone. And I did stupid shit like break flourecent light bulb tubes like I was Luke freaking Skywalker by the dumpsters. That would have been a fine for the company and I realized one day that that is such bullshit. I was a VFW with a good credit score and a great work history. How was the company supposed to know I might have cost them like that. OR, what if a company driver (because I saw it when I drove 18 wheelers) was drunk. I always thought it was bullshit for the company to have to pay when it was his dumb ass fault and the company did their due diligence in hiring a guy who had a perfect driving record and good credit with half a million certified safe miles.

Liability. Of course. But we go WAY overboard at times. And that is all I'm saying.

BUT, I do think that officially and legally we hold businesses accountable to a level that makes people not want to bother. I know me and Bonnie held off hiring simply because it creates way too much risk and we take on so much as it is.
And this is why I do everything myself now and no longer have any employees. I have in the past had incidents where an employee damaged a customers vehicle(nothing like this incident) usually minor because sometimes shit happens but I always made it right and in any case if I chose to not take care of it out of pocket I always had adequate insurance. This is where this dealer is falling a little short.
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Old 01-11-2014, 07:20 PM   #915
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Random act of a former employee """"
Not really , the bastard was on the payroll at the time he did the deed
About comparing it with acts of God , makes no sense , two complete different situations
I for one , never said ,,,,give the OP. A brand new car , but this dealer is dragging his feet , but that's his problem and choice
Act of God not covered by Insurance but the stupidity of an Employee is
covered. That's why I brought up Act of God. Hail Storm is good example of an Act of God.
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Old 01-11-2014, 07:27 PM   #916
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One thing I would like to know is did any charges get put on the person that entered the dealership , took the car, totaled the car , snaped a telephone pole. Where I am at this person would have spent time in the local jail, make a court apperance and have a record on them to follow them around for the rest of their life. Or just firing the person from the dealership the penalty for what they did?
I wouldn't think that would have happened anywhere in the US!
I feel sorry for the owner of the car and hope this all works out and then some! Don't give up and keep the pressure on them to make it good for ya!
If you read the newspaper report on this, It says the name of the employee, Do A search on facebook, you will find him, Maybe then we can ask him what was he thinking. just a thought.
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Old 01-11-2014, 07:29 PM   #917
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I hope that out of this all dealers realize that to a lot of people it's not"JUST A CAR". Some people make a lot of sacrifices to have the vehicle of their dreams. When I wanted to mod my car I figured out what it was going to cost and worked a pile of overtime to afford it. Nobody has the right to take that from you!!!! When it's in there care it should be treated properly
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Old 01-11-2014, 07:53 PM   #918
Devilfish
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Drives: 2011 Camaro 2SS/RS
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Rotten Groton, CT
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I have read this whole thread. I don't believe the dealer owes OP a brand new car. I certainly don't believe that the OP should get anything for free. I do think that the dealer should do their best to find the OP something other than a 2 owner car with aftermarket wheels and prior damage for his 1 owner car in pristine condition. Anything above the $44k in insurance money? If they cared enough about their customer, they would suck up a little loss. Again, I am not saying they should give him a new car, just exactly what he lost.

If the car they offered him had been 1 or 2 owner with 13,000 miles and no aftermarket rims or prior damage, I would say he should have taken it and moved on. 3,000 miles is not that big of a deal. I think that the dealer may have still been making some sort of profit on that deal though. Trade-in ZL1 with after market wheels and prior damage. I bet they raped the previous owner on that deal. When I traded my car, I know the dealer ran a car fax before they even made an offer. If mine had been previously damaged, I would have gotten a significantly lower offer.

In summation, I think both sides have agendas. I don't think that if I owned a business, I would handle it this way, but I don't own 1st State Chevy. Now, people upset over him having to buy a replacement and not just being given one, that's flat out stupid. OP should have to buy his replacement. Why would it be okay for him to walk away with $44k and a new car, just because the dealer had a bad employee.

Carry On.
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1st state chevrolet, stealership, stolen, totaled, wrecked, zl1

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