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Old 07-21-2009, 07:20 PM   #1
speedy6963
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100% stock retuned for e85

Gained 25whp in the midrange and 20whp at the peak, nice gains for $2.00/gallon fuel


NOTE:

Just to state this so everyone is clear, DO NOT PUT E85 in your new camaro, it will void your warranty, and will not run properly without a tune specificaly for the fuel.
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Old 07-21-2009, 07:25 PM   #2
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You mean to tell me that you get more HP from E85 than plain 93 octain!

And you cant get that stuff on Long Island!!
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Old 07-21-2009, 08:55 PM   #3
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very cool. now get some new 1/4 times...
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Old 07-21-2009, 09:16 PM   #4
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Old 07-22-2009, 02:42 AM   #5
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don't you need to change out fuel lines and injectors because of materiel before running E85

or is the camaro all ready ok and fine to do so


but still sweet good job
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Old 07-22-2009, 03:12 AM   #6
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You mean to tell me that you get more HP from E85 than plain 93 octain!

And you cant get that stuff on Long Island!!
Somebody correct me if im wrong but E85 is supposed to have a higher equivalent octane rating... something like 104.
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Old 07-22-2009, 03:44 AM   #7
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Somebody correct me if im wrong but E85 is supposed to have a higher equivalent octane rating... something like 104.
Correct, but there are drawbacks to running E85

One, it is very corrosive.

Two, you need a lot more of it to do the job, so unless the stock injectors can flow enough to do so, you may have to do an injector swap

Three, the lubricating properties of Ethanol is not as good as gasoline, so expect the life expectancy of pumps, lines, intake valves, etc to be shortened

Four, unless you adjust the spark timing more aggressively you won't make any more power

Five, catalytic coverters hate em

And lastely, you get worse MPG with it.
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Old 07-22-2009, 12:47 PM   #8
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Correct, but there are drawbacks to running E85

One, it is very corrosive.

Two, you need a lot more of it to do the job, so unless the stock injectors can flow enough to do so, you may have to do an injector swap

Three, the lubricating properties of Ethanol is not as good as gasoline, so expect the life expectancy of pumps, lines, intake valves, etc to be shortened

Four, unless you adjust the spark timing more aggressively you won't make any more power

Five, catalytic coverters hate em

And lastely, you get worse MPG with it.
1. E85 is not highly corrosive, you are thinking of Methanol

2. Need about 30% more and the stock camaro injectors are up to the task

3. Pump and lines on cars built before 1990 have issues, newer stuff works fine

4. E85 with its 105 octane will allow you to run more timing ( and on turbo applications MORE BOOST, i personally have made over 730whp on a 2.0 4 cylinder using E85 )

5. more dissinformation, catalytic converters have ZERO issues with e85

6. only worse mpg on engines not purpose built to run e85 ( with 14-1 compression or turbo )

I personally have been running e85 in 1 car or another since 1999
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Old 07-22-2009, 01:08 PM   #9
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1. E85 is not highly corrosive, you are thinking of Methanol

2. Need about 30% more and the stock camaro injectors are up to the task

3. Pump and lines on cars built before 1990 have issues, newer stuff works fine

4. E85 with its 105 octane will allow you to run more timing ( and on turbo applications MORE BOOST, i personally have made over 730whp on a 2.0 4 cylinder using E85 )

5. more dissinformation, catalytic converters have ZERO issues with e85

6. only worse mpg on engines not purpose built to run e85 ( with 14-1 compression or turbo )

I personally have been running e85 in 1 car or another since 1999

I agree with everything you say but #6 (MPG). I think eventually the tech will be there, but we aren't quite there yet. I pulled this from the wiki (I know shouldn't rely on it, but it has been also stated on othere sites (consumer reports test etc):

Ethanol-based engines
Ethanol is most commonly used to power automobiles, though it may be used to power other vehicles, such as farm tractors and airplanes. Ethanol (E100) consumption in an engine is approximately 51% higher than for gasoline since the energy per unit volume of ethanol is 34% lower than for gasoline.[16][17] However, the higher compression ratios in an ethanol-only engine allow for increased power output and better fuel economy than could be obtained with lower compression ratios.[18][19] In general, ethanol-only engines are tuned to give slightly better power and torque output than gasoline-powered engines. In flexible fuel vehicles, the lower compression ratio requires tunings that give the same output when using either gasoline or hydrated ethanol. For maximum use of ethanol's benefits, a much higher compression ratio should be used,[20] which would render that engine unsuitable for gasoline use. When ethanol fuel availability allows high-compression ethanol-only vehicles to be practical, the fuel efficiency of such engines should be equal to or greater than current gasoline engines. Current high compression ethanol-only engine designs are approximately 20-30% less fuel efficient than their gasoline-only counterparts.[21]

A 2004 MIT study[22] and an earlier paper published by the Society of Automotive Engineers[23] identify a method to exploit the characteristics of fuel ethanol substantially better than mixing it with gasoline. The method presents the possibility of leveraging the use of alcohol to achieve definite improvement over the cost-effectiveness of hybrid electric. The improvement consists of using dual-fuel direct-injection of pure alcohol (or the azeotrope or E85) and gasoline, in any ratio up to 100% of either, in a turbocharged, high compression-ratio, small-displacement engine having performance similar to an engine having twice the displacement. Each fuel is carried separately, with a much smaller tank for alcohol. The high-compression (which increases efficiency) engine will run on ordinary gasoline under low-power cruise conditions. Alcohol is directly injected into the cylinders (and the gasoline injection simultaneously reduced) only when necessary to suppress ‘knock’ such as when significantly accelerating. Direct cylinder injection raises the already high octane rating of ethanol up to an effective 130. The calculated over-all reduction of gasoline use and CO2 emission is 30%. The consumer cost payback time shows a 4:1 improvement over turbo-diesel and a 5:1 improvement over hybrid. In addition, the problems of water absorption into pre-mixed gasoline (causing phase separation), supply issues of multiple mix ratios and cold-weather starting are avoided.

Ethanol's higher octane rating allows an increase of an engine's compression ratio for increased thermal efficiency.[18] In one study, complex engine controls and increased exhaust gas recirculation allowed a compression ratio of 19.5 with fuels ranging from neat ethanol to E50. Thermal efficiency up to approximately that for a diesel was achieved.[24] This would result in the MPG (miles per gallon) of a dedicated ethanol vehicle to be about the same as one burning gasoline.

Since 1989 there have also been ethanol engines based on the diesel principle operating in Sweden.[25] They are used primarily in city buses, but also in distribution trucks and waste collectors. The engines, made by Scania, have a modified compression ratio, and the fuel (known as ED95) used is a mix of 93.6 % ethanol and 3.6 % ignition improver, and 2.8% denaturants.[26] The ignition improver makes it possible for the fuel to ignite in the diesel combustion cycle. It is then also possible to use the energy efficiency of the diesel principle with ethanol.


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Old 07-22-2009, 04:24 PM   #10
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So am I understanding this correctly? When I get my camaro I can put E85 in there without changing ANYTHING in the car and I will have MORE HP and torque but less MPG? I thought cars had to have that ''flex fuel" or some s**t in order to run it lol
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Old 07-22-2009, 04:30 PM   #11
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blown, you can not just dump e85 in it. His post said he got his motor tuned for e85.

thus more likely voiding your power train warrenty.
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Old 07-22-2009, 04:33 PM   #12
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blown, you can not just dump e85 in it. His post said he got his motor tuned for e85.

thus more likely voiding your power train warrenty.
thanks thats what I figured, I thought maybe you can just dump it in but needed to retune to see gains. thanks for clearing that up!
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Old 07-22-2009, 06:36 PM   #13
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My Tahoe is flex fuel and I use E85 in it regularly. It averages a 17% loss in MPG, but when saving 50 cents a gallon or more, it's worth it!!
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Old 07-22-2009, 07:07 PM   #14
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My Tahoe is flex fuel and I use E85 in it regularly. It averages a 17% loss in MPG, but when saving 50 cents a gallon or more, it's worth it!!

barely. thats the trade-off with E85.

yes, it costs less,
but you will see a loss in mpg.

do the math on how much you are spending vs the mileage for e85 vs gasoline. probably wont be much in the long run.
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Old 07-22-2009, 07:13 PM   #15
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You all know how much I like Ethanol -- This is really cool!!!
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Old 07-22-2009, 08:47 PM   #16
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Old 07-22-2009, 10:01 PM   #17
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I would love to have a performance-built E85 Camaro, and I have a very sincere interest in the possibility of investing in this technology. As a result, the concern I have is what it would take to convert the L99 or LS3 to use the E85 technology. If it were only a tune away from E85, then GM would be touting the Camaro as a green muscle car. Since GM has not released such a tune, I have to assume that somewhere in GM's research there was reason to believe that the engine is simply not going to last its warranty with E85.

Preferably, I'd like someone with ethanol engineering experience to explain to us the difference between a block readied for E85 and the same block readied for premium pump gas. I'd also like to understand what would go into tuning the Camaro to run on E85 and what complications would result from applying high-performance forced induction onto an engine with E85 tuning and technology.
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Old 07-22-2009, 11:31 PM   #18
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Preferably, I'd like someone with ethanol engineering experience to explain to us the difference between a block readied for E85 and the same block readied for premium pump gas. I'd also like to understand what would go into tuning the Camaro to run on E85 and what complications would result from applying high-performance forced induction onto an engine with E85 tuning and technology.
I'd like this professionally answered, too...in the meantime (). I'm 99% positive, Blur, that a vehicle's readiness to accept E85 has nothing to do with the engine block itself. Rather, anything else that comes in contact with the fuel because it corrodes certain materials. For instance, even if only a section of fuel line isn't spece'd for E85, there's risk of failure, however remote.

As for performance...there are no complications, assuming the tune (timing adjustment, etc) is done properly. The only major limiting factor in boosted applications (aside from head gaskets) is knock; when the fuel detonates premature to the spark ignition. This happens when the A/F mixture is compressed to pressures beyond what the fuel can withstand (See: Octane rating). Most pump gas applications run 93 Octane, so the fuel becomes the limiting factor in how much boost, and therefore power, you can run. E85 is equivalent to roughly 104 Octane...race fuel. Imagine the possibilities!
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Old 07-23-2009, 12:15 AM   #19
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barely. thats the trade-off with E85.

yes, it costs less,
but you will see a loss in mpg.

do the math on how much you are spending vs the mileage for e85 vs gasoline. probably wont be much in the long run.
You're right..doing the math is important to figuring it's worth. I figured out that I break even for the MPG loss at 42 cents difference between E85 and unleaded. Right now, E85is about 46-50 cents cheaper than regular unleaded in Colorado, so I'm barely saving. When unleaded was running 3.80 a gallon last year, I was paying 2.39 a gallon for E85. That was saving me big time!! Even when I'm breaking even though, I prefer to go with E85 because it's just a little less oil we have to import and the money stays at home and supports our farmers.
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:09 AM   #20
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At first glance 20-25rwhp increase with E85 seems great, but it was tuned. A good custum tune on 93-octane will get you 20-25rwhp also. So to me there is no hp increase in the gas, it is in the tune, right?
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:15 AM   #21
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tuning is the way to go no matter which fuel you wish to use
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:25 AM   #22
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John/Speedy,

What was the horsepower when you tuned the car with 93?

I am at 82% with my injectors now. Stock I was at 72% .

The current fuel injectors and pumps in the Camaro are not capable of having a margin of safety to run the extra volume required for E85.

Gasoline makes more power than the E85 in an NA application. It's when you introduce other factors such as cooling will the you see benifits from the E85. And that is at an additional cost.


BTW, nice runs at Cordova!!



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Old 07-23-2009, 09:31 AM   #23
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At first glance 20-25rwhp increase with E85 seems great, but it was tuned. A good custum tune on 93-octane will get you 20-25rwhp also. So to me there is no hp increase in the gas, it is in the tune, right?
BINGO!


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Old 07-23-2009, 10:41 AM   #24
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I have built fuel injected race motors with 15:1 compression ratio's and instead of running $8/gal 110 race fuel i ran straight e85 and could fill up at a lot of stations around here. The motor ran great, better throttle response and reved quicker, plus when i pulled it apart it still looked great. I have no idea about the affect on the mileage (it was a race motor, don't really track that stuff) was but the power did increase around 8%.

I love e85 for the fact that it was a great alternative to more expensive fuel and it runs as well if not better in most cases. Also ethanol is not as corrosive as methanol, and i have never had a problem running it threw the fuel injection system.

With that being said from what i understand flex fuel vehicles come with different rubber components that come in contact with the e85, as overtime the e85 can dry out the rubber quicker. In the past 5 years i have used it i have never noticed this affect. Now if all gm vehicles built with these new more resistant rubber for e85, i have no idea. But it would take a long time for the e85 to dry the rubber out enough to cause problems. Plus almost all fuel lines etc... are steel anymore. I would imagine there is only a short rubber section for the fuel injector lines (so the engine can move) and then the filler tube is likely rubber, and then maybe o-rings in the injectors themselves.

I am very curious as to what you did to the tune to richen the fuel mixture enough, what you put the timing to etc... Also what tuner did you use? if it is EFI live i would greatly appreciate it if you posted your tune file so i could look threw it.

The only problem with setting up a vehicle with e85 that wasn't built from the factor is the fact you will need to tune it to run on 100% e85 fuel or 100% regular petrol. The reason being in flex fuel vehicles you can pour a mixture of both in as they have sensors to tell what % of ethanol is in the fuel, and then correct the ecm parameters accordingly. I don't think the camaro would have this sensor from gm as it isn't a flex fuel vehicle. Thus would run poorly if you had half a tank of e85 and half regular gas.
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Old 07-23-2009, 10:52 AM   #25
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Oh, and E85 when tuned properly will always make more power then gas. Reason being e85 has less btu's then gas, but to run at a stoich level you burn much more e85 thus actually have more total btus making more power.
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