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Old 06-20-2014, 11:57 AM   #26
realcanuk
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Itsmeagain View Post
Well what would make really big power but is legal in California? The whipple?
Define "really big".
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Old 06-20-2014, 03:24 PM   #27
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California has a little more regulations than most other states but if a car is tuned properly by a good tuner just about any forced induction system can pass emissions tests.

All of the TVS 2.3 roots blowers use the exact same rotors produced by Eaton. This includes the E-force, the LS9 on the ZR1 Corvette, Magnacharger, Heartbeat and many other superchargers built for other brands of cars. The difference between these blowers is all related to the airflow design and the cooling capacity of the intercooler(s) built into the supercharger. Better airflow always equals more power, this is why we do porting on heads, put in bigger cams and throtle bodies, to get better airflow. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to look at the internal design of a blower and see some have rounded flowing chambers and lids and some have square and boxy chambers and lids. This all effects airflow.

As you drive the blower faster it makes more heat. The ability of the blower to transfer the heat to the cooling system and still pass a large volume of air through the coolers always determine the upper limit of the performance capability of a blower. If you don't plan on running the blower at its limits these issues don't matter a bit. Any one of the blowers mentioned above can give you 550whp without breaking a sweat. But if you start trying to make 800whp with a 2.3 blower it is going to get down right impossible with some of these blowers because you cannot get the amount of air the engine needs crammed through the intercoolers at a reasonable temperature.

The Heartbeat is the newest kid on the block and Magnuson did a lot of research into the issues I have described in the above paragraphs and they made a better blower. I have already seen the maximum amount of boost some folks are running through this blower and it is above what the others will run. Try to run 17 pounds of boost through an E-force and tell me how that works for you, people are doing it without any trouble the Heartbeat. I'm swapping a heartbeat onto my car right now and within a couple of weeks I should be able to put up some numbers on the difference in maximum power between a Heartbeat and a LS9 blower at least.

I have had 5 different superchargers on different cars I have owned and just going by evaluation of the design features, I would recommend the Heartbeat.
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Old 06-20-2014, 04:48 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jessrayo View Post
California has a little more regulations than most other states but if a car is tuned properly by a good tuner just about any forced induction system can pass emissions tests.

All of the TVS 2.3 roots blowers use the exact same rotors produced by Eaton. This includes the E-force, the LS9 on the ZR1 Corvette, Magnacharger, Heartbeat and many other superchargers built for other brands of cars. The difference between these blowers is all related to the airflow design and the cooling capacity of the intercooler(s) built into the supercharger. Better airflow always equals more power, this is why we do porting on heads, put in bigger cams and throtle bodies, to get better airflow. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to look at the internal design of a blower and see some have rounded flowing chambers and lids and some have square and boxy chambers and lids. This all effects airflow.

As you drive the blower faster it makes more heat. The ability of the blower to transfer the heat to the cooling system and still pass a large volume of air through the coolers always determine the upper limit of the performance capability of a blower. If you don't plan on running the blower at its limits these issues don't matter a bit. Any one of the blowers mentioned above can give you 550whp without breaking a sweat. But if you start trying to make 800whp with a 2.3 blower it is going to get down right impossible with some of these blowers because you cannot get the amount of air the engine needs crammed through the intercoolers at a reasonable temperature.

The Heartbeat is the newest kid on the block and Magnuson did a lot of research into the issues I have described in the above paragraphs and they made a better blower. I have already seen the maximum amount of boost some folks are running through this blower and it is above what the others will run. Try to run 17 pounds of boost through an E-force and tell me how that works for you, people are doing it without any trouble the Heartbeat. I'm swapping a heartbeat onto my car right now and within a couple of weeks I should be able to put up some numbers on the difference in maximum power between a Heartbeat and a LS9 blower at least.

I have had 5 different superchargers on different cars I have owned and just going by evaluation of the design features, I would recommend the Heartbeat.
I cant wait to see the results of your blower swap. Please post them up for us to see. So far the 2 detailed threads I can find on heartbeat installs are both on caddys. Both made unimpressive power on big boost numbers, and both had IATS higher than I see on my eforce.
People may think I am pushing the eforce but I am not. I am hoping that the claim of more power and lower IAT's with the heartbeat is true, in which case I might consider a swap myself. So far what I have seen doesn't support the claims though.
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Old 06-20-2014, 07:42 PM   #29
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Here is a thread on the heartbeat. Seeing how they have not released a kit for the SS yet its difficult to get much info on them.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=346187

I can't wait to see some solid info and testing on this supercharger.
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Old 06-20-2014, 07:48 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by realcanuk View Post
I cant wait to see the results of your blower swap. Please post them up for us to see. So far the 2 detailed threads I can find on heartbeat installs are both on caddys. Both made unimpressive power on big boost numbers, and both had IATS higher than I see on my eforce.
People may think I am pushing the eforce but I am not. I am hoping that the claim of more power and lower IAT's with the heartbeat is true, in which case I might consider a swap myself. So far what I have seen doesn't support the claims though.
Just looking at your signature, you are getting a lot of power out of the eforce, I would not say a 2.75 upper and a 10% lower are pushing any 2.3 blower to the limits. You are spinning your blower around 21,000 rpm if your limiter is @6500. You have a very good longblock to get those kind of numbers.

I will put the numbers up on the Heartbeat when it is done. I suspect I will be able to spin it a little faster before the power drops off and this will translate into more peak horsepower. My LS9 blower made a peak of 835 no matter what combination of pulleys I ran on the car. I could show more boost on the gauge but the boost was coming from hot air rather than more air and to make more power you have got to get more air in the engine. Couple weeks and it should be on the dyno.
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Old 06-20-2014, 11:53 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by jessrayo View Post
Just looking at your signature, you are getting a lot of power out of the eforce, I would not say a 2.75 upper and a 10% lower are pushing any 2.3 blower to the limits. You are spinning your blower around 21,000 rpm if your limiter is @6500. You have a very good longblock to get those kind of numbers.

I will put the numbers up on the Heartbeat when it is done. I suspect I will be able to spin it a little faster before the power drops off and this will translate into more peak horsepower. My LS9 blower made a peak of 835 no matter what combination of pulleys I ran on the car. I could show more boost on the gauge but the boost was coming from hot air rather than more air and to make more power you have got to get more air in the engine. Couple weeks and it should be on the dyno.


Actually according to my calculations the eforce is spinning just under 20000 at 6800 rpm. On the dyno the power stays right at 780 to 6700 which is as far as I pushed it. My 780 is through an auto and a stall so it would be a little higher with a stick.
I am sure the heartbeat will be awesome. I look forward to the results.
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3.42 polished gears, hardened shafts, Alky control meth, Cartech line lock, ECS axle loops, Trans brace
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Old 06-21-2014, 12:01 AM   #32
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What do you mean by that? Stay naturally aspirated? The Edelbrock E Force is not a good choice compared to Magnuson???

In this thread there are about 5 or so people that praise this kit? So I don't really understand why you say that? The numbers between the edelbroxk and the Maggie are very very close ok a stock application.
Meaning I would not put a supercharger on my car if the only choice was E-Force. You'll get way more bang for your buck choosing ANY of the others.

I understand you may have limited choices in CA but if the Whipple or Heartbeat is one of them this really isn't a choice.
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Old 06-21-2014, 08:21 AM   #33
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Actually according to my calculations the eforce is spinning just under 20000 at 6800 rpm. On the dyno the power stays right at 780 to 6700 which is as far as I pushed it. My 780 is through an auto and a stall so it would be a little higher with a stick.
I am sure the heartbeat will be awesome. I look forward to the results.
Do you have a Camaro with an e force?...your 780hp is Canadian hp right?..jk
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Old 06-21-2014, 08:59 AM   #34
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Yes. Purely Canadian HP. As you know it's not a camaro, it's what camaros want to be when they grow up. Same results though.
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E Force SC, ARH 1 7/8 headers, NPP with M2W
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3.42 polished gears, hardened shafts, Alky control meth, Cartech line lock, ECS axle loops, Trans brace
ID 850 injectors, 2.75 pulley, comp rockers, Morel lifters, BT springs, Trend 3/8 pushrods, ATI 10% OD Damper
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Old 06-21-2014, 03:31 PM   #35
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Yes. Purely Canadian HP. As you know it's not a camaro, it's what camaros want to be when they grow up. Same results though.
Thanks for putting the dyno sheet up, that actually helps me quite a bit. Impressive sheet on a auto trans.

Okay first on the blower speed. There are different ways to calculate this stuff but for me the easiest way to find this is to divide the diameter of the bottom pulley by the the diameter of the upper pulley. This gives you the pulley ratio of upper revolutions to one lower revolution. If you started with a long equation calculating the exact circumference of the pulleys you could cancel all of the constants and you end up with the same thing. Okay so on your car you have an 8.66 lower and a 2.75 upper giving a pulley ratio of 3.149. So every rotation of the bottom pulley gives 3.149 rotations of the upper. Since the bottom is on the crankshaft it is easy to figure max rpm this way. 6800 rpms on the crankshaft times 3.149 = 21,413 rpm on the blower at peak rpm. Lingenfelter says 23,000 is the limit on these blowers. I have seen people that build a blower car for drag racing go a bit higher. A close look at the dyno sheet can sometimes give you a good idea if there would be any benefit in spinning the blower faster. Just because lingenfelter says 23,000 is the max doesn't mean your car will operate best at that speed.

I can tell you from trying many combinations on my car that all top mount superchargers will hit a point where the efficiency starts to drop off rapidly. To make more power you have to get more air in the engine. All forced induction engines compress air. The problem with all compressed air is that you get a rise in temp. The basic physics of air, which is a gas, is that if you put twice as many molecules in a space without any other changes you will double the pressure. Also if you leave the exact same number of molecules in the space but double the temp, you double the pressure. So in basic terms, heating air will raise the boost just as much as increasing number of air molecules but will give no gain in power. That is why the heat is the enemy of all forced induction systems. This transition where the boost is coming from heat instead of more air is not instant and you will usually get the most power where the blower is out of its optimum efficiency and it is generating some serious heat. Good cooling lets you drive a little further out of the blower comfort zone.

Okay so looking at your dyno, the first thing I look at is the slope of the power curve (blue line) on the dyno, particularly at the very top of the rpms. Your slope is just about perfectly flat at 6600 it is not really dropping but it clearly isn't climbing like crazy. If it still has some upslope, you can give it more pulley, if you have a lot of downslope at redline you would have less heat and close to the same power if you reduced the pulley ratio. It depends on your heat tolerance. If you only race with ice and do 1/4 miles then it may be okay, if you try to road race the car the heat at high rpms will cause major problems.

Also on your dyno, looking at AFR, air fuel ratios, the yellow line on the graph, it is rock steady at 11.5 right up to 5750rpm. Then the AFR start to rise. Assuming the tables are linear this means at 5750 the car is starting to get more fuel than air..... The fuel rise is linear so the air is not keeping up... This is because the blower is losing efficiency and more of the "boost" is starting to come from heat rather than increased number of cool air molecules.

Same with the boost graph (red line), boost is rock steady at 12psi to 5250rpm and then it starts to waver and climbs all the way to about 14.6 at the redline. Since the pulley ratio is constant all the way across the rpm band this increase at the top is all related to heat.

So based on everything on your dyno sheet it looks to me like you have your car dialed in very well for peak power on your current build. I don't think giving your car any more pulley ratio would help any more, I suspect if you push your car for more than a 1/4 mile now you are going to have a lot of blower heat. Unless you have a very good cooling system you would probably start to lose a lot of timing to high IATs if you were road racing at these pulley ratios. I do the standing mile, 1/4 mile and road racing and road racing is where the blower temps really start to be a problem.
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Old 06-21-2014, 04:56 PM   #36
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Thanks for putting the dyno sheet up, that actually helps me quite a bit. Impressive sheet on a auto trans.

Okay first on the blower speed. There are different ways to calculate this stuff but for me the easiest way to find this is to divide the diameter of the bottom pulley by the the diameter of the upper pulley. This gives you the pulley ratio of upper revolutions to one lower revolution. If you started with a long equation calculating the exact circumference of the pulleys you could cancel all of the constants and you end up with the same thing. Okay so on your car you have an 8.66 lower and a 2.75 upper giving a pulley ratio of 3.149. So every rotation of the bottom pulley gives 3.149 rotations of the upper. Since the bottom is on the crankshaft it is easy to figure max rpm this way. 6800 rpms on the crankshaft times 3.149 = 21,413 rpm on the blower at peak rpm. Lingenfelter says 23,000 is the limit on these blowers. I have seen people that build a blower car for drag racing go a bit higher. A close look at the dyno sheet can sometimes give you a good idea if there would be any benefit in spinning the blower faster. Just because lingenfelter says 23,000 is the max doesn't mean your car will operate best at that speed.

I can tell you from trying many combinations on my car that all top mount superchargers will hit a point where the efficiency starts to drop off rapidly. To make more power you have to get more air in the engine. All forced induction engines compress air. The problem with all compressed air is that you get a rise in temp. The basic physics of air, which is a gas, is that if you put twice as many molecules in a space without any other changes you will double the pressure. Also if you leave the exact same number of molecules in the space but double the temp, you double the pressure. So in basic terms, heating air will raise the boost just as much as increasing number of air molecules but will give no gain in power. That is why the heat is the enemy of all forced induction systems. This transition where the boost is coming from heat instead of more air is not instant and you will usually get the most power where the blower is out of its optimum efficiency and it is generating some serious heat. Good cooling lets you drive a little further out of the blower comfort zone.

Okay so looking at your dyno, the first thing I look at is the slope of the power curve (blue line) on the dyno, particularly at the very top of the rpms. Your slope is just about perfectly flat at 6600 it is not really dropping but it clearly isn't climbing like crazy. If it still has some upslope, you can give it more pulley, if you have a lot of downslope at redline you would have less heat and close to the same power if you reduced the pulley ratio. It depends on your heat tolerance. If you only race with ice and do 1/4 miles then it may be okay, if you try to road race the car the heat at high rpms will cause major problems.

Also on your dyno, looking at AFR, air fuel ratios, the yellow line on the graph, it is rock steady at 11.5 right up to 5750rpm. Then the AFR start to rise. Assuming the tables are linear this means at 5750 the car is starting to get more fuel than air..... The fuel rise is linear so the air is not keeping up... This is because the blower is losing efficiency and more of the "boost" is starting to come from heat rather than increased number of cool air molecules.

Same with the boost graph (red line), boost is rock steady at 12psi to 5250rpm and then it starts to waver and climbs all the way to about 14.6 at the redline. Since the pulley ratio is constant all the way across the rpm band this increase at the top is all related to heat.

So based on everything on your dyno sheet it looks to me like you have your car dialed in very well for peak power on your current build. I don't think giving your car any more pulley ratio would help any more, I suspect if you push your car for more than a 1/4 mile now you are going to have a lot of blower heat. Unless you have a very good cooling system you would probably start to lose a lot of timing to high IATs if you were road racing at these pulley ratios. I do the standing mile, 1/4 mile and road racing and road racing is where the blower temps really start to be a problem.
All good information and I agree with most. I don't do any road racing or standing mile. This is mostly a street car and once in a while I got to the track and run 1/4 miles.
The blower speed according to my calculations... damper 7.96 / blower pulley 2.75 x 6800 rpm comes to 19686. I spoke with the eforce engineer at SEMA last year and he says 20k is the max safe rpm.
The increase in boost at high rpm is apparently caused by the runner design which are more efficient at lower rpms. Truth is that even with the most aggressive street driving, there is no real reason to run this thing over 6500. I stretch 4th out to near 7k at the track, just to avoid another shift.
After that dyno run that I posted, I added a little fuel up top for safety even though she makes the best power and seems to like high 11s AFR.
As far as heat goes, there is no question that the faster you spin the blower, the more heat it produces. On that posted dyno run, which was the 4th or 5th in a short time the IAT's got to 126 which is great. I have not run the 1/4 with this setup yet but I expect to see IAT's somewhere around 150 which is ok.
All in all the setup is working great, but in my opinion the eforce is maxed out. If I decide to look for any more power than I have I will go a different route later.
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E Force SC, ARH 1 7/8 headers, NPP with M2W
160 degree stat, Dual fans, Casper fan switch,
3.42 polished gears, hardened shafts, Alky control meth, Cartech line lock, ECS axle loops, Trans brace
ID 850 injectors, 2.75 pulley, comp rockers, Morel lifters, BT springs, Trend 3/8 pushrods, ATI 10% OD Damper
Circle D Triple Disc 2600 stall
780 RWHP @ 6250, 770 Lbs Torque @ 4300, Tuned by FEDERAL
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Old 06-21-2014, 05:29 PM   #37
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[QUOTE=realcanuk;7762143]Yes. Purely Canadian HP. As you know it's not a camaro, it's what camaros want to be when they grow .....I might be wrong but I don't believe a vette. Has the same transmission or rear as the camaro....
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Old 06-21-2014, 06:39 PM   #38
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[QUOTE=H-E;7762909]
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Originally Posted by realcanuk View Post
Yes. Purely Canadian HP. As you know it's not a camaro, it's what camaros want to be when they grow .....I might be wrong but I don't believe a vette. Has the same transmission or rear as the camaro....

Basically same 6L80 it auto. Not that different if talking about blowers.
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2007 C6 vert, auto, F55, LT3
LME LS402 , WCCH 245 Heads, Pat G. Custom cam
E Force SC, ARH 1 7/8 headers, NPP with M2W
160 degree stat, Dual fans, Casper fan switch,
3.42 polished gears, hardened shafts, Alky control meth, Cartech line lock, ECS axle loops, Trans brace
ID 850 injectors, 2.75 pulley, comp rockers, Morel lifters, BT springs, Trend 3/8 pushrods, ATI 10% OD Damper
Circle D Triple Disc 2600 stall
780 RWHP @ 6250, 770 Lbs Torque @ 4300, Tuned by FEDERAL
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Old 06-21-2014, 11:05 PM   #39
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Well I went with an Edelbrock because I got a smoking deal and great customer service on it. Now I just need to find a shop to install it that's not outrageously priced. Now with the canned tune I know I will have to remove my headers and I hate that I can't use my Vararam Intake with the SC, I love that intake. But I can run the V-vmax TB with the canned tune for a few weeks I know that won't hurt anything, but I plan to upgrade the fuel pump and then put the headers back on and then tune.

Later on down the road if I want more power what do I do? Upgrade the pulley and injectors? And if so to what sizes?
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Old 06-25-2014, 12:35 PM   #40
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Hey MLEE how do you get way more bang for your buck? Id love to know what you mean.
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