1LE Package; thoughts?

[briannutter]

I just put a post up in the sticky section for 12 disciples. Take a look at the post and see if you agree with me about the ingredients for a proper 1LE package. Let's generate some buzz!

[OverAnxious]

I think that idea died when the Corvette Z06 went from a stripper model with cloth seats to what ended up on showroom floors.

Personally, I'd rather have AC and my creature comforts and spend a few bucks on power mods

[Silverado]

Yeah, sorry, but this isn't going to be mostly a track car for the vast majority of the people. This will be anywhere from a daily driver to a weekend cruiser for 95-98% of the people that buy one. The trim levels and options should be geared towards that. The people that want to turn one of the best street cars in a long time into a track only car can do it by deleting all the stuff they don't want, putting in their own roll cages and racing harnesses, etc.

Most people will want their AC, their nice sound system, etc. Quite a few people will want leather, heated seats, power mirrors/windows/locks/seats, XM radio, etc.

Count me in that group, I want almost all the options (I will not pay for XM radio and I don't want any kind of navigation (give me a Garmin any day)) because while this will be my daily (seasonally) driver, it will also be my weekend cruiser. And, I plan on keeping it for a long, long time, so I want it to be a very nice car as well as having plenty of power and all the creature comforts.

[GothamCamaro]

Originally Posted by Silverado

Count me in that group, I want almost all the options (I will not pay for XM radio and I don't want any kind of navigation (give me a Garmin any day)) because while this will be my daily (seasonally) driver, it will also be my weekend cruiser. And, I plan on keeping it for a long, long time, so I want it to be a very nice car as well as having plenty of power and all the creature comforts.

Ditto except I do want XM cuz I do pay for my commercial free radio already with Sirius Radio. I have my Garmin already but if they have a nice Navigation system, I might consider it (I don't mean OnStar service).

[sterlingnotes]

I think they should offer base models without all the extras, but I agree with Silverado. I'm going to be driving my Camaro every day. I want a fast awesome sounding V8, but I also want all of the creature comforts. Load it up for me!

[radz28]

No stripper here, although I don't need every creature comfort there is. Give me some power, good sounds, nice interior, and I'll be good to go

[LS9CamaroSS]

Originally Posted by sterlingnotes

I think they should offer base models without all the extras, but I agree with Silverado. I'm going to be driving my Camaro every day. I want a fast awesome sounding V8, but I also want all of the creature comforts. Load it up for me!

I say if they can offer the base models with most of the options at a decent price go ahead and do it! that is most likely the direction I'll be going.

[Camaro_Corvette]

[QUOTE=Silverado;58247]Yeah, sorry, but this isn't going to be mostly a track car for the vast majority of the people. This will be anywhere from a daily driver to a weekend cruiser for 95-98% of the people that buy one. The trim levels and options should be geared towards that. The people that want to turn one of the best street cars in a long time into a track only car can do it by deleting all the stuff they don't want, putting in their own roll cages and racing harnesses, etc.

agreed

[briannutter]

Remember, it's just an option that the individual checks off when they order the car...you guys can get it loaded anyway you want. Just tell GM to invest a little time to come up with a optional package for guys like myself. I'll be running rings around the other cars at the track and that will reflect well on the street cars.

[The_Blur]

I agree with the general opinion here. While a quality track car is a respectable hobby, I'm still going to need to get to work. There's just no way many people will buy a stripped down model when they can do it themselves. Actually, I have a lot of respect for people who will take a higher model and take out what they don't need. I never trust the factory to make the most out of performance. They won't bore and stroke for you. If anyone really wants a balls-to-the-wall track model, they should really take pride in building it themselves and not relying on their favorite car company to do the work for them. Besides, building your own pet monster is far more satisfying than having Chevrolet build it for you.

I know what you're saying about performance on the track boding well for those on the street, but it's just not cost-effective to offer the option. GM needs to compete really aggressively over the largest market segments. The small ones, like us, are fairly lucky to get the attention we get at all. There are a lot of enthusiasts out there, but they need to focus on making cars that they can sell to anyone.

[CaptianSam]

there is no point to onstar... the only GOOD benefits are restaurant reservations... hotel reservations... and in car calling which you can do with bluetooth... and the navigation system is not that good they have gotten me lost before... a in dash navi is much better

[briannutter]

Seems like I'm outvoted. Am I even on the right website? Take me back to 1967 so I can buy a first year DZ302 Z28. Or, I can get into a used Z06 for my $38K. Which isn't going to help GM much

I see everything people are throwing on the wishlist. Each one of those things adds weight and cost. At the same time people are complaining about the weight and cost. Remember when Homer got to design his own car? Go buy a G8 gtp if you've need a big backseat. Don't ruin it for the youngsters.

The problem with car marketing is things grow bigger with every successive iteration in an effort to grow sales by going mainstream. That works for a while, but then the bottom drops out and people make fun of the bloated turd it has become. It's called diluting a brand. It takes a strong leader to deny mainstream sales and stay true to the original formula. The money guys and the marketing "experts" look at them like they have a 3rd eyeball when they say "hey, lets make it smaller next year with less ameneties". Bob Lutz (and a lot of guys behind the scenes) are heros in my book for staying car guys.

[GothamCamaro]

Originally Posted by briannutter

Am I even on the right website?

This isn't the American Idol board? Darn it, clicked on the wrong link!

[Dragoneye]

Originally Posted by briannutter

Seems like I'm outvoted. Am I even on the right website?

Oh, you are. But it seems you are in the wrong mindset. There is a VERY small percentage of people who want an all-out stripper/racer model (even amongst us enthusiasts). That means it won't sell, making all the expense used to pull out all the comforts of a normal car a waste. Yes, it would be MORE expensive not to have all these things in.

PLUS, that won't look good to anybody looking at this car outside of this site. The lack of options, despite the increased performance will look like moldy bread to most people. Not a very good impression if you ask me.

Finally, Unless you're looking for a 3,000 lbs anorexic Camaro.....I don't believe for one second that it's going to resemble anything close to a bloated Turd. The Challenger fills that role very nicely, thank you.

[Silverado]

After re-reading my own post, I guess I didn't finish my thought (surprise, I'm at work and got distracted by...well, work).

Anyway, as it's been mentioned, you can't get the stripped model to be cost effective. And, since GM wants to sell an awful lot of the Camaros, they need to appeal to the broadest market and be cost effective.

You mention wanting to go back to '67 and getting that package...you have to remember, the automakers had to build certain versions/options packages/etc to be able to compete in certain racing "leagues" back then. That isn't true today (thank goodness...if it was, our beloved Camaro would come out looking like a ToyotaFordDodge CamryTaurusCharger...and that would suck).

I understand where you're coming from and I get your point. But, I think the bigger point is that GM needs the Camaro to appeal to the broadest market possible in order to hit the proposed sales numbers (and we want them to hit those numbers or the car will die off again). It's not a right/wrong thing at all, you just happen to be in the smallest possible demographic group. GM, (any good business really) isn't going cater to the smallest group because they can't justify the significant cost increase it would take to give them everything they want.

You also talk about all those options adding weight...again, not everyone, in fact, not the vast majority of Camaro buyers, is so concerned with every little pound or ounce added to the car. Sure, we'd all love to have a super-lightweight car with 500+ HP that rides/drives like a dream all week and hot laps like a champ all weekend....oh, wait, and almost all of us want power windows/locks, a nice stereo, comfortable seats, etc. Sorry, you can't have both. You can have one or the other, or you can compromise, but you can't have both, at least not at a price competitive with a Mustang...competitive with a Ferrari maybe, but......

And, I resent the fact that you imply I'm old when you say "Go buy a G8 gtp if you've need a big backseat. Don't ruin it for the youngsters."...I'm only 34 man, don't push me over the hill yet ...just because I have kids doesn't mean I'm old. I'm not trying to ruin anything for anyone....I just happen to like to take my wife and kids out for a drive in the baddest muscle car on the street.

So, get your Camaro, strip it down the way you want it, and race it all day long....I'll still cheer for you to beat everything out there on the track...but I'll do it from my leather seats and listening to my great sound system.

[Dan]

Stripper model has already been ruled out.

[GothamCamaro]

Originally Posted by Dan

Stripper model has already been ruled out.

I thought I read that somewhere but didn't want to jump the gun with that info. Thanks Dan!

[LS9CamaroSS]

Originally Posted by Silverado

After re-reading my own post, I guess I didn't finish my thought (surprise, I'm at work and got distracted by...well, work).

Anyway, as it's been mentioned, you can't get the stripped model to be cost effective. And, since GM wants to sell an awful lot of the Camaros, they need to appeal to the broadest market and be cost effective.

You mention wanting to go back to '67 and getting that package...you have to remember, the automakers had to build certain versions/options packages/etc to be able to compete in certain racing "leagues" back then. That isn't true today (thank goodness...if it was, our beloved Camaro would come out looking like a ToyotaFordDodge CamryTaurusCharger...and that would suck).

I understand where you're coming from and I get your point. But, I think the bigger point is that GM needs the Camaro to appeal to the broadest market possible in order to hit the proposed sales numbers (and we want them to hit those numbers or the car will die off again). It's not a right/wrong thing at all, you just happen to be in the smallest possible demographic group. GM, (any good business really) isn't going cater to the smallest group because they can't justify the significant cost increase it would take to give them everything they want.

You also talk about all those options adding weight...again, not everyone, in fact, not the vast majority of Camaro buyers, is so concerned with every little pound or ounce added to the car. Sure, we'd all love to have a super-lightweight car with 500+ HP that rides/drives like a dream all week and hot laps like a champ all weekend....oh, wait, and almost all of us want power windows/locks, a nice stereo, comfortable seats, etc. Sorry, you can't have both. You can have one or the other, or you can compromise, but you can't have both, at least not at a price competitive with a Mustang...competitive with a Ferrari maybe, but......

And, I resent the fact that you imply I'm old when you say "Go buy a G8 gtp if you've need a big backseat. Don't ruin it for the youngsters."...I'm only 34 man, don't push me over the hill yet ...just because I have kids doesn't mean I'm old. I'm not trying to ruin anything for anyone....I just happen to like to take my wife and kids out for a drive in the baddest muscle car on the street.

So, get your Camaro, strip it down the way you want it, and race it all day long....I'll still cheer for you to beat everything out there on the track...but I'll do it from my leather seats and listening to my great sound system.

i completely agree with you Silverado. I too want all the above mentioned stuff and a badass car. I am only 19 so not everyone our age is looking for a "stripper" that wants this car in the younger age group. Hell i'm one on here that isn't going to "settle" with a V6, but i absolutely want a V6 in this car. Like everyone else has said you gotta think about the broad spectrum of buyers not just a small minority.

[garfin]

Originally Posted by briannutter

I noticed most people want you to ADD things...which is fine for those guys, but I want to subtract them to keep the price and weight down. I know there are rumors of factory race cars etc..but I need something that can be licenced on the street....barely.

There are a lot of things that are already locked into the design, so I'll try to state things that could be optional at this stage of the game. I'll be autocrossing, roadracing, and drag racing. I want the biggest engine, the widest tires..or even large inner wheelwells to accomodate aftermarkets and slicks, the 6 speed, optional deep gearing WITH the ability to order a stripper interior.

I NEED you to make a 1LE stripper version with radio delete, ac delete, airbag delete, powerwindow/seat delete/ and anything else you think you can toss...this version needs to come with a huge oil cooler. A Strong limited slip is a must. Please have John Heinricy and the team come up with a fully developed t1 track only spring, bar, and damper package. It would also be nice for you guys to design a really well fitting 4 point roll bar with harness mounts that can be ordered from the dealer. Make it all so I finance it into the car. A track only splitter would be nice along with a pattern for a clear lexan rear spoiler that is windtunnel designed for 130mph speeds....doesn't have to clear curbs.

I know you have insurance concerns, but give us a few back doors to remove the speed limiters and override the torque control when necessary. If you have to downrate the horsepower for insurance reasons..fine...just close the throttle 50% and give the tuners an easy hack. A revised traction control algorithm for the 1le version that allows me to drift and powerslide. Think about the tools and information that Mazda has given to their minions that make it easier for them to get to the track.

I had my Black '67 RS camaro stolen from my workplace 6 years ago. Complete cowl inducted roadrace/dragrace afr headed smallblock car with a doug nash 5 speed and Cal-tracked 12 bolt. it's as close as I've ever come to being heartbroken and this is the replacement for it. When things calm down a bit in a couple years..give us a RS version with a blacked out grill...not mechanical hide-aways...but maybe something that shines through a dark polycarbonate lens.

Thanks and feel free to email me at bnutter@wiseco.com if I can be of more assistance. -Brian Nutter-Wiseco Piston

Heh heh... I can actually remember the days when the term "option delete" didn't strike fear into the hearts of manufacturers!!

Yes, there are definitely a few crazies out there who are perhaps a bit over the top, given today's economic realities, with their track-oriented priorities for this car - and I suppose you could include me in that group. I track my 98 SS as often as I can (I'm blessed to live less than an hour away from Mosport!), have been known to autoX every once in awhile and have a drawer full of timeslips from the strip.

Unfortunately, the "good old days" are behind us and we hardcore enthusiasts have to learn to adapt to our changing world. As others have pointed out, the concept of producing a "stripper" car for the very small number of customers who would actually buy that highly specialized vehicle really stretches the limits of fiscal responsibility today (for the manufacturer). It just doesn't make sense.

So how are we track-crazy enthusiasts supposed to get our 140 mph adrenalin fix in an air-conditioned car with power everything and leather seats? I suppose it's all in the way one views the situation... I, like many others here, want some creature comforts in a car that I drive on a daily basis, 3 seasons out of the year but at the same time, make sure that it is completely at home on a road course. My '98 SS fills that bill perfectly for me. The car has a bit more power than stock and a couple of basic bolt-on handling goodies have been added into the mix. The car's ability to brake has also been noticeably improved. Looking at the car, nobody would think it was anything other than completely stock. The car is as easy, if not easier to drive to the corner store for a jug of milk than it was when I drove it off the dealer's lot almost 10 years ago.

No, it's not the fastest it could be... but then again, I'm not the fastest driver out there either. I'm not looking to set new lap records at Mosport. I do want the opportunity to learn how to drive this car at (or as close to) its limits as I'm able to 4 or 5 times a season so that I can become a better driver and get the most fun and enjoyment out of my car.

The really good thing about this approach for me, is that I've ended up with a totally reliable car that I love to drive every chance I get, since it's not "too" extreme so that my level of comfort is compromised. BTW, I was at a tech session for Corvette owners at the largest Canadian Corvette dealer on Saturday and Ron Fellows was there. (He's a local Toronto boy). He mentioned that there is now air conditioning in the latest competition C6Rs!!


I guess if I was even more addicted to this hobby than I already am, I would no doubt have a dedicated track car - with all the trappings that go with it. Bottom line is that it would cost me a [B]whole[B] lot less to build a dedicated track car than it's gonna cost me for a new Camaro... and the other thing is that I'm a whole lot more comfortable taking a 10 year-old Camaro out onto a road course than a brand new 5th Gen (with some "big honkin' V8" of undisclosed specifications ) Sure - I'll get the "Top Dawg" and run it on the track at the beginning a couple of times to see what it's capable of, but I've also tried to console the owner of a brand new Honda S2000 after witnessing him total it at Mosport less than a month after signing on for 5 years of payments... at least he walked away unscathed! Maybe after a little while, I'll be more inclined to run it more frequently and at closer to full blast, but you gotta know that my '98 ain't goin' nowhere for the time being!

The really good news is that at least 3 of the 15 "disciples" are total track junkies (me included), and although I am not permitted to discuss any specifics, I think it's safe to say that none of us held back when voicing our priorities to the Camaro team. Perhaps it was more than coincidence that the 3 of us were picked to participate in this exercise - I don't know, but I do recall Scott making a post just very recently suggesting that this car was going to be the best road course car in its class!

Best regardSS,

Elie

[briannutter]

Wow. I thought I wasn't so out there, but I guess I am. I'll continue hoping for a miracle, a little box I can check off at the dealership that puts it closer to track ready, but it looks like I'll be "tastefully" gutting the car at the shop without telling my wife.

If you see a series of posts from my wife like: Why doesn't the AC blow cold?/ My husband parked our car in a bad area and the radio got stolen/How could our car fail emissions when it's brand new?/My husband said the variable cam phasing mechanism is on the fritz and the car now idles like a Pro-stocker/etc.etc.etc.....please keep your your mouths shut

See ya at the track

[alnoe]

Hey Brian

See what trouble you stirred up

I am on the same page with you. I would LOVE to see a 1LE, 6 speed car with minimal options-I still want it to be a "street car" but if it lost power windows, AC, etc. I would live with it to get a wicked track car.

Ford does it with the Mustang-look at the "track ready cars" they sell that are turn key T2 cars complete with cage installed etc. I am sure that we both drooled over them at SEMA-even if it is a Ford, it was awesome for a MFG to build them-it made me respect Ford a LOT more.

I think Chevy really needs to do this. They will NOT sell a lot of volume, as admitted by people on this board. Does "If it wins on Sunday, it sells on Monday still hold true" or does the typical Camaro buyer not care?

Brian-we need to go have a beer and discuss how we should slam together the "1LE that GM should have built", complete with a 440 LSX engine, driven by our psycho Cincinnati friend. It would be fun to go out and kick some Ford ass in it. One Lap??

Al

[Silverado]

Brian....I just want to clarify something...I wasn't in any way slamming on you or your opinion. I totally respect your idea of how you want your car. The best thing is that this car will in all likelyhood, be capable of being both a legit track car and an incredible daily driver right off the showfloor.

You are not "out there" at all, your idea just doesn't really line up with what GM/Chevy are trying to do with this car. As I said, I'll root for you and your track ready 5th Gen every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

It doesn't matter whether you take it to the office, on a Sunday cruise, or hot lapping at the track, it's a Camaro, and as I've said before, that puts us all in some great company.


Oh, and if your wife asks, we'll do our best to cover for you

[briannutter]

AlNoe:

To All whom are not familiar with the demigods of the aftermarket....one has just spoken. He'll be on this website long after the most of us have moved on to Buickdillacs.

Mr. Al, a beer is good...two are better...five and we'll manage to be the first pair arrested in a new Camaro...which may be a Guinness (tm) record of some kind worthy of Jalopnik....I'm thinking something Joey Chitwoodian. If you wanna build something, lets tap into some of our mutual resources. We could bring on the Cincinnati kid, but I think you and I will do just fine on our own. I just sent an email to one of our unmentionable friends who is friends with someone whom is also unmentionable. We'll see what becomes of it.

[alnoe]

Hey now!

Remember, I used to daily beat a supercharged 3.8 Bu-ICK. Nice car to go out and pick on the biggest wing I could find at dragway 42 on Import night. Nothing like a 4 door pig going 14.30-14.50's blazing the one all season radial for about 40-60 feet. It was a FINE beater, and a GREAT bracket car

Brian-you are way too kind. BTW-the Wiseco slugs in my 388 look GREAT after 20K really hard miles. We should have the fresh 388 on the dyno in the next couple weeks, same pistons-no reason to change them. With the new CNC head and real aggressive lobe style cam, I am hoping for 550.

I also will call you-I bought a 4" SBC forged crank. I want at least a 427 SB, making 650 flywheel. Next winter project!

Beer. MMMM. I will call you this week.

Al

[TAG UR IT]

Brian, I hope you do get what you want....as stripped down as it'll come. If they offer that 1LE (which I've been told they won't), I hope you pick one up and do lap all the others at the track giving that Camaro a b@d@ss name!