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Old 08-14-2009, 11:11 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by dms View Post
Since the goal is to obtain a more superior handling Camaro, the test fit was done on a Xa equipped Camaro. All of our work we have done on wheels and tires is to enhance the ultimate handing Camaro. Having the same size tire front and rear is a benefit that will assist in the reduction of understeer. Adding wider tires to the rear than the fronts, increases understeer.

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Mike, I'm sold, once you let slip on wheel and tire configs, I'm in. But I'm still gonna go with 20's.

when you have time, can you educate me on why wider rears than fronts increases understeer?

I'd like to learn why this happens.

Can't wait to see the details.
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Old 08-14-2009, 11:17 PM   #27
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Unless your sway bar package was designed to get the largest possible tire under the front and rear without rubbing. I think the optimal tire size is going to be 275-295 front and 305-315 rear.

Kind regards,
We are going to have 2 multi adjustable sway bar packages available, and this is due to a serious variations we will see in the Camaro community in chasis upgrades. We will have options from guys who just want to do tires and bars, to our Track Xa system that has everything we offer. The differences in sway bar needs are quite different. The WD 40 Camaro we did we were able to get it to a neutral steering feel with just our coil overs, and radius rod bushing enhancers.

With your Corvette experience, I am sure you are aware of the setups for th GTR Vette. At the high speed track in NJ, we were able to get Pete's G8 within 1/2 second of their qualifying time there and we were running performance street tires, 275's on all 4 corners. So being able to beat a Z06 at Gingerman should be no problem. We already have the 2 drivers lined up, and are just waiting to for all the engine upgrades, wheels, and 305 tires for all 4 corners. Now a upgraded Z06 suspension, wheels and motor work is a all together different story.

Now we will have to agree to disagree on what the optimum tire combo is in a max performance basis. On our last track testing, we did try splitting the tires, and in fact the corners had more understeer with the larger tires in the back. We did not, however, have the influence of sway bars. That will occur on our next track event.

Take care.

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Old 08-14-2009, 11:54 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by GTAHVIT View Post
Mike, I'm sold, once you let slip on wheel and tire configs, I'm in. But I'm still gonna go with 20's.

when you have time, can you educate me on why wider rears than fronts increases understeer?

I'd like to learn why this happens.

Can't wait to see the details.
We have learned more about the Camaro suspension than all of our other platforms. What poeple need to do is to come up with a total goal first.
I say this because the tires you select have a very serious affect on the overall handling. We have learned this and will be eventually offering 2 different Xa packages to help fine tune the rear to complement the rear tires best as possible. Same thing will go with our sway bars. They tested out great, but we will bump them up and come up with multiple sway bar packages again to match upgrades. We have found that you can over bar the Camaro if you are doing them without upgrading srpings and dampers. What this means is you can reduce your handling, by increasing understeer by doing a front and rear sway bars without other upgrades.

So a master plan that must include a budget, should be done before wheels and tires. I spend a lot of time helping guys thru this product. So far, the really great wheels out there that I have seen so far are pretty pricy.

Hope this helps

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Old 08-15-2009, 12:02 AM   #29
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Great job Mike!
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Old 08-15-2009, 12:07 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTAHVIT View Post
Mike, I'm sold, once you let slip on wheel and tire configs, I'm in. But I'm still gonna go with 20's.

when you have time, can you educate me on why wider rears than fronts increases understeer?

I'd like to learn why this happens.

Can't wait to see the details.
Wider rears grip more than the smaller fronts so in a corner the fronts will start losing grip before the rears, hence the car starts to "push" to the outside of the turn or "understeer". If the rears start to lose grip first then the rear wants to swing around on you so it's considered to "oversteer" meaning the car wants to turn sharper than you've steered for. Understeer is when it doesn't want to steer as sharp as you're steering for.

Neutral is when it goes where you steer it without either understeering or oversteering. Neutral has the best balance and typically produces the fastest times in most cases.
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Old 08-15-2009, 01:33 AM   #31
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Less grip more slip.
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Old 08-15-2009, 03:27 AM   #32
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This is such great news!
Will you tell us which tires you're using?
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Old 08-15-2009, 11:00 AM   #33
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Sorry to ask again but... No rubbing under extreme cornering? With Race tires? Was the rim 19x10?
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Old 08-15-2009, 11:01 AM   #34
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Very cool! Feel free to shoo me off, but just wondering if you had to modify anything? I'm guessing it required your coilovers for clearance but anything else have to get tweaked?



Nope.
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Old 08-15-2009, 11:04 AM   #35
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This is such great news!
Will you tell us which tires you're using?
Bridgestone RE-11.
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Old 08-15-2009, 11:13 AM   #36
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It is important that everyone understand Pedders does not make partsfor race cars. Pedders builds bits for the enthusiast that wants 90% of track handling with about 90% of OE comfort. Becuase most street vehicles have more RWHP, BHP and weight than the largest tires that will fit in the wheel well can handle they are diving an under tired car. A Formula 1 car weigh about 1500 pounds and the rear wheel are t h i s w i d e. For a Camaro that weigh more than twice as much the rear wheels would need to be t h i s w i d e . Becuase we have so little rubber under our very fat street cars that occiasionally see the track we are under tired. That mean our coil, damping and bushing rates must be much softer or we over heat tires and get slow by working them too hard. This is why Pedders streetable (soft) urethane and daily driver comfortable coil and damping rates work well on the track.

I take our bits to the eXtreme with project cars to deomonstrate this. The Camaro will beone of our most exciting projects to date. I hope you enjoy our build as much as we are.
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Old 08-15-2009, 11:45 AM   #37
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Old 08-15-2009, 11:57 AM   #38
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Does anybody know how the speedometers are calibrated on these cars? Is it computer controlled where you can enter the revolutions per mile of a tire and it calibrates the speedometer?
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Old 08-15-2009, 12:12 PM   #39
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Yea...this question has been asked a couple times in the thread with no answer.

How's the speedo going to be calibrated for the different diameter wheels?
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Old 08-15-2009, 08:25 PM   #40
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Quote:
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Wider rears grip more than the smaller fronts so in a corner the fronts will start losing grip before the rears, hence the car starts to "push" to the outside of the turn or "understeer". If the rears start to lose grip first then the rear wants to swing around on you so it's considered to "oversteer" meaning the car wants to turn sharper than you've steered for. Understeer is when it doesn't want to steer as sharp as you're steering for.

Neutral is when it goes where you steer it without either understeering or oversteering. Neutral has the best balance and typically produces the fastest times in most cases.
Much thanks!

I Didn't understand the balanced part. as in why it matters to have the same size tires... But your explanation clears that up.

Thanks man!

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Old 08-15-2009, 08:44 PM   #41
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Bridgestone RE-11.
I've heard fantastic things about this tire. Would you care to comment briefly on how you think it compares to the stock Perellis?
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Old 08-16-2009, 02:04 AM   #42
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Hi Mike,
On my Camaro, I want to follow you guys and drop wheel/tire size down to (Probably - 19" wheels with 305/30ZR19 all the way around) for track tires. I am going to hold off until Pedders finishes development on the track suspension and put that whole KIT on my Camaro over the winter when the kit is ready. My Goal is to make this car handle as best I can for use in SCCA SOLOII and select road racing events - still keeping it street legal - hopefully with the 20" RS/SS stock tire/wheel combination for the street.

I will swap the race tires with the street tires and vice-versa depending where I want to drive (hopefully I can do this - the wheel sensors and TPMS, I assume, will need to be re-calibrated) when switching tire/wheel sets.

I was able to do this Tire/rim swap method with My 2005 corvette. One set of mounted tires for track, one set mounted for street. (all were 19" and the track tires were close to the street sizes).

Any Idea if I can do this effectively?

I also have a couple of questions for you RE: camber plates and pillow ball bearings for the camaro. Are these going to be able to be built for the camaro? Will they be part of the track Kit once done?
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Old 08-16-2009, 03:22 AM   #43
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Hi Mike,
On my Camaro, I want to follow you guys and drop wheel/tire size down to (Probably - 19" wheels with 305/30ZR19 all the way around) for track tires. I am going to hold off until Pedders finishes development on the track suspension and put that whole KIT on my Camaro over the winter when the kit is ready. My Goal is to make this car handle as best I can for use in SCCA SOLOII and select road racing events - still keeping it street legal - hopefully with the 20" RS/SS stock tire/wheel combination for the street.

I will swap the race tires with the street tires and vice-versa depending where I want to drive (hopefully I can do this - the wheel sensors and TPMS, I assume, will need to be re-calibrated) when switching tire/wheel sets.

I was able to do this Tire/rim swap method with My 2005 corvette. One set of mounted tires for track, one set mounted for street. (all were 19" and the track tires were close to the street sizes).

Any Idea if I can do this effectively?

I also have a couple of questions for you RE: camber plates and pillow ball bearings for the camaro. Are these going to be able to be built for the camaro? Will they be part of the track Kit once done?
One of the other things that we are doing is to put a 3.45 gear in the back end as well.

mike
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Old 08-16-2009, 04:18 PM   #44
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Because I like this thread.....
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Old 08-17-2009, 09:29 AM   #45
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I want to see this beast, especially with 305's all around. That would look sweet and if it handles half as good as it sounds, this will make for a fun Camaro!
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Old 08-17-2009, 10:55 AM   #46
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One of the other things that we are doing is to put a 3.45 gear in the back end as well.

mike
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Mike,

Is this a typo? Isn't the stock gear in a SS manual 3.45? I spoke with Ron at Vengeance Racing, one of your vendors, and he told me that there will be a gear swap available in a couple of months, but it will involve swapping the differential at a cost of over $2000.

I am waiting for my wheel purchase until I see the results of your build. Right now your company is the only one recommending the 19" setup. Neither Pfadt or Detroit Speed has given that recommendation.

I am not a suspension expert and I can see some logic to both arguments. But it is confusing to me. I do like the idea of being able to rotate the tires, especially with how expensive they are.

My Camaro will not see the track for now. It will be my daily driver. I do drive very aggressively and would like this thing to handle as well as possible. I am considering your Street II kit with swaybars or your track extreme kit. What would you recommend?
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Old 08-17-2009, 11:23 AM   #47
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^^same here in terms of usage and request.

In the past usually I'd start with coilovers, and then work my way out to extra stuff where need be...like the sway bars, bushings, etc.

I like starting with coilovers because sometimes the higher spring rates and good tuning on the units can eliminate alot of problems. For example, I was going to put sways on my EVO, but didn't need to once I got the coilovers on it.
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Old 08-17-2009, 11:57 AM   #48
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Yea...this question has been asked a couple times in the thread with no answer.

How's the speedo going to be calibrated for the different diameter wheels?
HP software while tuning at Backstreet.
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Old 08-17-2009, 12:01 PM   #49
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One of the other things that we are doing is to put a 3.45 gear in the back end as well.

mike
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We move really fast at Pedders and failed to inform Mike about scrapping the gear change some time ago as we engineered the build. On the other hand we probably did and Mike had turned his deaf ear to me. That is OK as I turn my deaf ear to Mike. Yeah, seriously we are both deaf in one ear. My AU partner is blind in one eye. Together we have one really good head.
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Old 08-17-2009, 03:36 PM   #50
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Physically challenged is ok Pete. As long as you don't start claiming a loss of brain cells from,"a great life experience" in the 60's on that month long search for yourself. lol
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