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Old 08-18-2009, 01:31 PM   #69
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I hear that a lot. Make no mistake about it, I do have fun at Pedders. There are days just like any other business that make you want to pull your hair out, but I love what I do. I can also assure you that no retail customer will ever come close to paying what I pay for a suspension. My cost is literally 100s of times higher than your cost at full retail because we have to develop all the bits. Each vehicle platform we support takes big bucks to get started. Obviously we wouldn't do it if we didn't feel we could make a profit at it. This year we invested more money than I care to think about in new product development. That is the bad news. The good news i that the Camaro project i doing very well at retail and is just about 100% complete from an R & D perspective. We'll nail down the final sway bar diameters shortly as finish our testing with the new tire and wheel package.
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Old 08-18-2009, 01:36 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
I hear that a lot. Make no mistake about it, I do have fun at Pedders. There are days just like any other business that make you want to pull your hair out, but I love what I do. I can also assure you that no retail customer will ever come close to paying what I pay for a suspension. My cost is literally 100s of times higher than your cost at full retail because we have to develop all the bits. Each vehicle platform we support takes big bucks to get started. Obviously we wouldn't do it if we didn't feel we could make a profit at it. This year we invested more money than I care to think about in new product development. That is the bad news. The good news i that the Camaro project i doing very well at retail and is just about 100% complete from an R & D perspective. We'll nail down the final sway bar diameters shortly as finish our testing with the new tire and wheel package.

I know Im only one customer but yall will have my buisness.... Now we just need to figure out if its going to be work on a SS or on a "special" camaro that hasnt been anounced yet......
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Old 08-18-2009, 01:39 PM   #71
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I know Im only one customer but yall will have my buisness.... Now we just need to figure out if its going to be work on a SS or on a "special" camaro that hasnt been anounced yet......
+1
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Old 08-18-2009, 01:41 PM   #72
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+1
Some how I knew you would agree.......
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Old 08-18-2009, 01:43 PM   #73
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Please tell me you will give us the wheel dimensions at some point?

Puleeeeeeeezzzz
Absolutely.
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Old 08-18-2009, 01:55 PM   #74
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Absolutely.
You guys are the best! And FWIW, I will be a customer.
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Old 08-18-2009, 03:11 PM   #75
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You guys are the best! And FWIW, I will be a customer.
Me Too! Hey pete - Get out there and finish testing your EXPENSIVE suspension setup so I (and others) can help defer your costs by buying the extreme Track Kit. you gotta finish it so I can buy it...
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Old 08-18-2009, 04:31 PM   #76
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What were we talking about in this thread... Bridgestone RE11 305/30 on 10.5 x 19 Forgeline ZX3 light weight racing wheels.





Are you not concerned of the tire's load index number, For this tire compered to OEM, 98 for this tire and 106 for OEM.
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Old 08-18-2009, 04:47 PM   #77
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Are you not concerned of the tire's load index number, For this tire compared to OEM, 98 for this tire and 106 for OEM.
You raised a very good question and deserve a good answer. Normally I would be very concerned with a lower load rating, but the Camaro is an exception. The OEM tires and wheels are HUGE with a load rating similar to an SUV and not a car. No tire company will approve a fitments with a load rating lower than OEM for a number of reasons. That doesn't make them right.

The OEM Load Rating Totals 8,376 pounds.
The Re-11 Load Rating Totals 6,612 pounds.

I cannot say that GM is wrong to have a truck like load rating for the tires nor would I say that Bridgestone is wrong in calling this a non-conforming application. I can say, that in my opinion a total load of 6,612 pounds is more than I will need in this particular vehicle. Many of the things we do at Pedders are done on customer vehicles. Pedders is no different than Bridgestone and GM so we call this a non-conforming application as well.

Last edited by JusticePete; 08-18-2009 at 05:26 PM. Reason: Longer Answer
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Old 08-18-2009, 11:00 PM   #78
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Pete thank you for the answer it makes sens to me. If you can what do you think the lowest load index number tire we can go with is for a Daley driver is and for the track.
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Old 08-19-2009, 11:55 AM   #79
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Pete thank you for the answer it makes sens to me. If you can what do you think the lowest load index number tire we can go with is for a Daley driver is and for the track.
This is my PERSONAL OPINION and not a recommendation from Pedders, Bridgestone or GM. A general rule of thumb would be that the tires should be capable of holding the vehicle weight plus 50% for a passenger vehicle.

Camaro 4,000
Additional Load at 50% 2,000
Tire Load Rating 6,000 as a minimum

Once again, this is just my opinion. It is a common sense approach and not the recommendation of any of these companies. The Camaro in this thread is my personal vehicle and not owned by Pedders. You should always follow the manufacture recommended tire and wheel fitments.

Speaking as a car guy and not for any company or with any inside information, GM selected the tire and wheel packages for the Camaro based on heavy influence from the design team. The OEM tires and wheel fill the huge wheel arches and look great. There is no question about it -- the Camaro looks great. That said they are rather large. These large wheels and tires provide benefits:
  • They are very smooth over bumps and pot holes.
  • They put down the power efficiently.
  • They look great.

There are negatives;
  • They are heavy.
  • They require a lot of breaking power.
  • They feel like they take forever to get moving.
  • They limit tire selection.

It is my opinion that the style drove the Tire Load Rating for the Camaro and not an engineering parameter that generated a potential 4 TON load for a four seat passenger vehicle.

The Pedders USA Camaro has a mission. We intend to break the performance ranges of a C6 Corvette for LESS than price of a Corvette and do it with space for four people. We need to get more rubber on the ground, especially up front to do this. We need to improve braking without spending money for six pot brakes. We need more power with a goal of 600 RWHP on a budget. We need more alignment adjustment range to improve turn in and tracking. We need to get the car over 1G on the skid pad and on the track in real turns at speed.

To do all this we will bend a few rules. In bending these rules we do not want to compromise safety. No one I have discussed this with had any concern over safety with my tire selection. Everyone I spoke with did raise the issue of being below the manufacture recommended Tire Load Rating -- in my opinion -- solely for CYA reasons. Is the tire safe? Off the record the answer was unanimously yes. On the record, no one said it was not safe. They all said it was below the MFG spec and a non-compliant application.

We will follow our own judgment when our goals conflict with a rule. Having said that, my family rides in this vehicle so my personal measure of safety for my family trumps everything else. In the end, it is incumbent on me to make the final decision for this project and to make certain that the vehicle is safe for my family and for my professional drivers on the track. In doing so the liability becomes 100% mine.

Why I am I writing all of this? To make certain you all understand that the mfg has made decisions that involve vehicle safety and you should ALWAYS follow them. That I have bent or broken the rules does not make me right. My professional recommendation is no different than all the advice I received. Always follow the manufacturer's specifications for your vehicle. If you deviate from them, you and only you take on full responsibility for the safety of everyone on the road and in your vehicle. That is a huge responsibility and liability. Take is very seriously.
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Old 08-19-2009, 01:38 PM   #80
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Thanks it helps me out on deciding on tires for my 335 tires as there is not a lot of 20" tires, As i have said this car will run on 335 rears and now 305 up front as soon as you tell us the off set for the front rims from Forgeline.
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Old 08-19-2009, 01:45 PM   #81
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Nice write up pete.

Thanks,
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Old 08-19-2009, 01:45 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
This is my PERSONAL OPINION and not a recommendation from Pedders, Bridgestone or GM. A general rule of thumb would be that the tires should be capable of holding the vehicle weight plus 50% for a passenger vehicle.

Camaro 4,000
Additional Load at 50% 2,000
Tire Load Rating 6,000 as a minimum

Once again, this is just my opinion. It is a common sense approach and not the recommendation of any of these companies. The Camaro in this thread is my personal vehicle and not owned by Pedders. You should always follow the manufacture recommended tire and wheel fitments.

Speaking as a car guy and not for any company or with any inside information, GM selected the tire and wheel packages for the Camaro based on heavy influence from the design team. The OEM tires and wheel fill the huge wheel arches and look great. There is no question about it -- the Camaro looks great. That said they are rather large. These large wheels and tires provide benefits:
  • They are very smooth over bumps and pot holes.
  • They put down the power efficiently.
  • They look great.

There are negatives;
  • They are heavy.
  • They require a lot of breaking power.
  • They feel like they take forever to get moving.
  • They limit tire selection.

It is my opinion that the style drove the Tire Load Rating for the Camaro and not an engineering parameter that generated a potential 4 TON load for a four seat passenger vehicle.

The Pedders USA Camaro has a mission. We intend to break the performance ranges of a C6 Corvette for LESS than price of a Corvette and do it with space for four people. We need to get more rubber on the ground, especially up front to do this. We need to improve braking without spending money for six pot brakes. We need more power with a goal of 600 RWHP on a budget. We need more alignment adjustment range to improve turn in and tracking. We need to get the car over 1G on the skid pad and on the track in real turns at speed.

To do all this we will bend a few rules. In bending these rules we do not want to compromise safety. No one I have discussed this with had any concern over safety with my tire selection. Everyone I spoke with did raise the issue of being below the manufacture recommended Tire Load Rating -- in my opinion -- solely for CYA reasons. Is the tire safe? Off the record the answer was unanimously yes. On the record, no one said it was not safe. They all said it was below the MFG spec and a non-compliant application.

We will follow our own judgment when our goals conflict with a rule. Having said that, my family rides in this vehicle so my personal measure of safety for my family trumps everything else. In the end, it is incumbent on me to make the final decision for this project and to make certain that the vehicle is safe for my family and for my professional drivers on the track. In doing so the liability becomes 100% mine.

Why I am I writing all of this? To make certain you all understand that the mfg has made decisions that involve vehicle safety and you should ALWAYS follow them. That I have bent or broken the rules does not make me right. My professional recommendation is no different than all the advice I received. Always follow the manufacturer's specifications for your vehicle. If you deviate from them, you and only you take on full responsibility for the safety of everyone on the road and in your vehicle. That is a huge responsibility and liability. Take is very seriously.
Nice CYA...very good boys and girls. hehehe

Having said all that, and I quite agree, the factory load rating is based on the factory vehicle weight. If a person is modding their car and doing weight reduction, that affects the load rating downward which is favorable. The factory rating is in essence a doubling of the vehicle weight. Standard vehicle weight is 3860; add 200 lbs for driver and you're at 4060. Double that and you have 8160 which is pretty close to what they chose as a load rating. I think they went slightly over simply because of what was available commercially for tires.

If you start reducing vehicle weight through mods and can reduce it to say... 3700 lbs, add 200 for the driver and you're at 3900 so then double that which would be 7800. Divide that by 4 you get 1950 lbs per tire to maintain the factory ratio of double the vehicle weight. I think double is a little excessive myself; this isn't an SUV where I might be hauling 1000 lbs in passengers, a full load of bricks in the back and 8 sheets of drywall roped to the top.

However you MAY be driving fast and cornering fast which causes load shift so you can't ignore tire load ratings either. GM rates everything conservatively so like their engines which are rated at 426 but can easily go higher without problems, I think it's safe to figure tire load rating was conservatively calculated too. I agree 50% above the gross driving weight (with driver) is the minimum and to be sure just go 60% or higher if anyone is concerned. Your tire's load ratings are about 63% above the factory weight of 3860 (+200 for driver); since I'm certain your car weighs less than that, it's all good.

For anyone who has not reduced weight but wants to change wheels and tires, as long as the load rating of the tire is 1624 lbs which gives a total rating of 1.6x the weight of 4060 lbs (3860 + 200), you should be just fine. Anything higher than that of course is even better.

That said, as has been stated by others YOU TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for your actions if and when you modify your car. If you are not sure or are concerned about a mod, then DON'T DO IT, regardless of what anyone says here or anywhere. If you're worried about it, DON'T DO IT. IF YOU DECIDE to modify anything on your car, don't blame anyone if something you do to it breaks something or causes you problems. The only time that doesn't apply is if something you purchased was faulty of course or "not as advertised" but as a general rule whatever mods you do, you do at your own risk; just so you know. As long as you understand and are cool with that, modding can be a lot of fun and very rewarding.
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Old 08-19-2009, 01:51 PM   #83
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Great post.
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Old 08-20-2009, 10:07 AM   #84
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Pete,

Any updates on this wheel package? I am eager to see them on a Camaro with a Pedders' suspension. ADM posted some pictures of 19" wheels, but I don't think they are the same thing as what you are designing.

If we chose to stay with 20s, but still wanted the widest, non staggered wheel that would fit with your coil overs and sway bar set up, what would you recommend?
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Old 08-20-2009, 10:56 AM   #85
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I'm pretty sure I'm going with 19's and probably a 275/35-19 tire but I'm trying to find a tuner shop who can recalibrate the speedo; just need someone in Southern Calif. that can plug into the computer and input the revolutions per mile of the new tire size.
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