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Old 07-20-2009, 02:33 PM   #1
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Detroit Speed vs. Pedders

I have been reading everything I can find online about after market suspensions. I am interested in a daily driver that handles very well without sacrificing a lot of ride quality. I have prior experience working with Jeep suspensions, but this is my first sports car.

I am seriously considering either Detroit Speed or a Pedder's set up. I spoke with DSE today and they were very helpful. Their current package $975 will include 4 coils (1.5 inch lower ride height) and front and rear sway bars. The end links have been dropped because they determined the factory end links allowed for a lot of rotation, which was necessary for proper suspension travel. I asked if they intended to offer more parts but they have determined that to alter the suspension more would be a detriment to ride quality.

I have been following Pedder's threads here. I have not been able to reach anyone at their company through email or phone. I did speak with Ron at vengeance racing, very nice guy to work with. Pedder's offers a lot more components. They really seem to be performance oriented.

Has any member had experience with these companies? How would you rate these suspension packages? I know every setup has trade offs. Is the pedders setup more of a track style suspension?

Like I said no personal experience with either. I would like to hear an honest critique from people who have. Thanks for taking the time.
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Old 07-20-2009, 02:47 PM   #2
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Hey JLP,
I hear what your saying. I don't know anyone else doing any suspension products. I am looking for just a lowering kit to get the car down and take out the 2 to 3 inches between the tires and the upper wheel wells.
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Old 07-20-2009, 03:11 PM   #3
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Simper Fi I can foward the emails I have exchanged with a pedders guy in CA, I'm hanging out in the sandbox so no experince yet but I can send you what I got
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Old 07-20-2009, 03:17 PM   #4
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Glad I could be of some help. I dont have any experience with Detroit Speed, but if you decide to go with Pedders I would be more than happy to help you out!!!!
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Old 07-20-2009, 04:32 PM   #5
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I know Eibach is already bringing out a line of products and Hotchkis as well. They have threads here, 5thgen.org, and on you tube. I focused on these 2 companies because they seem more like specialists. I know, when it comes to suspension, one size doesn't fit all.

Detroit Speed Inc. has a very strong reputation among Camaro fans. They are actually former GM suspension engineers who left to start their own company.
I know pedders is very big down under and has a long history with Holden.

Ron, you will be getting my business for several other mods. Is your camaro still in QC?

gettingaMaro! pm coming your way.
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Old 07-20-2009, 05:56 PM   #6
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i have a Xa kit ordered for my camaro though pedders. the kit is amazing. nothing outthere compares to it now. thier setup is a coilover andjustable and dampening system. you can lower the car about 3" and change the dampening and still get an stock cushiony feel. now it isnt 900 something dollars like the other kit. but it is a performance kit. not just for looks. thats why i went with them. even though the wait is killing me. its gonna be worth it.
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Old 07-20-2009, 06:03 PM   #7
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I called Mike at DMS - Pedders and I can tell you he not only picked up the phone everytime but spoke to me over an hour the phone once.

They are INSANE Knowledgeable and I feel 100% trust with this company.

Not many companies can say they have over 4000 hours testing there products. You will get what you pay for with them...

This is why I have a set coming once they are done.

EDIT
This car was done with by DES and personally think it is awesome



Last edited by Indpowr; 07-20-2009 at 06:59 PM.
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Old 07-20-2009, 06:15 PM   #8
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So Detroit Speed put Pedders on this car?
http://www.detroitspeed.com/projectp...amaro-main.htm
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Old 07-20-2009, 06:18 PM   #9
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pedders doesnt make those sway bars they installed on that, do they? the exhaust looks janky on that.
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Old 07-20-2009, 06:20 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indpowr View Post
I called Mike at DMS - Pedders and I can tell you he not only picked up the phone everytime but spoke to me over an hour the phone once.

They are INSANE Knowledgeable and I feel 100% trust with this company.

Not many companies can say they have over 4000 hours testing there products. You will get what you pay for with them...

This is why I have a set coming once they are done.

This car was done with Pedders springs and personally think it is perfect.


but DSE did that car i believe....
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Old 07-20-2009, 06:50 PM   #11
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but DSE did that car i believe....
That is true Indpower. I have seen many good posts from you, but that camaro belongs to Stacey, one of the owners of Detroit Speed. I think it was listed on a thread that started off about DSE and became suspension discussion.

I know Pedders has a long history. I have spent a few months in Australia so I have seen their market there. Australia loves rear wheel drive vehicles. I wasn't doubting the company. I was hoping someone had actually driven their setup. Ron at vengeance racing had a lot of experience with their G8 setup. I have seen people making passing remarks about their G8s here. I was hoping they would comment on likes or dislikes. Things they would do differently, did everything live up to expectation, any unforseen issues, etc.
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Old 07-20-2009, 06:57 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by usmcjlp View Post
That is true Indpower. I have seen many good posts from you, but that camaro belongs to Stacey, one of the owners of Detroit Speed. I think it was listed on a thread that started off about DSE and became suspension discussion.

I know Pedders has a long history. I have spent a few months in Australia so I have seen their market there. Australia loves rear wheel drive vehicles. I wasn't doubting the company. I was hoping someone had actually driven their setup. Ron at vengeance racing had a lot of experience with their G8 setup. I have seen people making passing remarks about their G8s here. I was hoping they would comment on likes or dislikes. Things they would do differently, did everything live up to expectation, any unforseen issues, etc.
Did not know...Still a sick looking ride...but will go with Pedders because of there vast knowledge.

Thanks for setting me straight...
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Old 07-20-2009, 07:19 PM   #13
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I am having a hard time figuring out from pedder's website the exact details of their individual packages. I see the track extreme, which is their full up package. I'm not sure if I need that level of suspension. I see they have a bushing only kit and they list street, sport and track coils. Are these separate coils or different coilovers?

The pedders can be done in stages right? By going with the harder bushings, how does their system compensate for vibration and road noise? I don't want a lot of rattling in a street driven vehicle.
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Old 07-20-2009, 07:22 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by usmcjlp View Post
I am having a hard time figuring out from pedder's website the exact details of their individual packages. I see the track extreme, which is their full up package. I'm not sure if I need that level of suspension. I see they have a bushing only kit and they list street, sport and track coils. Are these separate coils or different coilovers?

The pedders can be done in stages right? By going with the harder bushings, how does their system compensate for vibration and road noise? I don't want a lot of rattling in a street driven vehicle.
Maybe this will help some.
Quote:
Pete did a mutliple test fit of our Pedders coils only on a 6 cylinder Camaro with 20 inch wheels. the OE heights were at:
Front 690mm
Rear 700mm

We installed our front coils to a final height of 667mm. Rears are different. We know the extra weight of the Camaro and the shorter wheel base. Spring rates on these coils will be proprietary but will be in the 30-50% higher than OE rates. We know there will be a large amount of Camaros that owners will want to install larger, oversized wheels that may not have the most efficient offsets. and oversized rear wheels will add to the Camaro's aggressive understeer. These Camaro owners may elect to go with a drop that will lower the vehicles slightly to allow a larger wheel and tire. For those customers then our first level rear coil will be perfect for you. The first level rear coils will drop the rear to 675mm from 700mm OE height.

Then we will have the Camaro owners that want the looks and want to max out on handling with the our upgraded coils. This is accomplished by our second set of rear coils, that will drop the back end to 660mm. this is a 15mm drop lower than our first set of rear coils and is a engineered, specific goal. The 15mm drop will really help on the aggressive understeer that seriously plagues the Camaro and will add to the aggressive stance of the Camaro as well. Wheel fitment may become more of an important influence over the first set of coils

Pictures are coming.

Now here are the assigned part numbers for our new Camaros:
220032 Ride Height with 20" Wheels 667mm

220035 Ride Height with 20" Wheels 675mm
220033 Ride height with 20" Wheels 660mm

We now have 2 coil drop kits for your selection. The pricing is preliminary, and orders were placed last week. Here are the 2 coil only drop kits:

Camaro Drop Spring Kit 1 By Pedders
Merlin Store P/N is ______________________
This kit is for the enthusiast that is looking for that aggressive look over performance and may need a slightly higher rear stance due to oversized wheels and tires. This kit offers a 20-25mm drop in ride height. With higher coil ratinings and a lower vehicle stance, performance iimprovements is a real plus

į
Part # Pedders Compnent Price
220032 "Camaro 2009 Front drop Coils & Ride Height with 20"" Wheels at 667mm
" $89.62
220032 "Camaro 2009 Front drop Coils & Ride Height with 20"" Wheels at 667mm
" $89.62
220035 Camaro Zeta Rear Coil Ride Height with 20" Wheels 675mm $89.62
220035 Camaro Zeta Rear Coil Ride Height with 20" Wheels 675mm $89.62
Pedders Drop Coils Only Parts Total $358.48
Menu System Discount $38.49

Menu System Discount Adjusted Parts Total $319.99

Camaro Performance Drop Spring Kit 2
Merlin Store P/N is ______________________
This kit is for the enthusiast that is looking for that aggressive look with with a more performance oriented handling experience. The fronts are a 20mm drop and the rears are a 40mm drop. This look is a European look, and will seriously reduce the significant amount of understeer the new Camaro offers.
Part # Pedders Compnent Price

220032 "Camaro 2009 Front drop Coils & Ride Height with 20"" Wheels at 667mm
" $89.62
220032 "Camaro 2009 Front drop Coils & Ride Height with 20"" Wheels at 667mm
" $89.62
220033 Camaro 2009 Rear Drop Coils & Ride Height with 20" Wheels at 660mm $89.62
220033 Camaro 2009 Rear Drop Coils & Ride Height with 20" Wheels at 660mm $89.62
Pedders Drop Coils Only Parts Total $358.48
Menu System Discount $38.49

Menu System Discount Adjusted Parts Total $319.99



Coil orders were placed last week. You can be the first to get yours by contacting us and getting the orders advance. Our Merlin store is not yet set up for these kits. So contact any of your Pedders dealers that are sponsors here on this great forum and we can assist you. If we have a price difference, you will get the lower price. If the price is not at this level, then you will get this price until it is posted about the change.

It has not been confirmed an ETA for these coils. This information will be given out the moment we have a date.

thanks to all for you patience.
If you need assistance or have any questions, just ask

thanks
mike
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Old 07-20-2009, 07:37 PM   #15
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So Detroit Speed put Pedders on this car?
http://www.detroitspeed.com/projectp...amaro-main.htm
No.. why would DSE put Pedders on thier car????

We will be testing the DSE stuff soon.. will let you know how it does.
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Old 07-20-2009, 08:43 PM   #16
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A major bone the GTO crowd had to pick with Pedders is that they refuse to release spring rates. I have a full Track II on my car and the 0 drop springs are too soft for the shocks and struts that come with them. I'm tempted to change to a stiffer King Spring setup. They will give you a million different reasons they don't release their spring rates, and they will tell you to just go out and drive a Pedderized car, but that doesn't change the fact that many people know their own way around suspensions and don't like being treated like they don't.

HOWEVER...Pedders dealers are some of the best aftermarket guys in the US. They stand behind their product 100% and are usually extremely accessible. So much so that they get bogged down helping out customers sometimes that it takes them a bit to get back to you.

My Pedderized GTO is a great street car. Handles pretty nice and I can drive it through Manhatten with girls in it and they don't think it's too harsh. Manhatten has AWFUL roads. I just personally wish it was stiffer. They also sell an even more street oriented setup with softer shocks that still provide better control than stock. I'm sure they'll have something for you.

That is my experience with Pedders. They also have a leg up on the competition because they've been working on VE (Camaro) suspension since 06, when the VE Commodore came out.

Detroit Speed and Engineering's competence should speak for itself. They design some of the most badass Pro-Touring cars I've EVER seen. If I were building the Pro-Touring 69 Z/28 clone I've built a thousand times over in my head, they would most certainly have my business.

Either way you can't go wrong, and it's up to you to decide exactly what you're looking for and see which of them meets your needs more.
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Old 07-20-2009, 09:03 PM   #17
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LSXJunkie, thanks that's exactly what I was looking for. Having done suspension work with Jeeps, I know that when you first install a suspension it feels like a dramatic improvement. But like with anything, after you have it a while you begin to see things you would change. Just a part of modding.

How have the bushings held up over time? Have you had any suspension noise develop over time?
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Old 07-20-2009, 09:38 PM   #18
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I have a full Track II on my car
how many miles do you have on the suspension?
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Old 07-20-2009, 09:50 PM   #19
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Rob@WretchedMS,

Can you explain the specific bushings that pedders recommends switching? My concern is that changing to much stiffer bushings will result in a lot more stiffness that will create rattles over time. I understand the stock bushings are tuned specifically to dampen certain problem frequency ranges. How does pedders compensate?
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Old 07-20-2009, 10:11 PM   #20
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I'm sure that Mike and Pete will be a bit more informative that I can be on that.

What i can tell you is that nearly all Pedders parts are designed to be on a car that gets driven every day. I drive mt fully Pedderized GTO every day, and my wife drives her fully Pedderized SRT8 every day. Both cars are very well mannered on the road, and do very well at the track.

My GTO has 65k on it, and i've had the suspension on for 45k, i have 2 rattles in the GTO, both started after pushing the car VERY hard at the track, neither of them is enough to warrant finding, as they are very infrequent, and not really noticeable.

The SRT8 has about 30k on it, and 20k of it on the suspension, it's dead quiet (except for her crap that hangs from the mirror, but that's another discussion) there are zero rattles or noises in her car.

Our bushings are not the hardest bushings you can put on a car, that's not the Pedders way of doing things. I can also tell you that the testing that they do is just insane, they have thrown out parts that didn't meet what they considered a finished product.

one last thing, I am a Pedders dealer because i was a customer, that was blown away by what they did for my GTO. I used the typical things on my 3rd gen Camaro, ES Bushings, Hotchkis, Koni, ect, a bunch of different manufacturers all very good in their own right, but not what i felt was 'as good as it could be' when you put it all together. Pedders is the only company that I've ever dealt with that has a complete package, and does all of their own R&D.

USMC i see, I was born at Cherry Point when my Father was stationed there.

Thank you for what you have given us!
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Old 07-20-2009, 11:49 PM   #21
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I may be in the minority but I'd rather have an aftermarket outfit with a great rep who was last to market ILO first to market when it comes to suspension and exhaust. The car is so new , I just have a hard time believing we've seen the ultimate just yet
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Old 07-21-2009, 12:41 AM   #22
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Quote:
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Rob@WretchedMS,

Can you explain the specific bushings that pedders recommends switching? My concern is that changing to much stiffer bushings will result in a lot more stiffness that will create rattles over time. I understand the stock bushings are tuned specifically to dampen certain problem frequency ranges. How does pedders compensate?
Unless you tried to get ahold of me today and today only, which I was unavailable due to a massive family function, I have been extremely available to the Camaro community. Every post I make has my email, and my phone.

With that said, Pedders has been working with GM racing for some time. In fact the Koni series GS Camaro will have our bushings and will be made by Riley's Technology.

On all ZETA platform vehicles, there are 3 primary bushings that need help, for sporty driving.
1. The front radius rod bushing on the Camaro is larger than the G8, but still offers a lot of unnecessary movement of the lower control arm, especially during hard braking. It is a fluid filled bushing for damping but still allows a lot of movement. This is the bushing that got us in the door with GM Racing. We will soon have a kit to supplement this bushing that will allow caster adjustability.
2. Rear cradle bushings. GM Racing understood this is a problematic bushing for handling purposes due to it allowing the rear cradle to move excessively from the body. How GM racing resolved the movement was to make a solid, non moveable delron assembly, which will wear frequently and will generate a large amount of noise and vibration. But it is a race car and who cares. The Camaro version is a larger bushing that the G8, but still subject to excessive movement, due to the rather large amount of voids in the bushing itself. Our fix is to install a bushing insert top and bottom that fills the voids. This allows the OE bushing to isolate noise and vibration, but does not allow the bushing to move.
3. Differential bushings. The only difference between the Camaro bushing and the G8 bushing is the outer jacket. The G8 outer jacket is aluminum and the Camaro is steel. The bushing, however will allow a very large amount of movement of the differential, especially at hard launches. It is not recommended to eliminate any movement due to noise and shock to the axles (we already have a dealer that shattered a rear axle on a tuned SS) but our differential bushing will offer a serious amount of control to the differential.

The above bushing upgrades is called our Street 1 package. This is a critical bushing set. We would not recommend road racing or tracking with the OE front radius rod bushing.

Now the other bushings:
1. The front lower control arm bushing from GM is a very stoutly bushing with a rather unusual shape. We are satisfied this bushing is worthy of tracking and therefore will not offer one. It is better than the G8 bushing.
2. Upper rear, rear control arm bushing is a critical bushing for serious driving. If not adjusted correctly, it can create rear bump steer. We know how to adjust it. It is the same as the G8.
3. The rear outer joints that connect the knuckle to the upper and lower control arms are quite good. they are joints and not bushings, and do not need upgrading.
4. The trailing arm and toe link bushings are the same on the Camaro as with the G8, with the exception of the trailing arm are the same. Camaro, however, use a 14mm bolt for both units. The G8 uses a combination of 12 and 14mm. so on the Camaro, we will use the same bushing on the Camaro trailing arm and toe links. Now on hard launches the Oe bushings can add to wheel hop which which is a result of unwanted movement.
5. The rear lower control arm bushing needs some firming up. It is the same bushing as the G8.
6. Rear camber and toe eccentrics. The Camaro eccentrics are a big improvement over the G8. The G8 eccentrics will allow you 2 adjustments or so for alignments. After that, the eccentric strips out due to the eccentric being made so thin. the Camaro uses a thicker eccentric that is more durable than the Camaro. However, the amount of adjustability of both the eccentrics is extremely limiting. Our Pedders Zeta rear eccentric kit is SERIOUSLY stronger than the Camaro, with a lifetime warranty (ask us for details) as well as offers a much larger adjustment range.

So that is pretty much all the bushings except sway bar D bushings, which will come with our new adjustable sway bars that we should be testing next week.


Now one final thing: GM Racing has thoroughly tested our bushings, and Xa Coil overs. They have asked us to apply for GM licensing for the Camaro. We have submitted the application, but have not heard back from them. They all happened at the time of GM ownership change as a result of the bankruptcy.
Hope this helps

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Old 07-21-2009, 01:19 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob@WretchedMS View Post
I'm sure that Mike and Pete will be a bit more informative that I can be on that.

What i can tell you is that nearly all Pedders parts are designed to be on a car that gets driven every day. I drive mt fully Pedderized GTO every day, and my wife drives her fully Pedderized SRT8 every day. Both cars are very well mannered on the road, and do very well at the track.

My GTO has 65k on it, and i've had the suspension on for 45k, i have 2 rattles in the GTO, both started after pushing the car VERY hard at the track, neither of them is enough to warrant finding, as they are very infrequent, and not really noticeable.

The SRT8 has about 30k on it, and 20k of it on the suspension, it's dead quiet (except for her crap that hangs from the mirror, but that's another discussion) there are zero rattles or noises in her car.

Our bushings are not the hardest bushings you can put on a car, that's not the Pedders way of doing things. I can also tell you that the testing that they do is just insane, they have thrown out parts that didn't meet what they considered a finished product.

one last thing, I am a Pedders dealer because i was a customer, that was blown away by what they did for my GTO. I used the typical things on my 3rd gen Camaro, ES Bushings, Hotchkis, Koni, ect, a bunch of different manufacturers all very good in their own right, but not what i felt was 'as good as it could be' when you put it all together. Pedders is the only company that I've ever dealt with that has a complete package, and does all of their own R&D.

USMC i see, I was born at Cherry Point when my Father was stationed there.

Thank you for what you have given us!
thanks for making me a fan now lets get some R&d for my 00 ss
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Old 07-21-2009, 03:42 AM   #24
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how many miles do you have on the suspension?
Approx 15k. Bought the car with the suspension already on it, put 8k on it since. Daily driver, all street.

Quote:
Originally Posted by usmcjlp View Post
LSXJunkie, thanks that's exactly what I was looking for. Having done suspension work with Jeeps, I know that when you first install a suspension it feels like a dramatic improvement. But like with anything, after you have it a while you begin to see things you would change. Just a part of modding.

How have the bushings held up over time? Have you had any suspension noise develop over time?
Bushings are fine thus far at I believe 15k miles. They're poly, and I've seen them last 4 times that.
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Old 07-21-2009, 06:57 AM   #25
YancyJohns
 
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Drives: Camaro Performers Magazine
Join Date: May 2009
Location: South East
Posts: 121
I personally have road in the DSE Test car and have one on order. If I was racing my car in compitition and wanted a fully adjustable suspension I might consider Peddler. But, as stated above; kit 1 is for looks over performance w/ the rear taller than the front, kit 2 is taller in the front than the rear w/ an European look. Furthermore, I'm not going w/ larger wheel. I'm going w/ a 20" Forgeline 3-piece wheel that will decrease the unsprung weight. As for testing, DSE is out ever weekend across the country testing their cars. Call them and get an event schedule and get a ride in one yourself and then decide vs saying they have an amazing kit and still waiting for it. Customer service, well you've answered that for yourself.
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Camaro Performers Magazine SS/RS- 416 stroker, MagnaCharger TVS2300, DSE Sway, Baer 6S Brakes, Forgeline Wheels, BFG Rival, JBA Long tube/Exhaust, Center-Force Clutch, BMR-sfc,ta,tr, Energy Suspension poly kit, ADM CAI & Fuel pump, Norris PCV/Tune, Lingenfelter GT-9 cam, DSS 9" rear ind rear, Innov. West pulleys/8 rib, Pedders Super cloil-overs, MGW shifter,/Seibon/ Anvil carbon Fiber. Owner-American Street Car Series and as seen on R U Faster than a Redneck?...lol
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