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Old 01-15-2014, 12:41 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jered@DKT View Post
Just by glancing, couldn't this happen by the cam bolt backing out.
Decel and then a quick accel?

I'd think they'd engineer these better. This is nothing to play with. So easy just to go 3 bolt in the first place.
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Old 01-15-2014, 12:42 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohdeo16 View Post
I guess it's possible but it was a new bolt, torqued to spec, with loctite. And from what I see on the cam, the pin sheared but looks like the bolt held the gear pretty tight against the cam for a period of time until finally the timing got thrown out enough to f stuff up.
But the car would have run like shit before it finally hit.

I'm guessing of course.
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Old 01-15-2014, 01:23 PM   #28
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Well, the pin is simply there for initial alignment; it's the bolt's job to hold things tight enough to keep anything from slipping. Something would have had to seize suddenly to break the clamping force of the bolt enough to allow the pin to shear. Or, the bolt simply stretched or loosened for whatever reason. Still, only speculative.

I had my three-bolt up and running and, out of paranoia, rechecked a couple of specs. I found out that the torque I applied to the cam bolts was incorrect, because the spec I used was incorrect. I had to take the front cover off a second time to correct it.

There were a few swear words incorporated during that second endeavor.
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Old 01-15-2014, 01:44 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strych9 View Post
Well, the pin is simply there for initial alignment; it's the bolt's job to hold things tight enough to keep anything from slipping. Something would have had to seize suddenly to break the clamping force of the bolt enough to allow the pin to shear. Or, the bolt simply stretched or loosened for whatever reason. Still, only speculative.

I had my three-bolt up and running and, out of paranoia, rechecked a couple of specs. I found out that the torque I applied to the cam bolts was incorrect, because the spec I used was incorrect. I had to take the front cover off a second time to correct it.

There were a few swear words incorporated during that second endeavor.
Ugh....... i know what you mean. I enjoy working on my cars to make them better.

I HATE going back and fixing broken shit to just put it back the same or having to go back in for a mistake.

Or something you forgot. I forgot to torque a cam sprocket on my sons Jeep a few months back. Sucked but it's an overhead cam to I was able to lift the valve cover.
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Old 01-15-2014, 02:18 PM   #30
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Decel and then a quick accel?

I'd think they'd engineer these better. This is nothing to play with. So easy just to go 3 bolt in the first place.
A local car had his bolts back out of his 3 bolt cam.
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Old 01-15-2014, 02:20 PM   #31
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I really want to put a cam in but really most people are getting 20-50k miles before something goes boom in the engine? Is that really what a lot of you are dealing with? I know you gotta pay to play but Damn.

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Old 01-15-2014, 02:43 PM   #32
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I really want to put a cam in but really most people are getting 20-50k miles before something goes boom in the engine? Is that really what a lot of you are dealing with? I know you gotta pay to play but Damn.

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I don't think that at all...if someone has a problem with a motor you're far more likely to see them posting about that vs. "been driving my cammed car for 60k and it's still great". So I think what you are seeing are a lot of horror stories.
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Old 01-15-2014, 02:46 PM   #33
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I don't think that at all...if someone has a problem with a motor you're far more likely to see them posting about that vs. "been driving my cammed car for 60k and it's still great". So I think what you are seeing are a lot of horror stories.
I agree with this as well. And you really don't hear thaaat many stories about people's cams failing compared to the number of people who have a cammed car.
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Old 01-15-2014, 03:18 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jered@DKT View Post
A local car had his bolts back out of his 3 bolt cam.
Yikes. But it would make the timing cover leak before the cam advanced. OR the cam bearings would wear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly@PCMofNC View Post
I don't think that at all...if someone has a problem with a motor you're far more likely to see them posting about that vs. "been driving my cammed car for 60k and it's still great". So I think what you are seeing are a lot of horror stories.
Yup. Agreed.

TONS of aftermarket cams installed out there. Lot's of failures but lot's of different reasons for failure too. And still a relatively small number of failures to installs.
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Old 01-15-2014, 04:12 PM   #35
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However I do think that there is a much higher percentage of after market cams fail to factory installed cams.
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Old 01-15-2014, 04:20 PM   #36
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However I do think that there is a much higher percentage of after market cams fail to factory installed cams.
Agreed, although the majority of OEM cams that fail do so because of a locked-up lifter roller.

Again, speculating...maybe our OEM lifters aren't as up to the task as we think they are. Added load from increased valve spring tension and higher lift may be causing the lifters themselves to initiate the failure of the cam.
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Old 01-15-2014, 04:33 PM   #37
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Agreed, although the majority of OEM cams that fail do so because of a locked-up lifter roller.

Again, speculating...maybe our OEM lifters aren't as up to the task as we think they are. Added load from increased valve spring tension and higher lift may be causing the lifters themselves to initiate the failure of the cam.
Could be but I changed my lifters, pushrods and springs when I had the cam done. LS7 lifters. Fairly mild cam.

I had 2 lifters pit up (still rolling) and slowly grind 2 cam lobes to where the finite metal wore the bearings out. Plus a few bits of metal got into the system as well. I'd have never known there was a problem if I hadn't lost oil pressure.
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Old 01-15-2014, 04:37 PM   #38
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I, too, ran Mobile 1 on my car. May be irrelevant but many of these failures seem to be running this particular oil. I don't know if it's actually related.

Mine started with the lobes/lifter rollers as well.
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Old 01-15-2014, 08:18 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Jered@DKT View Post
A local car had his bolts back out of his 3 bolt cam.
Local car should have used loctite and a set of arp cam bolts. Bet it wouldn't of happened.
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Old 01-15-2014, 08:31 PM   #40
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I never got why gm veered off the 3 bolt path. Is it lighter, or were they just saving money?
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Old 01-15-2014, 08:32 PM   #41
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Loctite and a locking plate, my bolts aint going anywhere.
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Old 01-15-2014, 08:53 PM   #42
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Local car should have used loctite and a set of arp cam bolts. Bet it wouldn't of happened.
Yeah couldn't tell you. He had a few odd problems..
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Old 01-16-2014, 12:21 AM   #43
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Loctite doesn't work well if a slight amount of oil is present. Additonally, the clamping force from a given torque is greatly affected by lubricated threads and flanges. If a toque is specified for dry threads, even loctite may result in the same torque value yielding a bolt that isn't supposed to. Repeated doses of carb cleaner or something to cut and remove remaining oil could save a lot down the road. What are the gm overhaul instructions here?

Also, I dont know if the cam bolt is tty? It is a single bolt in a high frequency load location. If i were the engineer, i might select tty here. Are you guys installing a new cam bolt?

The surface finish between the cam gear and cam is important for the torque handling of the system as well. It could be that this surface mates a little under load and won't have the same holding force if reused.

Just some things that might help...
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Old 01-16-2014, 12:41 AM   #44
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I never got why gm veered off the 3 bolt path. Is it lighter, or were they just saving money?
A single bolt cam may or may not be causing failures just because of it being one bolt but I'm certain some of them would not have failed if they were 3 bolt. I'm with you, I just don't get the one bolt thing.

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Local car should have used loctite and a set of arp cam bolts. Bet it wouldn't of happened.
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Old 01-16-2014, 01:20 AM   #45
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The main reason Mobil is the oil used on most failures is because its by far the most used oil. Its only going to have that outcome from that one simple fact. I will continue to use Mobil. I may use a zinc additive though.
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Old 01-16-2014, 04:35 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by TannerJPowell View Post
Loctite doesn't work well if a slight amount of oil is present. Additonally, the clamping force from a given torque is greatly affected by lubricated threads and flanges. If a toque is specified for dry threads, even loctite may result in the same torque value yielding a bolt that isn't supposed to. Repeated doses of carb cleaner or something to cut and remove remaining oil could save a lot down the road. What are the gm overhaul instructions here?

Also, I dont know if the cam bolt is tty? It is a single bolt in a high frequency load location. If i were the engineer, i might select tty here. Are you guys installing a new cam bolt?

The surface finish between the cam gear and cam is important for the torque handling of the system as well. It could be that this surface mates a little under load and won't have the same holding force if reused.

Just some things that might help...
Cool story. But it doesn't apply here.

I've been doing cam swaps the same way and have has "0" issues and will continue to do it this way. I know of many shops that do it this way as well.
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Old 01-16-2014, 08:28 AM   #47
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Cool story. But it doesn't apply here.

I've been doing cam swaps the same way and have has "0" issues and will continue to do it this way. I know of many shops that do it this way as well.
The same way as?

What is this way you speak of?

A three bolt setup? I would agree with that.

I just see people going die hard for one bolt setups in here and there could be a way to make it work. Also a chance that increased loads from bigger cams can't be supported by the available single bolt clamping force.

Again, just trying to give some useful input for single bolt setups.

Removal of oil is certainly key to loctite working and it's no story. It is fact.

I will find information on whether the single bolt is torque to yield and update.
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Old 01-16-2014, 08:38 AM   #48
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The same way as?

What is this way you speak of?

A three bolt setup? I would agree with that.

I just see people going die hard for one bolt setups in here and there could be a way to make it work. Also a chance that increased loads from bigger cams can't be supported by the available single bolt clamping force.

Again, just trying to give some useful input for single bolt setups.

Removal of oil is certainly key to loctite working and it's no story. It is fact.

I will find information on whether the single bolt is torque to yield and update.
From my understanding, the single cam bolt is TTY. But I used a new bolt when that old cam was installed.

In answer to your question from before, I will be using a 3 bolt cam, arp bolts, enough loctite to seal a vault. They won't back out next time.
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Old 01-16-2014, 09:33 AM   #49
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The main reason Mobil is the oil used on most failures is because its by far the most used oil. Its only going to have that outcome from that one simple fact. I will continue to use Mobil. I may use a zinc additive though.
I did think about this too.

We are still using Mobile1 in Bonnies Vette. The people who engineered these cars know what they are doing.

Aftermarket cams, though, are another story so it just make me wonder.
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Old 01-16-2014, 09:58 AM   #50
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I did think about this too.

We are still using Mobile1 in Bonnies Vette. The people who engineered these cars know what they are doing.

Aftermarket cams, though, are another story so it just make me wonder.
My dealership that does all my oil changes don't recommend Mobil 1 at all anymore. Much cheaper with dexos blend anyway, so I'm good with it.
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