PEDDERS SUCCESSFULLY FITS 305s ON ALL 4 CORNERS!

[ShnOmac]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Tell Sam I said he should call me.

Not sure that would go over to well......

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by ShnOmac

Not sure that would go over to well......

I'll make him an offer he can't refuse.

[JusticePete]

Camaro5FEST III Pedders Super Sale

[JusticePete]

What were we talking about in this thread... Bridgestone RE11 305/30 on 10.5 x 19 Forgeline ZX3 light weight racing wheels.







There is more to our choice of wheels and tires. Talk to any engineer with race experience and from a sheet of paper they can tell you why a Camaro in OEM trim suffers from significant understeer. The tale of the tape tells the story.

Front Track 63.7"
Rear Track 64.1'
Front Wheel 20 x 8
Rear Wheel 20 x 9
Front Tire P245/45ZR20
Rear Tire P275/40 ZR20
Weight Balance 52/48
Front Sway Bar Diameter 24mm
Rear Sway Bar Diameter 23mm

The understeer is built into the vehicle from the ground up. Pedders felt it necessary to bring out the true potential of the ZETA II Camaro to alter the car from the ground up.

Front Track 65.7"
Rear Track 64.6'
Front Wheel 19 x 10.5
Rear Wheel 19 x 10.5
Front Tire 305/30/19
Rear Tire 305/30/19
Weight Balance 52/48
Front Sway Bar Diameter 27mm
Rear Sway Bar Diameter 32mm

When the dimensional changes are combined with upgraded suspension components the Camaro become a virtual Supercar. We are at 141 MPH in 4th gear pulling effortlessly to redline. 175 MPH is the fastest we have run the car and we can tell you she was not breathing hard ready and was ready for more. Only a fool will find the limits of a Pedderised Camaro on public road ways and depending on the race track, given there is no cage in the car, we doubt we will ever take our Camaro to the limit ANYWHERE.

Camaro Track Testing At Gingerman 10/10/09

We have been talking with all of you about our R & D process on the Camaro, literally for years. It started back with the Aussie VZ chassis (Commodore, Ute, Statesman, Monaro and GTO) almost 25 years ago. That is roughly when Holden brought the Opel chassis to AU. That well regarded range of vehicles led GM to assign the Global Rear Wheel Drive Platform to Holden and created the opportunity for Chevrolet to bring back the Camaro. The first product out the gate for the revolutionary ZETA chassis was the Holden Commodore. It was followed by the Pontiac G8. Chevrolet started on the refinement of ZETA just a bit more than three years ago. While Chevy was tuning the ZETA II chassis for the Camaro Pedders was developing the finest suspension systems for the Pontiac G8. How good are the GTO and G8 when Pedderised -- they run this close to a Vette on a highly technical race track, on a track where the low center of gravity, the light weight, the great brakes should allow the American Performance Icon to destroy the much larger and heavier GTO and G8. It doesn't happen because Pedders has designed a complete system for these vehicles that allow them to perform as though they were 1,500 pounds lighter. We can't change the laws of physics, but we can cheat or bend them here and there or at least try to make the impossible possible. So where does that leave our 2010 Camaro? I suggest you ask Staci, Kim or Pedders.

Staci



Kim












Maximum Lateral Gs in a turn do not represent a single event. We look at the data collected and use the numbers that have been repeated across multiple runs. These are a bit lower than the peaks recorded by the DL1 as Max Lat.



These are exactly what they say they are. These are the top speeds reached by the cars at Gingerman. There were a number of limiting factors at the track. It was cold. The hottest the track got was 54 degrees. Getting the tires to optimum range was a challenge. To make matters worse it had rained for almost two weeks. The track was washed clean. There was no residual rubber on the track making the track very slick. It is why we ran all the cars the same day to eliminate as many variables as possible. Even the temperature stayed consistent. When the sun was out it felt a bit warmer, but is was basically a 54 degree day all day track side.

The GTO and G8 incurred technical issues out on the track. We found that both vehicles suffered from fuel starvation due to the high G loads in the turns. Chris Brannon would have to back off and wait to accelerate hard out of the turns because of the drop in fuel pressure. Compounding that were the OEM differentials in the GTO and G8. Both have wear from daily driving and general abuse. We don't think that is the issue. Pulling 1G at a high rate of speed is different from a skid pad. In many of the turns we are well into over steer, counter steering and applying power. This transfers enormous amounts of load to the outside rear drive wheel. The OEM differentials just give up and the unloaded inner wheel spins in a one wheel peel. Both Camaros and the Corvette did not demonstrate these issues and were virtually perfect at the limits of handling.

This is a calculation made using data from the accelerometers based on acceleration. Chris, our driver, will tell you he could not put down power due to the track conditions in ANY of the cars. What he is really saying in that he could have done better on a seasoned track on a warmer day with the same cars and setups. He is spot on. It is also a factor that he is accustomed to driving on full race tires. All of the cars we tested would have done far better on full race tires. The more powerful the car, the great the benefit would have been for this measurement. How much difference do we think full race tires would make for a test like this -- between 3 to 5 seconds. On the over powered Pedders Camaro, maybe more.


.................Front Tire Size.........Rear Tire Size

Camaro...................245/45/19..............275/40/20
Corvette..................245/40/18..............285/35/19
Pedders Camaro.......305/30/19..............305/30/19
Pedders G8..............275/35/19..............275/35/19
Pedders GTO............275/35/18..............295/30/18

.................Tire Pressure Cold
............................ LF......RF......LR.......RR
Camaro..................33......33......33.......3 3
Corvette.................33......33......33....... 33
Pedders Camaro......33......33......33.......33
Pedders G8.............33......33......33.......33
Pedders GTO...........33......33......33.......33

......................Tire Pressure Hot
.............................LF......RF......LR... ....RR
Camaro.................40.9....40.2....39.9.....39 .1
Corvette................39.2....37.5....38.4.....3 7.8
Pedders Camaro......44......44.......41.7.....41.3
Pedders G8.............42.0...41.3....42.0.....40.4
Pedders GTO...........40.4...39.8....40.7.....40.3

Yes we used a tire pressure gauge that reads in tenths of a pound.
[B]

.........................Tire Temperatures Hot
.........................LF Outer....LF Center.....LF Inner
Camaro..................123...........114......... .103
Corvette................108...........102......... ..96
Pedders Camaro.....109...........104..........121
Pedders G8............102...........108......... 106
Pedders GTO............97...........97............99

.......................RF Outer....RF Center.....RF Inner
Camaro..................131..........120.......... ..115
Corvette................110..........109.......... ..108
Pedders Camaro.....167..........169............152
Pedders G8............109..........116............120
Pedders GTO..........101...........99............100

...................... LR Outer....LR Center.....LR Inner
Camaro...................113..........105......... ...116
Corvette....................93...........90....... ......89
Pedders Camaro.......109..........106............142
Pedders G8................97...........98............108
Pedders GTO..............76...........86............101

.......................RR Outer....RR Center......RR Inner
Camaro....................107..........106........ ....112
Corvette....................96..........110....... .....105
Pedders Camaro........120..........120............163
Pedders G8...............106..........116............123
Pedders GTO...............85...........90.............98

It would appear that the aggressive driving style of Chris Brannon and the exceptional balance of the Pedderised Camaro combined to heat up the tires. Of all the cars on the track, the most neutral, the car with the least under steer was the Camaro. The transition from neutral to over steer was complete predictable regardless of the track conditions or Chris aggressively jumping the corners. Nothing unsettled the car all day. My driving skills (Pete Basica) are better than many but nothing near the excellence of Chris. I was able to steer through corners, use a bit of over steer to slip through corners and flat out drift an entire corner. The Camaro makes me a far better driver because it is such a competent and complete car.

...........................Brake Temperatures Hot

........................LF Rotor.....RF Rotor.....LR Rotor.....RR Rotor
Camaro.....................494..........440....... ...335..........296
Corvette...................370..........348....... ...411..........391
Pedders Camaro........738..........644..........361....... ...335
Pedders G8...............607..........518..........476.... ......407
Pedders GTO.............448..........336..........462..... .....416

......................LF Caliper...RF Caliper...LR Caliper...RR Caliper
Camaro......................228.........210....... ....159..........147
Corvette.....................192.........165...... .....185..........174
Pedders Camaro..........372.........366...........207..... .....178
Pedders G8.................370.........364...........322.. ........293
Pedders GTO...............253.........236...........176... .......162

Our Pedderised Camaro brakes were clearly the hottest. There is good reason for that. We had to Black Flag Chris to get him off the track or he would have run until the tank was empty. Our Pedderised Camaro is that much fun to drive. You never want to slow down or stop driving. Each car was prepared carefully for the track with the exception of the Corvette and OEM Camaro. We ran only enough hot laps on those two cars to get good data. They are not our cars and we promised to return them in once piece. That doesn't mean they were not run hard. They were wrung out, just not repeatedly like the GTO, G8 but especially our Pedderised Camaro. Even with the rotors smoking we had no brake fade -- none thanks to Cobalt Friction ZX1 and ZX3 pads. Our custom made lines are braided stainless with red vinyl coating and OEM ends with strain relief. We even used the OEM mounts.

Justice Pete & Chris Brannon Driver Extraordinaire

The tale of the tape is complete. What is know where near complete is how we got here and how the Camaro really drives. It all starts with tires and wheels. You need to address the front and rear track of the Camaro with LIGHTWEIGHT 19" wheels. We use Dave at Forgeline where we feel we get the absolute best service and best quality product. Forgeline designed a set of wheel with a proprietary offset to add 2" of front track and 1/2 inch of rear track creating a net increase up front on 1.5 inches. Bridgestone makes the RE-11 and we consider it the king of street tires. We run 305/30 19s all the way around on our 19 x 10.5" Forgeline rims. We pulled just under 40 pounds out of the four corners while dramatically increasing the tire contact patch. This was a killer first step in the process.

Next up we added power. Our longtime business partners ProCharger came through again. They installed a QUIET blower and bypass that are undetectable with the hood closed. We are making 480 Torque and 530 RWHP through our American Racing Headers and QTP cutouts. The American Racing headers offered a weight savings that was more important to us than RWHP. Anything we can do to reduce weight is desirable. Our Camaro has enough power to literally scare you on the street or track, A byproduct of the 305/30/19s is a gear ration change by tire diameter from a 3.45 to a 3.77. That is one more reason we had issues getting power down at the track.

What is last in this discussion should be first on your list if you own a Camaro -- PEDDERS SUSPENSION. Changing out the radius arm and sub-frame bushes are the two most critical modifications that should be made to EVERY Camaro that is built and sold. Our bushes remove the terminal bush squish squirm that creates instabilities in handling from a foundational level. It all starts with these two parts. We already addressed unsprung rate with our Forgeline lightweight wheels and Bridgestone RE-11 tires. These same modifications do double duty in correcting the narrow front track that is the OEM specification. The track correction addresses under steer as do all our suspension modifications as we strive to bring a finely honed edge to a well made Chevrolet knife.

In the rear we replaced every OEM suspension bush with the exception of the specialty OEM monoballs. We went deeper into the car and upgraded the OEM voided rubber differential bushes with Pedders street friendly urethane to increase the vehicle's ability to handle the increase in RWHP and Torque. Then we moved to the dampers. Pedders Xa eXtreme coilovers are 46mm high pressure monotube units. You'll see them on every GM owned Camaros at SEMA and on most of the GM sponsored Camaros at SEMA. They are height adjustable by screwing down into or out of the mounting brackets. Raising or lowering the car does not alter the jounce travel (a GM term describing the distance of suspensions travel before contact with the bump stop). This preserves ride quality at all ride heights. The Pedders Camaro was destined for some serious track time. We have it riding very very low. I do drive it as my daily driver. We drive the kids to school and go any where the mood moves us in our super low Camaro. There are certainly speed bumps that we drag on, but it is really no different than driving a Corvette. You know it is low and approach at a 45 degree angle to reduce points of contact. I have been doing this for years and it is second nature to me. many of you would find my car undrivable because it is almost on the ground. No problem the Xa coilover are height adjustable. They are also have 30 preset damping adjustments. You have full control over both the high and low speed cycles. They are easy to adjust as long as you can count to 30.

With the full suspension in place including wheels and tires our Pedderised Camaro was almost track ready. What was required next were the right diameter sway bars. You'll see many options in the market. I can tell you from my testing that we feel Pedders has the best solutions available in the market. For the typical Camaro owner a single front 27mm bar will steady your Camaro under most daily driving conditions and make sweepers your favorite turn or twist of the day. A single front bar solution does nothing to address under steer and when you reach under steer it will be worse than it was from the factory. Most Camaro drivers will never reach that level and that is why we offer this practical solution that reduces lean and roll to make your driving experience better than stock.

For the more aggressive driver we have a second set of bar that offer three positions of adjustment. These are a matched set of 27mm bars for the enthusiast. These bars are a huge step up and bring more balance to your Camaro. If you occasionally hit the track or auto-cross these bars are for you. You will know the first time you enter a turn.

For the serious track person. For those with extensive SCCA or NASA experience. For those that understand that lifting off the throttle when you are in over steer is a really bad idea and won't make a mistake worse by hitting the brake we offer Pedders Solution C. The C stands for COMPETITION. These bars on your Pedderised Camaro will allow you to choose how to traverse a corner -- STEER, OVER STEER or DRIFT. If you know how to drive your FULLY Pedderised Camaro will not under steer again. These are made for serious drives and come with a disclaimer. When matched with a full Pedders system your Camaro will over steer. ONLY DRIVERS that know how to handle this should purchase this COMPETITION set of bars. That is why we made them -- so Camaro owners can watch the race from the front row in their rear view mirror.

All of Pedders sway bars are sold complete with HD endlinks. The studs on the endlinks are larger than the OEM studs. This means it is one of the very few Pedders products that requires you to use a drill on your car. The front strut endlink bracket must be drilled to fit as well as the rear endlink bracket. The are HD double ball joint endlinks. They are also adjustable. For those of you with Pedders coilovers you Pedders sway bar endlinks can be cut to fit making corner weighting more accurate. It is all part of any sway bar solution you purchase from Pedders for your Camaro.

Spring rate, damping rate, stable foundation through bushes and finally sway bars. Sway bars are a TUNING ELEMENT and not a solution. You can use an oversize bar to mask a deficiency in the vehicle, but only to a point. A rear sub-frame that steps out from NVH voided bushes will still step out with the best sway bar in the world. The cause wasn't a too small OEM sway bar. The cause was the NVH voided sub-frame bush that is fine for the more mild mannered Camaro driver, but completely unacceptable to the more demanding enthusiast driver. The Camaro is one of the best cars to ever be built in volume production. The monocoque is exceptionally strong. It doesn't need all the Band-Aid braces that are so deeply ingrained into the Muscle Car community. Let me say this one more time -- DON'T BUY A BRACE FOR YOUR CAMARO -- IT DOESN'T NEED THEM. Now if you are building a full on race car with a cage and no interior, brace away. Street Camaro's don't need any Band-Aids. They need foundational street friendly urethane bushes. Bushes that will not beat you up on your daily drive. A fully Pedderised Camaro has a ride quality equal to an Audi RS series. It is taut, but not harsh. We will return to Gingerman for a piece of unfinished business next spring / summer. With one item left to accomplish we left Gingerman with the knowledge that our fully Pedderised Camaro is not a wannabe. It is the real deal and in the hands of Chris Brannon it is off the charts. Watch the video again and again. See how stable it is no matter how hard he jumps the corner. Nothing unsettles it and he is running it at 10/10ths.



7 Seconds is an eternity on one lap. If you want your Camaro to be among the best on the road it will have to be Pedderised.

This is my PERSONAL OPINION and not a recommendation from Pedders, Bridgestone or GM. A general rule of thumb would be that the tires should be capable of holding the vehicle weight plus 50% for a passenger vehicle.

Camaro 4,000
Additional Load at 50% 2,000
Tire Load Rating 6,000 as a minimum

Once again, this is just my opinion. It is a common sense approach and not the recommendation of any of these companies. The Camaro in this thread is my personal vehicle and not owned by Pedders. You should always follow the manufacture recommended tire and wheel fitments.

Speaking as a car guy and not for any company or with any inside information, GM selected the tire and wheel packages for the Camaro based on heavy influence from the design team. The OEM tires and wheel fill the huge wheel arches and look great. There is no question about it -- the Camaro looks great. That said they are rather large. These large wheels and tires provide benefits:

• They are very smooth over bumps and pot holes.
• They put down the power efficiently.
• They look great.

There are negatives;

• They are heavy.
• They require a lot of breaking power.
• They feel like they take forever to get moving.
• They limit tire selection.

It is my opinion that the style drove the Tire Load Rating for the Camaro and not an engineering parameter that generated a potential 4 TON load for a four seat passenger vehicle.

The Pedders USA Camaro has a mission. We intend to break the performance ranges of a C6 Corvette for LESS than price of a Corvette and do it with space for four people. We need to get more rubber on the ground, especially up front to do this. We need to improve braking without spending money for six pot brakes. We need more power with a goal of 600 RWHP on a budget. We need more alignment adjustment range to improve turn in and tracking. We need to get the car over 1G on the skid pad and on the track in real turns at speed.

To do all this we will bend a few rules. In bending these rules we do not want to compromise safety. No one I have discussed this with had any concern over safety with my tire selection. Everyone I spoke with did raise the issue of being below the manufacture recommended Tire Load Rating -- in my opinion -- solely for CYA reasons. Is the tire safe? Off the record the answer was unanimously yes. On the record, no one said it was not safe. They all said it was below the MFG spec and a non-compliant application.

We will follow our own judgment when our goals conflict with a rule. Having said that, my family rides in this vehicle so my personal measure of safety for my family trumps everything else. In the end, it is incumbent on me to make the final decision for this project and to make certain that the vehicle is safe for my family and for my professional drivers on the track. In doing so the liability becomes 100% mine.

Why I am I writing all of this? To make certain you all understand that the mfg has made decisions that involve vehicle safety and you should ALWAYS follow them. That I have bent or broken the rules does not make me right. My professional recommendation is no different than all the advice I received. Always follow the manufacturer's specifications for your vehicle. If you deviate from them, you and only you take on full responsibility for the safety of everyone on the road and in your vehicle. That is a huge responsibility and liability. Take is very seriously.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by PfadtRacing

Bring it out to Miller Motorsports Park for NASA Nationals and we'll run you in our ST1 Z06. The engine is basically stock aside from Headers, Intake and Exhaust. It would be interesting to say the least.



Have a great weekend Mike!

No need to go to Miller Our first public track event delivered the results we expected against the base Vette. Using available lap times we know the difference between a base vette and a Z06 in 2009 was 2.2 seconds at Gingerman. We beat that.



Then we saw your 5h Gen Camaro in our rear view mirror a little more than 5.5 seconds behind us at the OPTIMA challenge.

In 2010 we went back to Gingerman and took another two seconds off our laptime with the upgrade to Pedders Supercars.

in 2012 at the OPTIMA the Lingenfelter / Pedders L/28 Camaro put down the 5th Fastest Lap. The Raymond's Performance Camaro put down the 11th Fastest Lap. The nearest 5th Gen was 8 seconds behind...

Originally Posted by PfadtRacing

Unless your sway bar package was designed to get the largest possible tire under the front and rear without rubbing. I think the optimal tire size is going to be 275-295 front and 305-315 rear.

Kind regards,

Sorry. You were wrong then and are wrong now. 305/30/19s and 305/35/20s are what the Fastest Street Legal 5th Gens Run on

Looks like the only chance you boys will have to beat a Street Legal Licensed Camaro on a Road Course would be to bring a race car style Vette

You can't report this post. It is a reply to your own posts.

[Rob@WretchedMS]

[SPCBA]

Pete or Rob, do you think is it possible to get the same squareness in Forgestar Wheels CF5? Without spacers?

I am not hip to the offset stuff. When I grew up it was Cragar SS or nothing.

Thanks in advance,
Blake

[jeremywes]

[madmaxx18]

or any type of rims in a setup of 10.5 x 19 front and rear for under $2k?

[2SSRS]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Sorry. You were wrong then and are wrong now. 305/30/19s and 305/35/20s are what the Fastest Street Legal 5th Gens Run on

Looks like the only chance you boys will have to beat a Street Legal Licensed Camaro on a Road Course would be to bring a race car style Vette

You can't report this post. It is a reply to your own posts.

so you can fit 305/35/20 on the front with 10.5 rims.

I know it 3 years ago, and to show you it can be done here is a pic of the one i put on now.

[Synner]

What wheel is that and how much did they set you back? Any idea on backspacing?

[Falundir]

Pete,

In honor of your own setup I went with a slightly tamer Forgeline GA1R 19x10 on all 4 with 285/35 19 RE11 tires. Love the setup.

My question is what settings do you recommend for your coilovers when going with a square setup for daily driving, aggressive street, and autoX?

Thanks!

[sting808]

Originally Posted by 2SSRS

so you can fit 305/35/20 on the front with 10.5 rims.

I know it 3 years ago, and to show you it can be done here is a pic of the one i put on now.

Do you have a front view and something to show sidewall? I can lookup the Goodyear tire spec to see tread and overall width since brand will make a difference.

I have CCW 20x10 with Invo 275/40-20 and see some very small scuff(tire mark?) on the driver side, rear lower frame. Running -1.4* camber and 6.9* caster. Looks like it may have happened on a tight left turn. Shouldn't affect track, but may scrape on tight street driving turns. Newly installed camber plates should help with the street alignment.

Want inexpensive 10.5" 19s or 20s non-staggered setup dedicated for track(Solo2) use. Hard to find cheap custom offset wheels that are durable for racing.

[jeremywes]

Originally Posted by 2SSRS

so you can fit 305/35/20 on the front with 10.5 rims.

I know it 3 years ago, and to show you it can be done here is a pic of the one i put on now.

That is sweeeet man! What backspacing is that? I need some just like that. Are you also running a 305 on the rear?

[jeremywes]

Originally Posted by madmaxx18

or any type of rims in a setup of 10.5 x 19 front and rear for under $2k?

Same here!

[2SSRS]

Originally Posted by jeremywes

That is sweeeet man! What backspacing is that? I need some just like that. Are you also running a 305 on the rear?

That rim will fit the rear the same way, but the plan is a 335 in the rear.

[SPCBA]

Originally Posted by SPCBA

Pete or Rob, do you think is it possible to get the same squareness in Forgestar Wheels CF5? Without spacers?

I am not hip to the offset stuff. When I grew up it was Cragar SS or nothing.

Thanks in advance,
Blake

Originally Posted by madmaxx18

or any type of rims in a setup of 10.5 x 19 front and rear for under $2k?

Originally Posted by jeremywes

Same here!

Seems like the bull has abandoned this thread. Would love to have my camaro pedderized but need help with the wheels to start.

[rockrau]

I'm pretty sure the Pedders wheel specs. weather 19 X 10.5 or 20 X 10.5 are only thru Forgeline and the offsets are different front & rear.Also,the offsets are top secret.I also would like to know because I can not afford $4500 for Forgeline wheels.

[Synner]

Maybe if you went to forgestar with tires in hand they could fit it in 20x10.5 but otherwise I've had no luck in finding a cheaper alternative. Will probably get the forgelines in the fall after my deployment. Not sure I can settle on anything less than 305 or I'll be too annoyed with myself.

[rockrau]

The wife knows I have been shopping for wider wheels and tires ,but if I tell her $1800 for tires and $4500 for wheels I might get shot!!

[madmaxx18]

Way to go justice pete come on here make some big news and disappear!!!











j/k

[Rob@WretchedMS]

lol, he should be back soon,

[jeremywes]

Originally Posted by rockrau

I'm pretty sure the Pedders wheel specs. weather 19 X 10.5 or 20 X 10.5 are only thru Forgeline and the offsets are different front & rear.Also,the offsets are top secret.I also would like to know because I can not afford $4500 for Forgeline wheels.

Keeping the offset specs secret is definetly not in the spirit of this forum but I agree they must be under CIA lockdown because no one has been able or willing to share. And although I can afford the $4500 I just can't see spending that kind of money

[CyberPredator]

Originally Posted by 2SSRS

so you can fit 305/35/20 on the front with 10.5 rims.
I know it 3 years ago, and to show you it can be done here is a pic of the one i put on now.

I think they knew it then too since this thread was created 8/14/09

[2SSRS]

Originally Posted by CyberPredator

I think they knew it then too since this thread was created 8/14/09

On 19" rims, was told it cant be done on 20" rims in the size on the car.