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Old 05-18-2014, 03:33 AM   #51
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Subscribed. Thanks T-bone. Why is this not a sticky yet?
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Old 05-19-2014, 11:03 AM   #52
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Thanks for this thread guys, it's really helpful for my preparation for my upcoming track day at VIR in 2 weeks. I do have a few questions though and I apologize in advance for the noob questions, lol.

Let me also say that I don't plan on being ANYWHERE even near the "limit" in this car. The last thing I want to do is wad up my brand new Spring Edition SS and have to bring it home on a rollback, lol. High or "top" speed is meaningless to me. For me, it's all about proper entry, apex and a good exit in the corners. I could care less about going 100+ mph, but getting through "Roller-Coaster" and a good launch out of "Hogpen" is what I'm there for. That is plenty enough thrill and fun for me. I've been an iRacing member since it started and have raced hundreds of laps there in the sim which is amazingly accurate, so I know the line very well. But that don't give you the "seat of the pants" feel which I'll have to get used to. But I plan on letting a lot of cars pass on the straights, lol. Anyway, here are a few things I was wondering:

1 - Can and will the dealership make the modifications to my braking system (pads, stainless steel lines and fluid) or will I need to go to a High Performance shop of some type?

2 - If I go to an independent shop or to the dealership for that matter, will making those mods void any warranties in any way? My car is brand new and I don't want to risk messing anything up in that regard.

3 - Is there any adverse effect of just keeping the "racing" brake pads and fluid on/in the car for normal street use or do they need to be swapped back after the track day? I assume the ss brake lines are irrelevant to this.

4 - Do the rotors have to be turned when you swap the pads out? Like I say, this car is brand new with only 600 miles on it up to now, and I'd hate to have to turn the rotors with that few miles.

5 - Does VIR have Nitrogen to fill your tires? I'm pretty sure that's what's in my SS because it has the green stem caps on it.

Thanks, and again, sorry if these are noobish questions, lol. I'm sure I'll have more!
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Old 05-19-2014, 12:04 PM   #53
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Plan on running up as many break-in miles as you can between now and then. It's not just the engine that needs its parts to wear in to each other.


3. There is no adverse effect from flushing with better brake fluid. Track pads are very likely to be noisy in street use, absolutely will be dusty, and are somewhat harder on rotors. On the other hand, entry-level track pads (HP+, XP8, etc.) have at least adequate cold bite to be usable on the street if you can deal with noise and dust.

I'm very hesitant to even suggest running this first event on OE pads, even though people have and you claim to not be interested in "100+". That's what you say now . . . before you're out there thinking "I can stay with that guy I just pointed by" or your instructor tells you he thinks you're faster than him (this happens, trust me).


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Old 05-19-2014, 12:26 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balok View Post
Thanks for this thread guys, it's really helpful for my preparation for my upcoming track day at VIR in 2 weeks. I do have a few questions though and I apologize in advance for the noob questions, lol.

Let me also say that I don't plan on being ANYWHERE even near the "limit" in this car. The last thing I want to do is wad up my brand new Spring Edition SS and have to bring it home on a rollback, lol. High or "top" speed is meaningless to me. For me, it's all about proper entry, apex and a good exit in the corners. I could care less about going 100+ mph, but getting through "Roller-Coaster" and a good launch out of "Hogpen" is what I'm there for. That is plenty enough thrill and fun for me. I've been an iRacing member since it started and have raced hundreds of laps there in the sim which is amazingly accurate, so I know the line very well. But that don't give you the "seat of the pants" feel which I'll have to get used to. But I plan on letting a lot of cars pass on the straights, lol. Anyway, here are a few things I was wondering:

1 - Can and will the dealership make the modifications to my braking system (pads, stainless steel lines and fluid) or will I need to go to a High Performance shop of some type?

2 - If I go to an independent shop or to the dealership for that matter, will making those mods void any warranties in any way? My car is brand new and I don't want to risk messing anything up in that regard.

3 - Is there any adverse effect of just keeping the "racing" brake pads and fluid on/in the car for normal street use or do they need to be swapped back after the track day? I assume the ss brake lines are irrelevant to this.

4 - Do the rotors have to be turned when you swap the pads out? Like I say, this car is brand new with only 600 miles on it up to now, and I'd hate to have to turn the rotors with that few miles.

5 - Does VIR have Nitrogen to fill your tires? I'm pretty sure that's what's in my SS because it has the green stem caps on it.

Thanks, and again, sorry if these are noobish questions, lol. I'm sure I'll have more!
Answers to a few of your questions based on my experience.
1- I was just at Watkins Glen with a ZL1 owner and his Chevy Dealer did the brake fluid replacement for him for a nominal fee. I don't know about pad swaps or stainless lines. I do my own work so I have done all of this myself.
For your first time out you can use the stock Brembo pads. They are much better than anyone gives them credit for. I have gotten five track days at Watkins Glen out of the stock front pads and they are finally ready to replace.

3- Track pads are noisy and make a lot of dust (the stock Brembo pads also make a lot of dust) if you are willing to live with the noise and dust then an entry level track pad will be fine on the street.

4- The rotors don't have to be turned when you swap pads but based on which way you are going track to street or street to track, the rotors will need to be cleaned and the pads rebedded. Search Stoptech's Tech Info, they have specific topics on pad swaps and the actions required.

Hope this helps some.
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Old 05-19-2014, 01:28 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by td195f View Post
Answers to a few of your questions based on my experience.
1- I was just at Watkins Glen with a ZL1 owner and his Chevy Dealer did the brake fluid replacement for him for a nominal fee. I don't know about pad swaps or stainless lines. I do my own work so I have done all of this myself.
For your first time out you can use the stock Brembo pads. They are much better than anyone gives them credit for. I have gotten five track days at Watkins Glen out of the stock front pads and they are finally ready to replace.

3- Track pads are noisy and make a lot of dust (the stock Brembo pads also make a lot of dust) if you are willing to live with the noise and dust then an entry level track pad will be fine on the street.

4- The rotors don't have to be turned when you swap pads but based on which way you are going track to street or street to track, the rotors will need to be cleaned and the pads rebedded. Search Stoptech's Tech Info, they have specific topics on pad swaps and the actions required.

Hope this helps some.

Adding to what was written above:
1 - Results will vary by dealer. I bet it would be hard to find a dealer willing to do stainless lines, but pads and fluid less so.
2 - Pads and fluid are maintenance items, as long as you use the approved fluids, no warranty issues. Stainless lines on the other hand modify the system. I doubt you would have issues, but if you lose a caliper while under warranty (very rare), there's a slight possibility the dealer blames the lines.

3- In addition to what td195f wrote, SOME racing pads are aggressive on rotors, and you may go through them more quickly running those pads all the time, and SOME pads (typically the more advanced compounds) don't work as well when cold, so you'll want to be a little cautious for the first stop or two in the morning. The cold stop problem seems to be less and less of a problem over the years, many pads are fine cold or hot.

5 - I have no idea if VIR has nitrogen for tire fills, I doubt it though. My advice is to forget the nitrogen and just add regular air when you need it. You'll lose what little benefit you get from the Nitrogen, but it will be much more convenient.

Have fun.
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Old 05-19-2014, 03:12 PM   #56
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Well, this is escalating rather quickly. I should have done this before I posted here so I'd know a little more about it. But I just spoke with my friend who is the GM of the dealership where I got my SS. We've been close friends for more than 20 years so I know I can trust him. I asked him about what they could do, and about all they can offer me is a set of higher performance Brembo pads for the front, and swap out the fluid. He also said that any mods I make like the stainless steel lines would probably void my warranty on the braking system. It is unclear however, whether that would void the warranty on let's say the master cylinder if it goes out though, so I don't know what to do, lol. This is getting a lot more involved that I imagined, but if it keeps me from doing something like this at 9:20, it's worth it.

Last edited by Balok; 05-19-2014 at 03:48 PM.
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Old 05-19-2014, 03:33 PM   #57
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Does anyone have knowledge of HANS (or other brands) type safety devices? After several months and doctors visits I am learning about my neck problems. I want to continue to do AutoX and HPDE events, but I also want to protect my neck the best I can to minimize further damage. I have been using here and google to learn what I can, but I also want to turn to people with knowledge who can point me in the right direction.
Thanks

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Old 05-19-2014, 04:13 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Balok View Post
Well, this is escalating rather quickly. I should have done this before I posted here so I'd know a little more about it. But I just spoke with my friend who is the GM of the dealership where I got my SS. We've been close friends for more than 20 years so I know I can trust him. I asked him about what they could do, and about all they can offer me is a set of higher performance Brembo pads for the front, and swap out the fluid. He also said that any mods I make like the stainless steel lines would probably void my warranty on the braking system. It is unclear however, whether that would void the warranty on let's say the master cylinder if it goes out though, so I don't know what to do, lol. This is getting a lot more involved that I imagined, but if it keeps me from doing something like this at 9:20, it's worth it.
Don't get overwhelmed with info. You will be fine with the stock brake lines and stock pads. The fluid is a good idea because boiled brake fluid is harder to cope with, but not a requirement in the novice groups. Drive as fast as you are comfortable; you don't have to be "on the gas" or "on the brakes" all the time as in racing.

SS brake lines improve pedal firmness/feel. Therefore your braking is more precise and can occur later, but we're splitting hairs here. The brake fluid upgrade will keep you safer, but I doubt anyone else had upgraded their brake lines or fluid in the green (novice) group I ran in. Just be aware of the possibility of fade later in each session after a high speed straight.

Edit: I looked at the video and that guy had a system brake failure, not overheated fluid or pads.

Basically brakes fail with pedal to floor: boiled fluid or brake fade (pedal normal but car not slowing down as well).

If you notice the brakes fading inform your instructor and slow down for a lap or 2. If your pedal goes to the floor - pump it a few times to build pressure!

Someone else with more track time than I may want to offer their opinion as well.

Last edited by wakespeak; 05-19-2014 at 04:47 PM.
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Old 05-20-2014, 01:49 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balok View Post
Well, this is escalating rather quickly. I should have done this before I posted here so I'd know a little more about it. But I just spoke with my friend who is the GM of the dealership where I got my SS. We've been close friends for more than 20 years so I know I can trust him. I asked him about what they could do, and about all they can offer me is a set of higher performance Brembo pads for the front, and swap out the fluid. He also said that any mods I make like the stainless steel lines would probably void my warranty on the braking system. It is unclear however, whether that would void the warranty on let's say the master cylinder if it goes out though, so I don't know what to do, lol. This is getting a lot more involved that I imagined, but if it keeps me from doing something like this at 9:20, it's worth it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakespeak View Post
Don't get overwhelmed with info. You will be fine with the stock brake lines and stock pads. The fluid is a good idea because boiled brake fluid is harder to cope with, but not a requirement in the novice groups. Drive as fast as you are comfortable; you don't have to be "on the gas" or "on the brakes" all the time as in racing.

SS brake lines improve pedal firmness/feel. Therefore your braking is more precise and can occur later, but we're splitting hairs here. The brake fluid upgrade will keep you safer, but I doubt anyone else had upgraded their brake lines or fluid in the green (novice) group I ran in. Just be aware of the possibility of fade later in each session after a high speed straight.

Edit: I looked at the video and that guy had a system brake failure, not overheated fluid or pads.

Basically brakes fail with pedal to floor: boiled fluid or brake fade (pedal normal but car not slowing down as well).

If you notice the brakes fading inform your instructor and slow down for a lap or 2. If your pedal goes to the floor - pump it a few times to build pressure!

Someone else with more track time than I may want to offer their opinion as well.
Balok,

What you see in that video is indeed brake failure. Whether it is a malfunction, brake fluid boiling or brake pads fading they are ALL FAILURES!!! His car was setup for the track and he had a failure. If you want to avoid this type of thing then plan ahead. Do what is listed in the original posting and prepare your car. Could you possibly, maybe, kinda sorta get away with it using the stock brake pads and fluid, sure if you tenderfoot it. Do you really want to chance taking your brand new $45K car on to a RACETRACK and risk it? Do you like to play russian roulette?

Look, am I being harsh here, YES. The life or car I save just might be yours. There is no reset in real life. This is not iracing where you can hit reset when you crash. Prepare your car with the proper equipment from the jump and you will be a better and safer driver for it. Find a speed shop near you and build a report with them if you can't do the work yourself but get the work done the right way. The couple hundred you spend now could save you thousands later.

I mean you live in Nascar country FFS, there has got to be a shop around that can do this for you relatively cheap.

BTW, that crash you see at 9:20 probably cost that driver about $7-10K if the airbags went off because his insurance probably doesn't cover his car on a RACETRACK. Not to mention the CONCUSSION AND 1.5' GASH IN HIS HEAD.


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Old 05-20-2014, 09:32 AM   #60
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Do you really want to chance taking your brand new $45K car on to a RACETRACK and risk it? Do you like to play russian roulette? Look, am I being harsh here, YES. The life or car I save just might be yours. There is no reset in real life. This is not iracing...
Oh, make no mistake, I am not comparing this to iRacing in any way other than I know the layout of the track. Believe me, I know full well the seriousness this entails which is exactly why I'm talking to you fine folks. And you're absolutely right that a couple hundred bucks is nothing compared to totaling my new car so I intend to get these things done 100%. I'm just a complete noob and need guidance.

To that end, exactly what brand and model of pads, fluid and lines do you guys recommend? Unfortunately, I'm not a mechanic and I know absolutely nothing about high-performance stuff, so someone could sell and install something not even as good as the stock Brembo's for all I know. Also, if anyone knows a reputable and trustworthy high performance shop in the Greensboro/Winston-Salem area that would be greatly appreciated as well.
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Old 05-20-2014, 09:59 AM   #61
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Brake fluid - Either Motul RBF600 or Brembo LCF600 (at $20 per 1/2L). ATE200 ($17/L) is maybe a step back in terms of dry boiling point but is certainly usable when you're first getting into open tracking. You'll probably want at least 1.5 liters.

Pad suggestions have already been made. OE, HP+, and XP8 that I know of, and I'd generally put the XP8 at the top of that list for track use.


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Old 05-20-2014, 03:21 PM   #62
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OK, here's the final verdict!

Goodridge SS/Braided brake lines: from the cost he quoted me, it looks like the standard set, not the super duper set, but should be better than the stock rubber lines nonetheless, right? $175.00

Hawk HP+ pads: $330.00 for the set

Motul fluid

Not sure what he'll hit me with labor, but I know it won't be cheep in "Race City" (Mooresville, NC) lol. I was referred to this shop by a neighbor I met this weekend who also has a 5th Gen Camaro. He said this guy does most of the custom work for many people in the NC 5th Gen Camaro Club. I've seen some pics of his work and from the looks of it, he's very good. (crosses fingers)

And it also turns out that my neighbor is restoration manager at a restoration shop called "Classic Muscle" in Winston-Salem. He has his wife's silver SS parked in front of the house as I went by Saturday, and I stopped and introduced myself. I'm sure they thought I was a psycho or something, lol. They seem to be pretty cool folks.

Anyway, I'm rambling, lol. Thanks again everybody, and any final thoughts on the parts?
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Old 05-20-2014, 06:01 PM   #63
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OK, here's the final verdict!

Goodridge SS/Braided brake lines: from the cost he quoted me, it looks like the standard set, not the super duper set, but should be better than the stock rubber lines nonetheless, right? $175.00

Hawk HP+ pads: $330.00 for the set

Motul fluid

Not sure what he'll hit me with labor, but I know it won't be cheep in "Race City" (Mooresville, NC) lol. I was referred to this shop by a neighbor I met this weekend who also has a 5th Gen Camaro. He said this guy does most of the custom work for many people in the NC 5th Gen Camaro Club. I've seen some pics of his work and from the looks of it, he's very good. (crosses fingers)

And it also turns out that my neighbor is restoration manager at a restoration shop called "Classic Muscle" in Winston-Salem. He has his wife's silver SS parked in front of the house as I went by Saturday, and I stopped and introduced myself. I'm sure they thought I was a psycho or something, lol. They seem to be pretty cool folks.

Anyway, I'm rambling, lol. Thanks again everybody, and any final thoughts on the parts?
I tried a set of Hawk HP+ pads on my 1LE. The first day out with these pads, (they were bedded and on the car for the two hour drive to the track) I got the meatball flag (Mechanical problem - pit now) because the flag stations were seeing sparks off the front wheels of my car on the first session of the first day. The mechanic that the school had on hand and I inspected the front suspension, brakes and steering and found absolutely no evidence of rubbing or any other reason for sparks. Missed one session doing this. Ran the two afternoon sessions, no problem. The next morning, same thing, meatball flag for sparks. Inspected again, no reason. Took off the Hawk HP+ pads and reinstalled the Stock Brembo pads. Three track days later no meatball flag for any issue.
I am using SS Braided lines and Motul RB600 brake fluid and the stock Brembo pads.
Watch my video from my last track day at Watkins Glen in the Road Course/Track and Autocross - Official Road Track Videos Post #40 and you can see I am not taking it easy on my brakes. I have experienced absolutely no brake issues with the stock Brembo pads. I am not the fastest car on the track or the best driver, but I am in the High Intermediate / Advanced run group and am not running slow.
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Old 05-21-2014, 12:41 PM   #64
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OK T. I'm running out of time before my track event (practice) on Sunday.

My car is stuck at the dealer with service air bag issues and I have new tires going on Friday.

My issue is brake fluid and flushing the lines. Can I get a way with just sucking out the reservoir fluid and replacing that until I get time to replace it all? Basically some better than nothing. Hopefully I'll have time to do it right, but it's getting close now.
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Old 05-21-2014, 12:48 PM   #65
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Then fluid that you most want to get flushed out is the stuff that's sitting in the wheel cylinders and the flexible hoses that attach to them.

You don't need much more than a warm body who can follow directions when to press the brake pedal, when to hold it, and when to release it.


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Old 05-21-2014, 12:57 PM   #66
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Then fluid that you most want to get flushed out is the stuff that's sitting in the wheel cylinders and the flexible hoses that attach to them.

You don't need much more than a warm body who can follow directions when to press the brake pedal, when to hold it, and when to release it.


Norm
Thanks Norm... I hope to do this on Saturday
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Old 05-21-2014, 11:55 PM   #67
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Balok,

Goodridge are a good set. Decent price. I would never run Hawk pads on my car at the track, JMHO. Try Carbotech XP-10 or 12 front and XP-8 Rear. These are good pads and they are gently on the rotors. Good pads to learn on. You have to order them so I do not know when your event is but CTbrakes.com is direct. Motul 600 is good stuff, priced right @ $15ish

(If, and it is a BIG IF, I were to put Hawk pads on my car they would be the DCT-70/DCT30's or DCT30/hp+ combo but I would have to look at the track and check the speeds to decide which ones would be appropriate.)

Mike,

Yes, squeegee, or slurp, out what you can but you still need to bleed out the lines and calipers. The best way to do it is put your pads on and bleed, then go bed your brakes, getting into your ABS, and come back in and bleed again to get the most out of them the first time. Might need 4 bottles. You can never have extra brake fluid. You won't get it all and you will have some weepage at your bleeder screws on track the first time but don't sweat it.


Next time it will be easier and you will not have to bleed the second time because most of what you have in there will be DOT4 and you will just have to get the old stuff out. You really do not want old fluid when tracking so the safe bet is to bleed before every event.

T.
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The drag strip is like sniffing glue, it's cheap, it's a decent buzz, it doesn't last long and they are all the same.
Road racing is like China White Heroin, the buzz is stronger, the high lasts for hours, it's extremely addictive and they are all different.
I can't wait for my next
Track fix.
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Old 05-22-2014, 09:55 AM   #68
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Then fluid that you most want to get flushed out is the stuff that's sitting in the wheel cylinders and the flexible hoses that attach to them.

You don't need much more than a warm body who can follow directions when to press the brake pedal, when to hold it, and when to release it.


Norm
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Thanks Norm... I hope to do this on Saturday
It certainly helps to have a warm body that knows how to bleed brakes haha! I did the first round with my wife working the pedal off of verbal commands. The 2nd round I had a buddy that knew what was up by pedal feel. It took proabably 1/10th the time to make it through all 8 bleeders with him on the pedal.
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Old 05-22-2014, 01:07 PM   #69
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Balok,

Goodridge are a good set. Decent price. I would never run Hawk pads on my car at the track, JMHO. Try Carbotech...
Unfortunately, the parts have been ordered already so it is what is at this point. I'm going to use them for this track day, then swap them out with the stock Brembo pads after the event. If I enjoy this enough, I'll look into a different pad if I do this again. If it rains, I won't be on the track at all so no harm-no foul other than the money I lose. I'm not driving my car in the rain with the windows down, period. Thanks for the advice Tbone, and everyone else!
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Old 05-22-2014, 01:15 PM   #70
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Unfortunately, the parts have been ordered already so it is what is at this point. I'm going to use them for this track day, then swap them out with the stock Brembo pads after the event. If I enjoy this enough, I'll look into a different pad if I do this again. If it rains, I won't be on the track at all so no harm-no foul other than the money I lose. I'm not driving my car in the rain with the windows down, period. Thanks for the advice Tbone, and everyone else!
A lot of times they will allow windows up when it's raining.
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Old 05-22-2014, 01:29 PM   #71
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It certainly helps to have a warm body that knows how to bleed brakes haha! I did the first round with my wife working the pedal off of verbal commands. The 2nd round I had a buddy that knew what was up by pedal feel. It took proabably 1/10th the time to make it through all 8 bleeders with him on the pedal.
LOL... my wife used to be pretty good at it, but I'll defer to the buddy method or the dealer for this one.
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Old 05-22-2014, 02:20 PM   #72
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A lot of times they will allow windows up when it's raining.
That's nice to hear, although in the wet I'll be even slower than the conservative speed I plan on running if it's dry!
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Old 05-22-2014, 04:21 PM   #73
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Unfortunately, the parts have been ordered already so it is what is at this point. I'm going to use them for this track day, then swap them out with the stock Brembo pads after the event. If I enjoy this enough, I'll look into a different pad if I do this again. If it rains, I won't be on the track at all so no harm-no foul other than the money I lose. I'm not driving my car in the rain with the windows down, period. Thanks for the advice Tbone, and everyone else!
Even if it does rain and you must run with the window next to any occupied seat open, less will get in than you may be expecting, and almost none of that will be getting you wet. Just getting in and out of the car at your house in a pouring storm will let as much water in during the few seconds it takes you to open door/get out/shut door as five minutes lapping in a moderate but steady rain does.

Your speed probably makes some difference, as the slipstream is probably responsible for deflecting most of the raindrops just enough.

You will be running slower if it's wet, but you can probably learn even more about things like fine throttle modulation and making smooth control inputs.


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Old 05-22-2014, 07:15 PM   #74
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Ouch... those Carbotech pads are expensive...

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Old 05-22-2014, 08:53 PM   #75
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Regarding the rain - my interior got soaked on my first track day. Even at higher speeds, a fair amount of water still gets in. Most of the water was on the back seats and the sides of the front seats. I park my Camaro in the garage all the time and I left the windows down once we got home. It dried out fine. No weird mildew smells at all.

Several instructors there mentioned how a lot of experienced drivers would love the opportunity to drive on a wet track.
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