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Old 08-11-2009, 03:24 PM   #1
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I thought no politics on the forum meant NO POLITICS ON THE FORUM!

Seriously this is getting silly. If there's a rule, that rule should be upheld, regardless of the politics you're discussing. There's an almost outright hate towards liberals at times here which I found disheartening.

I know the muscle car culture inherently attracts more conservatives then liberals, but there are some of us here and quite frankly we are not the enemy, we too want V8s to stay, we too love RWD, we too love fun cars, and I know I at least have many times "bit my tongue" so as to not react on some of the things said since I thought the rule "No Politics" applied to everyone.

So please all posters stop this and let's just come together in our love for cars, the Camaro in particular. And please mods, enforce this rule more vigorously. If it's a rule, then it's a rule and everyone should follow it.


Thank you for your time.
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Old 08-11-2009, 04:05 PM   #2
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Haha, I got in before the first lock.

BTW, what is politic?



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Old 08-11-2009, 04:06 PM   #3
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You telling us how to do our job? And what thread or threads are you talking about?
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Old 08-11-2009, 04:07 PM   #4
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You telling us how to do our job? And what thread or threads are you talking about?..and isnt this thread discussing politics? I better close it..lol
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Old 08-11-2009, 04:17 PM   #5
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if there's anything you want us to look at. Use the report button at the bottom of every post.
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Old 08-12-2009, 03:04 PM   #6
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Closed
re-opened

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emher View Post
Seriously this is getting silly. If there's a rule, that rule should be upheld, regardless of the politics you're discussing. There's an almost outright hate towards liberals at times here which I found disheartening.

I know the muscle car culture inherently attracts more conservatives then liberals, but there are some of us here and quite frankly we are not the enemy, we too want V8s to stay, we too love RWD, we too love fun cars, and I know I at least have many times "bit my tongue" so as to not react on some of the things said since I thought the rule "No Politics" applied to everyone.

So please all posters stop this and let's just come together in our love for cars, the Camaro in particular. And please mods, enforce this rule more vigorously. If it's a rule, then it's a rule and everyone should follow it.


Thank you for your time.
As I always explain it, the no-politics rule works something like this:
thought out discussion of what is happening is allowed. But unfounded generalizations and characterization from either end of the spectrum is not.

From the rules:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tran View Post
3) No Politics we tried this before, it didn't work. Too much emotion and spill-over into the other areas of the site. We are open to the idea in the future if our members can prove that then can discuss politics rather than argue and make over the top partisan remarks. What is allowed are facts as they relates to the auto industry. Saying "the Obama administration has the majority of the shares in GM" is allowed, but launching into a tirade along the lines of "those damm Communists in Washington are trying to nationalize everything" simply isn't.
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Old 08-12-2009, 04:49 PM   #7
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First off, thank you DGthe3 for re-opening the thread.

Thank you for clarifying it for me, I had misunderstood the rule. Sadly I still think it is mostly generalized statements that I have seen. And it's happened throughout the forums so it's not like it's an isolated phenomenon.

Recently the most shocking of which was in this thread http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36730 in post nr 31 and 38. As you will see I reacted to those in my post nr 66. Those where really out of the blue and think you will agree where some pretty blatant generalizations and just plain ignorant.

And believe me, I want to talk these kinds of things trough. Just because someone doesn't agree with me politically doesn't mean I automatically think they're an idiot. Although some posts make me wonder.

In the future I'll make sure to report posts that I find in violations of the rule.
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Old 08-12-2009, 04:55 PM   #8
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We should all help the mods with reporting posts that violate forum guidelines!
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Old 08-12-2009, 05:06 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emher View Post
So please all posters stop this and let's just come together in our love for cars, the Camaro in particular. And please mods, enforce this rule more vigorously. If it's a rule, then it's a rule and everyone should follow it.
I think you would be the first person to request this.
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Old 08-12-2009, 05:08 PM   #10
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I think you would be the first person to request this.
I believe so
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Old 08-12-2009, 05:17 PM   #11
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I for one believe a rational political discussion can occur in this forum. If a separate section is created and there is a disclaimer which lets everyone know as they enter that if they personally attack anyone they will not be allowed to re-enter the area. Furthermore to keep people from creating new users and simply going back in, you place restrictions where only members that have been on the site for six months may be allowed to post in the area.. With those two simple rules in place, a free flowing discussion by those interested can and will occur..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emher View Post
Seriously this is getting silly. If there's a rule, that rule should be upheld, regardless of the politics you're discussing. There's an almost outright hate towards liberals at times here which I found disheartening.

I know the muscle car culture inherently attracts more conservatives then liberals, but there are some of us here and quite frankly we are not the enemy, we too want V8s to stay, we too love RWD, we too love fun cars, and I know I at least have many times "bit my tongue" so as to not react on some of the things said since I thought the rule "No Politics" applied to everyone.

So please all posters stop this and let's just come together in our love for cars, the Camaro in particular. And please mods, enforce this rule more vigorously. If it's a rule, then it's a rule and everyone should follow it.


Thank you for your time.
If my rules above were in place, you wouldn't have to even go to that area if you wouldn't want to since it would be contained. It is unavoidable that people have feelings and at times need to express their emotions on political subjects, especially since our Government is intertwined with what is happening to General Motors. Don't you think having a controlled section would lessen the amount of those emotions leaking into posts in other areas of the forum if those people have a place to go? I believe it would be a win win situation for you since there would be less of a chance you would see political posts in other areas? Don't you think?
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Old 08-12-2009, 07:24 PM   #12
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Ok. Now my post looks silly.

Gotta edit.
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Old 08-12-2009, 08:00 PM   #13
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Old 08-12-2009, 08:21 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supermans View Post
I for one believe a rational political discussion can occur in this forum. If a separate section is created and there is a disclaimer which lets everyone know as they enter that if they personally attack anyone they will not be allowed to re-enter the area. Furthermore to keep people from creating new users and simply going back in, you place restrictions where only members that have been on the site for six months may be allowed to post in the area.. With those two simple rules in place, a free flowing discussion by those interested can and will occur..

If my rules above were in place, you wouldn't have to even go to that area if you wouldn't want to since it would be contained. It is unavoidable that people have feelings and at times need to express their emotions on political subjects, especially since our Government is intertwined with what is happening to General Motors. Don't you think having a controlled section would lessen the amount of those emotions leaking into posts in other areas of the forum if those people have a place to go? I believe it would be a win win situation for you since there would be less of a chance you would see political posts in other areas? Don't you think?
Well, you certainly have a thoughtful proposition. Here's the previous issue we ran into, though...and I suspect even in your case, it would happen.

I'm sure you're aware that we did have a dedicated section at one point. There were two very large issues with it. One, people couldn't contain themselves. And we were left with massive cleanup jobs on our hands right in the middle of another mess. I think that within two weeks, we'd have kicked 90% of people out of the proposed section. Two, It spills out into the forum regardless of the civility. And then that pisses off all the people that intentionally stay out of the dedicated section. This, again, leaves us to clean up a mess.

Frankly, we felt bad that our members couldn't handle politics without resorting to....less-than-nice...comments all the time, but we haven't seen a change. I don't mean to pick on Emher, but I suspect that if this rule didn't exist for him to use as rationalization, he'd have retaliated in full-force. This is true of most members.

Let me set up a scenario for you -- suppose you create a political thread with 0 slant(this is important, because the OP sets the tone for the thread), and intend only to discuss a policy as it pertains to the auto Industry. Suppose it goes without a blasting post for three pages. Suppose it dies because the discussion reached it's end. This is fine. I don't believe any of the mods would have deleted it.

Suppose the above scenario happens again, but post 10 is a failure of a post. Rude, slanted, and absolutely uncalled for. We're back to square one.

And starting to kick people out of sections because they can't handle it is a good idea, but I don't think it's practical....it rubs people wrong, and it really doesn't remove the problem. Said punk will likely go into a different thread and blast somebody for getting kicked out of the section, plus, he/she had to create a problem to get kicked out in the first place....

Quote:
Originally Posted by patriotpa View Post
We should all help the mods with reporting posts that violate forum guidelines!
That would be VERY appreciated, and it's really the easiest way to get a case-by-case issue solved quickly. Those reported posts are emailed to us, and I for one have my email open the entire time I'm on the forum.
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Old 08-12-2009, 09:28 PM   #15
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I thought this was fitting.

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Old 08-12-2009, 11:32 PM   #16
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Well, you certainly have a thoughtful proposition. Here's the previous issue we ran into, though...and I suspect even in your case, it would happen.

I'm sure you're aware that we did have a dedicated section at one point. There were two very large issues with it. One, people couldn't contain themselves. And we were left with massive cleanup jobs on our hands right in the middle of another mess. I think that within two weeks, we'd have kicked 90% of people out of the proposed section. Two, It spills out into the forum regardless of the civility. And then that pisses off all the people that intentionally stay out of the dedicated section. This, again, leaves us to clean up a mess.

Frankly, we felt bad that our members couldn't handle politics without resorting to....less-than-nice...comments all the time, but we haven't seen a change. I don't mean to pick on Emher, but I suspect that if this rule didn't exist for him to use as rationalization, he'd have retaliated in full-force. This is true of most members.

Let me set up a scenario for you -- suppose you create a political thread with 0 slant(this is important, because the OP sets the tone for the thread), and intend only to discuss a policy as it pertains to the auto Industry. Suppose it goes without a blasting post for three pages. Suppose it dies because the discussion reached it's end. This is fine. I don't believe any of the mods would have deleted it.

Suppose the above scenario happens again, but post 10 is a failure of a post. Rude, slanted, and absolutely uncalled for. We're back to square one.

And starting to kick people out of sections because they can't handle it is a good idea, but I don't think it's practical....it rubs people wrong, and it really doesn't remove the problem. Said punk will likely go into a different thread and blast somebody for getting kicked out of the section, plus, he/she had to create a problem to get kicked out in the first place....



That would be VERY appreciated, and it's really the easiest way to get a case-by-case issue solved quickly. Those reported posts are emailed to us, and I for one have my email open the entire time I'm on the forum.
I know you had a dedicated section, however allowing only rank and file members that have over six months of being here to be a part of and then controlling it by kicking out people who would get out of hand is something that wasn't done. If someone was to get out of hand, gets kicked out, and decides to continue ranting and calling a member names outside the area then they get further suspended and wouldn't be someone you would want in the forum anyways.. Most loyal members to this site would be respectful to each other regardless of their political affiliations. There are members here of all ages, and most trouble makers would be people that don't care if they get booted from the site. I think you guys should give it a try once more, especially with all that is going on politically. I think you would be surprised how quickly those immature folks get booted and how quickly the conversations become enlightening and useful to all the community.
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Old 08-12-2009, 11:42 PM   #17
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That would be VERY appreciated, and it's really the easiest way to get a case-by-case issue solved quickly. Those reported posts are emailed to us, and I for one have my email open the entire time I'm on the forum.
I get an automatic notification when im on my computer and on my phone when im away.
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Old 08-12-2009, 11:47 PM   #18
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I think you guys should give it a try once more, especially with all that is going on politically. I think you would be surprised how quickly those immature folks get booted and how quickly the conversations become enlightening and useful to all the community.
I can assure you it's something that regularly comes up...we (as a group) just see overwhelming evidence against doing it again...ever. But we will keep your thoughts in mind.
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Old 08-13-2009, 12:46 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emher View Post
First off, thank you DGthe3 for re-opening the thread.

Thank you for clarifying it for me, I had misunderstood the rule. Sadly I still think it is mostly generalized statements that I have seen. And it's happened throughout the forums so it's not like it's an isolated phenomenon.

Recently the most shocking of which was in this thread http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36730 in post nr 31 and 38. As you will see I reacted to those in my post nr 66. Those where really out of the blue and think you will agree where some pretty blatant generalizations and just plain ignorant.

And believe me, I want to talk these kinds of things trough. Just because someone doesn't agree with me politically doesn't mean I automatically think they're an idiot. Although some posts make me wonder.
I understand your frustration, go ahead and send me a PM if you want to vent.
Quote:
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In the future I'll make sure to report posts that I find in violations of the rule.
Quote:
Originally Posted by patriotpa View Post
We should all help the mods with reporting posts that violate forum guidelines!
That would be much appreciated. As the forum has grown, we have come to rely more and more on reported posts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supermans View Post
I know you had a dedicated section, however allowing only rank and file members that have over six months of being here to be a part of and then controlling it by kicking out people who would get out of hand is something that wasn't done. If someone was to get out of hand, gets kicked out, and decides to continue ranting and calling a member names outside the area then they get further suspended and wouldn't be someone you would want in the forum anyways.. Most loyal members to this site would be respectful to each other regardless of their political affiliations. There are members here of all ages, and most trouble makers would be people that don't care if they get booted from the site. I think you guys should give it a try once more, especially with all that is going on politically. I think you would be surprised how quickly those immature folks get booted and how quickly the conversations become enlightening and useful to all the community.
As it says in the rules, we're welcome to the idea of bringing back political discussion once our members prove that they are mature enough to do so. However, I haven't seen any improvement to justify it yet. I supported the idea in the first place, and fought to keep it for a while until it was obviously beyond hope. I welcome the day when we can discus politics here again. But I don't think that is going to happen in the near future.
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Old 08-13-2009, 06:31 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
Well, you certainly have a thoughtful proposition. Here's the previous issue we ran into, though...and I suspect even in your case, it would happen.

I'm sure you're aware that we did have a dedicated section at one point. There were two very large issues with it. One, people couldn't contain themselves. And we were left with massive cleanup jobs on our hands right in the middle of another mess. I think that within two weeks, we'd have kicked 90% of people out of the proposed section. Two, It spills out into the forum regardless of the civility. And then that pisses off all the people that intentionally stay out of the dedicated section. This, again, leaves us to clean up a mess.

Frankly, we felt bad that our members couldn't handle politics without resorting to....less-than-nice...comments all the time, but we haven't seen a change. I don't mean to pick on Emher, but I suspect that if this rule didn't exist for him to use as rationalization, he'd have retaliated in full-force. This is true of most members.

Let me set up a scenario for you -- suppose you create a political thread with 0 slant(this is important, because the OP sets the tone for the thread), and intend only to discuss a policy as it pertains to the auto Industry. Suppose it goes without a blasting post for three pages. Suppose it dies because the discussion reached it's end. This is fine. I don't believe any of the mods would have deleted it.

Suppose the above scenario happens again, but post 10 is a failure of a post. Rude, slanted, and absolutely uncalled for. We're back to square one.

And starting to kick people out of sections because they can't handle it is a good idea, but I don't think it's practical....it rubs people wrong, and it really doesn't remove the problem. Said punk will likely go into a different thread and blast somebody for getting kicked out of the section, plus, he/she had to create a problem to get kicked out in the first place....
I find the idea of a separate section for politics very interesting. There's a similar section at another forum I've frequented for close to seven years now, there pretty much all political discussions get moved when they get too heated. You choose to join this part of the forum, and much more is allowed there and the moderation is also much more light in this section.

Myself has never seen any need to join this section because I don't want to bother with the stuff I know goes on in there (it was public at one point). I simply frequent the rest of the forums since most of the one can pass unscathed trough there and be met with mutual respect, regardless one ones political opinions.

And sorry to disappoint, but I make it a point never to sink to those levels. Simple bashing, bullying and name calling is something that was done to me for many years in school so I don't do that unto others. If there's something worth discussing, it's worth discussing in an intelligent way.

As for the last section, this is where we digress. I think a system where people get kicked would work. First you give them a few warnings and if they don't rectify their ways they get banned, either for a month, a few months or in really severe cases a permanent ban.


And thank you for the offer DGthe3, at the moment I'm fine but I may take you up on that some time.
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Old 08-13-2009, 07:04 AM   #21
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As for the last section, this is where we digress. I think a system where people get kicked would work. First you give them a few warnings and if they don't rectify their ways they get banned, either for a month, a few months or in really severe cases a permanent ban.


And thank you for the offer DGthe3, at the moment I'm fine but I may take you up on that some time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
I can assure you it's something that regularly comes up...we (as a group) just see overwhelming evidence against doing it again...ever. But we will keep your thoughts in mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
I think that within two weeks, we'd have kicked 90% of people out of the proposed section.
Ofcourse it will work. Or at least has a much much better chance of working than before. It just hasn't been tried here before in the manner I laid out. The mods keep saying it may be opened up in the future.. However what future are they waiting for? If you are planning to wait until politics in general die down, its not going to happen anytime soon with all the radical change that is happening. You will see that healthy discussion can occur and it would limit the amount of "political talk" that spills into other threads if people have a place to go when they want to discuss certain topics. Now that the Government has taken over GM and owns it, politics has become an integral part in GM's future decision making. If we don't like something that the Government is doing in regards to GM, the only way to come up with alternative solutions or ideas would be to go against current admins views which would lean to the left. In order to understand why certain decisions are made, politics may play a larger factor than anything else. Deleting or censoring any anti-Government rhetoric at that point to me is in a way protecting the administrations decisions with GM and squelching that kind of talk is not healthy. A healthy debate is sometimes needed and as time goes on will be even more important. Most people in this forum are good people and the vast majority would have a choice not to join if they want to stay away and the rest would participate without personal attacks or malice toward other members. Mentioning conservative and liberal ideas would be OK as long as they are generalized.. It could be done better than it was done before.


Hopefully Tran takes my idea into consideration when he does decide to try giving more "freedom" to the members of this forum. And again, you cannot compare what was done before with what I am proposing. I do remember the political area before..Anyone could post, even brand new members.. There was the biggest mistakes right from day one. You have to limit the members who can join to at least 6 months of being on the site and having over 1000 posts for example. Then when someone gets out of line, you ban them for good.. I honestly don't think 90% of the people would be banned like you think Dragoneye within the first few weeks.. If they are, it simply would make the job easier for the admins after week two .. At the moment, most people don't visit the off-topic section so this thread will not get read by the majority of visitors in this forum. A separate section would eventually get noticed and as time goes on, more people may wish to participate. It would allow this forum to grow a bit more and be ahead of the curve compared to the other GM sites that also block political talk for fear of scaring away advertisers. In this forums case, there are no advertisers at the moment.
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Old 08-13-2009, 10:27 AM   #22
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You know what, lets try this again. It's not up for discussion, or debate. We've decided not to allow it. period.

If you don't like it you can go to a political forum and take your agenda there.

Junkie was 100% right.

IMO, This thread should have stayed closed. And in doing so we would have actually proven our resolve to eliminate the political debate on this site.

Sure we are tolerant with mustang owners, and chally owners, and GTR fans, and pick a car enthusiasts. THIS IS A CAR FORUM!!!!!

There is only one rule here that we enforce without debate. Politics. From either side of the issue. Dem, Rep, Green, Libertarian... It doesn't matter.

Time for all of us to get over it.

Closed.
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