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Old 05-27-2014, 07:49 AM   #1
Dropspeed
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Do we need CTS-V Big Brakes?

As of this weekend I have driven 3 different tracks since the install of my CTS-V front brake set-up (2 piece rotors/ 6 piston calipers / using Motul 600 and stock GM pads) and I will just post a quick review for each and then conclude with my opinion and some made up point system..fair enough? (Disclaimer: weather, temps, tire condition, and the weight of the driver post steak dinner the night before can all have an effect on lap times.....This is racer math listed below)

Gingerman Raceway: April 12/13 2014. Gingerman is a 2 mile road course that has 4 heavy brake zones. It is know to eat brakes and tires. I was able to repetitively brake later and dropped my laps from the pre brake install 1:47.34 to a CTS-V braked lap time of 1:44.41 (that is huge) CTS-V Brakes +1 point

Waterford Hills Raceway: May 24th. Waterford is a very short 1.5 mile twisty track that is more suited to smaller lighter cars and there is only one hard brake zone from 100mph. My best lap last year was a 1:20 flat...Best lap Saturday was a 1:21.7. So what happened? The stock brakes worked just fine at Waterford. I made no other changes and it was 25+F warmer than I ran there last year.Tires were getting a little worn CTS-V Brakes = 0 points

Grattan Raceway:
May 25th: I love Grattan!! 3200+ foot straight, off camber side of a hill corner, a jump!! My best lap last year pre-BBK was 1:30.22, Sunday it was 1:31.78 But wait, there is more! My max speed on the straight between the two times increased from 123.6 mph in Sept to 130.4 mph on Sunday. A 7 mph increase without a pucker in the brake zone lap after lap. (Then why are you slower Matt?) One word: tires. I wore the front tires down well past were I would normally use them and they just fell off. The car didn't want to turn in and I had to drive it to turn with more throttle which is not smooth or fast. CTS-V Brakes = 1 point.

So do you need CTS-V 6-Piston Brakes?
Of course you don't need them as you can make the stock 4-piston Brembos works just fine with good pads, fluid and some air flow. If you only run a shorter track there may be no need for you to upgrade.....But with my racer math/data above (as well as support from a friend that may or may not work at GM that may or may not work with the high performance brake systems and may or may not have shared data with me to assist in my choices) I would say it is was worth the investment for me.

Thank you again to Joe and Becky D at Rodgers Chevrolet for the use of the tow rig! They met me on day two at Grattan and Becky had a new PB there! 2 Tracks and over 400+ miles behind the wheel of the Kodiak and I was a tired dog!

Thank you,
Matt
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Old 05-27-2014, 08:40 AM   #2
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Nice, I have wondered this same thing for my car. I intend on running two piece rotors and setting up a brake cooling system for mine. I am running HP+ pads right now and really like the way the car feels. I haven't had it on a road course yet but that will come soon.
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Old 05-27-2014, 09:43 AM   #3
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I fear I need them or real track pads with the SS brakes. For me the CTS-V is almost the same cost as track pads. $1,050 - $500 I can get for selling the stock front brakes is $550, last time I priced Cobalt Friction pads they we $550 front and back. For me this is a no brainer as I track a 2-3 times a year. With brake ducts and 2-piece ZL1 rotors cooling should be enough to use the stock pads.

It sounds like Gingerman is similar to Sebring so it is good to here your setup works well there! Thanks for the breakdown.
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Old 05-27-2014, 10:38 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toehead93 View Post
I fear I need them or real track pads with the SS brakes. For me the CTS-V is almost the same cost as track pads. $1,050 - $500 I can get for selling the stock front brakes is $550, last time I priced Cobalt Friction pads they we $550 front and back. For me this is a no brainer as I track a 2-3 times a year. With brake ducts and 2-piece ZL1 rotors cooling should be enough to use the stock pads.

It sounds like Gingerman is similar to Sebring so it is good to here your setup works well there! Thanks for the breakdown.
Cobalt Friction pads in the stock SS four pots work great. The same XR1 / XR3 pads in the CTS-V / ZL1 six pot front with four pot rears work better. We attributed a 1 second gain at Gingerman to the six pot upgrade.
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Old 06-01-2014, 07:49 AM   #5
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Very sorry to say this but the StopTech kits like what Nathan Merino has on his project car is the proper brake upgrade. I realize that larger rotors carry more weight in front than what I desire. DBA 5000 current updated rotors at 21 lbs each similar weight to the StopTech rotors. I noticed that with lighter front rotors the front end turns in better and easier at speeds, the car becomes more neutral with less rotational mass in front. I would try Brembo 6 pot calipers and DBA 5000 front rotors but those calipers are twice as expensive at $2000 calipers alone. I still believe in the more rotor material more room for heat in which larger diameter rotors win but on tracks where we won't see higher speeds the 14" rotors should still work.
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Old 06-02-2014, 07:14 AM   #6
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You have provided some good points. My thoughts/responses below.

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Originally Posted by L99CAMA2011 View Post
Very sorry to say this but the StopTech kits like what Nathan Merino has on his project car is the proper brake upgrade.
Nathan has either an unlimited budget and/or connections. A quick Google search indicates the Stoptechs are $2461.00 for the front kit. It is more than double the CTS-V 6-piston kit with 2-piece rotors.

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Originally Posted by L99CAMA2011 View Post
I realize that larger rotors carry more weight in front than what I desire.
Yes, weight is the enemy! Both the stock Camaro SS rotors and the 09-12 CTS-V dual cast rotors weigh in the 25lb range. The 2-piece 2013+ V/ ZL-1 rotors are 27.x lbs (+ 2 lbs per side)

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Originally Posted by L99CAMA2011 View Post
DBA 5000 current updated rotors at 21 lbs each similar weight to the StopTech rotors.
I used DBA rotors on my EVO when I raced. They are very nice, but at (A Google price of ) $451 per and $902 for a set they may also be cost prohibitive to some people for just rotors.

I was able to sell my stock red 1LE calipers front and rear (rotors, pads, lines) for $900 and for $500 more ($1400 total) I have the 6 piston front brake set/up, 2 piece rotors, braided lines, new fluid and matching rear calipers (my labor).....For me it was the way to go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by L99CAMA2011 View Post
I noticed that with lighter front rotors the front end turns in better and easier at speeds, the car becomes more neutral with less rotational mass in front.
Agreed that lighter is better. But rotational mass is greater if the mass is farther from the axis of rotation (hub). I will spend the money on a smaller and lighter wheel tire combo as this will have a greater effect than the rotor. If anyone can do both, even better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by L99CAMA2011 View Post
I would try Brembo 6 pot calipers and DBA 5000 front rotors but those calipers are twice as expensive at $2000 calipers alone.
The CTS-V Brembo 6-pots can be purchased for $250 each on amazon. Here is the thread I created with all of the info:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=348133

Quote:
Originally Posted by L99CAMA2011 View Post
I still believe in the more rotor material more room for heat in which larger diameter rotors win but on tracks where we won't see higher speeds the 14" rotors should still work.
The first thing any stock brake system needs (after DOT 4 fluid) is a set of brake ducts to direct cool air to the rotors. If we can add more material (without additional weight) even better. The 14" SS brake package works very well stock (with proper fluid) and even better with some air flow, proper pads and lighter rotors.

I have an acquaintance that is in the high performance brake division at GM. Based on information that was shared with me I made a cost effective choice with the best bang for the buck performance.......but it might not fit everyone's needs

-Matt
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Old 06-02-2014, 07:20 AM   #7
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Old 06-02-2014, 11:28 PM   #8
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Matt, Very nice write up. You should share this in the RC/AX section.

Shame on you though for not paying attention to your tires. I am mentally slapping your hands. lol. You gonna upgrade or stay with the GY's?

T.
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