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Old 07-06-2011, 09:15 PM   #1
Nessal


 
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Broken valve spring = no engine damage...possible?

So the dealer told me that the valve spring in my LS3 broke on cylinder #8. He said that it was easy and quick to fix because the inner valve spring held the valve so that it wouldn't drop into the chamber. He said that there was no damage at all besides having to replace the valve spring.

I didn't know LS3 came with dual valve springs....or was he pulling me leg? What I'm most afraid of is that there was indeed damage but they just did a quick job on it and replaced the springs without replacing the piston or head. Also I'm afraid that the chamber was damaged to the point where it wouldn't hold pressure well.

So is it possible? If so...how likely?
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Old 07-06-2011, 09:37 PM   #2
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I'm going to call there is no way that IF a valve spring broke and you drove the car with a broken valve spring, that there is NO internal damage. I would get it in writing that the service manager says there is no damage, etc etc. Then take it to another shop and have them look at it. If they find damage then its the service manager's problem and his job on the line.
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Old 07-06-2011, 09:40 PM   #3
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Get them to do a leak down test on all cylinders, and if you have more loss in that cylinder he is full of it.
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Old 07-06-2011, 09:50 PM   #4
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That's what I thought too. He insisted on it and repeated it twice when I questioned him about it. Damn it now I'm all worried about the car. But why would he lie to me though? I still have the paperwork and it shows that it's a broken valve spring in cylinder #8 and the only parts on the list that they needed to fix it was the spring, seal kit, and gasket.

I'm tempted to bring it to a shop and have them pull the head to confirm...but I don't know how much they would charge for that. Is there any way to check besides pulling the head? I know in my other cars, I can pull the plugs and see right into the chamber. But it's kind of hard doing that on the LS3 since the plugs aren't on top of the engine.

But why would they have to lie about it though? I mean...the car only has 60 miles on it so it's still covered under warranty. If anything, they would WANT to replace the whole engine to make more money...
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Old 07-06-2011, 09:53 PM   #5
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Get them to do a leak down test on all cylinders, and if you have more loss in that cylinder he is full of it.

If he is full of S... I would think that he would lie about the leak down test being good as well. Is there a cost effect way for me to do it myself? How about a compression test? My biggest worry is that the chamber walls are scored up so that it will leak. I would think that a scored chamber would be the most costly for me to replace.
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Old 07-06-2011, 10:01 PM   #6
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They should have an inspection camera that can look through the spark plug hole to see any damage.
Like this one
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1...u=00981044000P
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Old 07-06-2011, 10:10 PM   #7
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Tell him you want to see the print out of the leak down test. He can't fake that.
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Old 07-06-2011, 10:16 PM   #8
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I would say your fine if the car runs okay. If the valve did drop and smack the piston you would know for sure. It is possible to have happen what the dealer claims. I've had this very thing happen on some of my drag cars with dual and triple springs.
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Old 07-06-2011, 11:11 PM   #9
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I would say your fine if the car runs okay. If the valve did drop and smack the piston you would know for sure. It is possible to have happen what the dealer claims. I've had this very thing happen on some of my drag cars with dual and triple springs.



Is it possible to drive for another 20 miles that way and not have it hit?
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Old 07-11-2011, 01:21 PM   #10
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Dual valve springs? Doubt it. Go to the parts department and have them print a picture of the valve spring intallation and part numbers. I wouldn't drive it, the spring and retainer may come apart and cause alot more damage.
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Old 07-11-2011, 01:34 PM   #11
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Even with double valve springs if you keep driving it pieces of that valve spring if it moves around could damage other components in the head...
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Old 07-11-2011, 03:29 PM   #12
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If the valve hit the piston, it would no longer seal.... would have been impossible to put a new spring on it using compressed air to hold up the valve. Since they replaced the spring without removing the head, I'll bet the valve is fine.

I've replaced broken valve springs before with no other damage. Depends on where it breaks at, and if the keepers come off.... I've seen them where they break real high up and and don't drop down much, but leak enough to cause a misfire and valvetrain noise. Put the compressed air to it and it seals perfect to get a new spring on - then do a leak down and it's perfect... good to go.

I've never seen a valve that hit the piston and you didn't need to tear it down to fix. It will be quite obvious it's screwed up if it did hit. When you pressurize the cylinder to put the new spring on, if the valve is all the way up, sealing perfectly, you can spin it and there is no wobbling.... it's more than likely just fine.
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Old 07-11-2011, 04:18 PM   #13
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Good to know. I was going to take it to a local shop and have them pull the head to check. Not sure how much they would charge. But in this case I'll probably put it off.
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Old 07-11-2011, 04:27 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nessal View Post
Good to know. I was going to take it to a local shop and have them pull the head to check. Not sure how much they would charge. But in this case I'll probably put it off.
Why are you not taking it to the dealer? Did I miss something? Was your warranty voided?
I mean you have a 5year 100,000 mile warranty, and you should not have to pay for anything, even if it has damaged the piston or cylinder.....
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Old 07-11-2011, 04:28 PM   #15
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if it didnt drop the valve then its most likely fine. Lots of people will "wink" a piston as well, never know it until they tear the engine down later to do heads or something and then notice a few blemishes in some piston tops...
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Old 07-11-2011, 05:50 PM   #16
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One of the few times we agree. A dual spring with one breaking can very well have caused no damage. We see it from time to time.....even on the 1000 plus hp alky motors with over .800 lift cam grinds we race.

CC is correct.
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Old 07-11-2011, 07:36 PM   #17
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I replace broken stock lq4 valve springs quite often at the dealership. I've never had a problem. These new single bolt cam active fuel engines seem to be in the shop with sheared pins and 16 bent valves. To the op, don't worry about it. When the springs break, the valve usually only drops the distance of one coil. Plus as the piston is coming up the air will pop the valve up against the rocker. If you do have a problem a miseries code will set.
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Old 07-15-2011, 10:53 PM   #18
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Why are you not taking it to the dealer? Did I miss something? Was your warranty voided?
I mean you have a 5year 100,000 mile warranty, and you should not have to pay for anything, even if it has damaged the piston or cylinder.....

I took it in already and they fixed it. They just replaced the valve spring and some seals. I asked the guy if there was any other damage and he said that since we have dual springs that there was no damage. I know we don't have dual springs but since he said it is fixed, I took his word for it.
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Old 07-16-2011, 08:30 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Nessal View Post
I took it in already and they fixed it. They just replaced the valve spring and some seals. I asked the guy if there was any other damage and he said that since we have dual springs that there was no damage. I know we don't have dual springs but since he said it is fixed, I took his word for it.
Sorry i thought you had been asking if it was ok to drive it with a broken vale spring until you could get someone to fix it. i misunderstood.
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Old 07-16-2011, 09:41 AM   #20
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We have the single yellow beehive springs. Since valve springs are compressed, if it breaks up high enough - there will still be enough compressed spring there to keep the spring from dropping. That is getting real lucky though, as often the keepers come off and it drops. Probably not enough seat pressure though to prevent misfire, noise, check engine light.

I've seen plenty of cars where the only complaint was a check engine light, and it turned out to be a broken valve spring. If the compression is perfect when changing the spring, the valve is fine. You'll know right away when changing the spring if the valve is bent, as you use compressed air to hold the valve up - it will be leaking like crazy.

Since the keepers didn't fall off while running, the spring always had pressure against the retainer/keepers - most likely never dropped down enough to hit the piston.

I'd bet it was a service writer that came up with the dual spring theory.
Often they speak theories and half truths to just come up with something to make you go away as quick as possible. The actual technician that worked on the car could probably explain better exactly what was found and that the repair is solid.
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Old 07-16-2011, 10:18 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyman 08 View Post
Sorry i thought you had been asking if it was ok to drive it with a broken vale spring until you could get someone to fix it. i misunderstood.

Never drive w/a broken spring!!! or even start the motor again. Usually when a sinle beehive breaks there is still enough contact between the two parts to keep the valve from dropping completey into the cyliner, but w/out the tension to keep the keeprs in place your in danger territory for sure.
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Old 07-16-2011, 11:18 AM   #22
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The same thing happened to me recently except the springs are fine (replaced beehives with dual springs recently) but yet the valve is still bent?
For now haven't pulled the heads off yet to examine the piston or chamber my shop will get to that sometime next week.
Any idea why that would happen?
The engine will start, but it will not go into gear (M6), we're thinking clutch gave out when I was driving on the hwy. and overrevs may have hammered the engine and caused the valve to bend (not sure if I'm using the correct technical jargon but something like that).
Also, is this an event that occurs often with these engines? If there's no damage is it a matter of replacing stock with aftermarket valves that are stronger?
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Old 07-16-2011, 11:42 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Skyman 08 View Post
They should have an inspection camera that can look through the spark plug hole to see any damage.
Like this one
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1...u=00981044000P
Now that's cool! And for $160? You have one of these?
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Old 07-16-2011, 07:38 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by calbert1999 View Post
The same thing happened to me recently except the springs are fine (replaced beehives with dual springs recently) but yet the valve is still bent?
For now haven't pulled the heads off yet to examine the piston or chamber my shop will get to that sometime next week.
Any idea why that would happen?
The engine will start, but it will not go into gear (M6), we're thinking clutch gave out when I was driving on the hwy. and overrevs may have hammered the engine and caused the valve to bend (not sure if I'm using the correct technical jargon but something like that).
Also, is this an event that occurs often with these engines? If there's no damage is it a matter of replacing stock with aftermarket valves that are stronger?
The only way to know will be a tear down and inspection. Several different possibilities for PTV damage.

Is the rev limiter still at the stock 6700? If the clutch just slipped it should have just hit the rev limiter with no damage. A mis shift to a too low a gear for the speed can mechanically over-rev and engine.

The stock valves should be fine for that application. They need to figure out the cause of the valves hitting the pistons and fix that. Did it mechanically over-rev, is there not adequate PTV clearance, did the cam
gear slip/sheared pin..... lots of possibilities.
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Old 07-16-2011, 09:59 PM   #25
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The only way to know will be a tear down and inspection. Several different possibilities for PTV damage.

Is the rev limiter still at the stock 6700? If the clutch just slipped it should have just hit the rev limiter with no damage. A mis shift to a too low a gear for the speed can mechanically over-rev and engine.

The stock valves should be fine for that application. They need to figure out the cause of the valves hitting the pistons and fix that. Did it mechanically over-rev, is there not adequate PTV clearance, did the cam
gear slip/sheared pin..... lots of possibilities.
Good points. No I was not reving hard at all nowhere near 6k I was doing about 60kms. on the hwy. in 4th. vehicle started bucking, so thought clutch gave. Drove off to side of road, called OnStar, engine light went off, so took a chance to drive again, and kaplunk, ping, bang, rattle. Next thing I know I'm on a flatbed. Even previously I'd go from 4th. to 3rd. to get RPM's higher but very rare I'd go anywhere close to 6k.

I'll know more on Monday regarding the tear down, but CAM is the 3pin. type so I should be good with that. I'm sure they'll do a thorough job. Thanks for feedback.
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