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Old 08-16-2009, 05:26 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Chocolate Apocalypse View Post
You dont want LTs, shorties are fine but not LTs. You'll be killing some power and you'll just go back to stock manifolds or shorties anyway.
That is all based on the complete setup you have...depending on the turbo, the boost you are looking for, the diameter of the pipe....you can run LTs and it will work fine...just have to make sure you match everything properly.
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Old 08-16-2009, 05:29 PM   #77
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That is all based on the complete setup you have...depending on the turbo, the boost you are looking for, the diameter of the pipe....you can run LTs and it will work fine...just have to make sure you match everything properly.
Uhh, no. LTs are not the way to go with a rear mount turbo, no how, no way. Anyone who is thinking about going rear mount should really read through this, lots of good info:
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/forced...urbo-saga.html
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Old 08-16-2009, 05:40 PM   #78
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Anyone who disputes the idea needs to know simply this, PRESSURE IS PRESSURE!

If you pressurize a tube 2 inches long versus 24 inches long it doesn't matter.


I have never owned a FI engine so I am no expert and you are free to call bullshit on my method of thinking if I am completely wrong, but...

"PRESSURE IS PRESSURE", that is true, but when talking turbo lag you are talking how quickly pressure is build up and that is a different story.

"If you pressurize a tube 2 inches long versus 24 inches long it doesn't matter.", that is true for fluids which are "non-compressable" but when talking about air which is compressable please consider that volume matters and a longer tube equals more volume.

At the end of the longer pipe is the turbo which is a restrictor (however marginal), therefore when pressing the throtle you will have the engine moving more exhaust air into the pipe towards the turbo.
Yes the turbo will start to spool faster instantly BUT since the turbo is a resrictor, the pressure in the longer tube in front of the turbo will build up and the extra volume of the pipe will require more energy and time to get to the full pressure the engine can generate and therefore the turbo to spool at the maximum RPM with that maximum pressure from the engine.

Something similar could be said for the extra length pipe back to the intake manifold since the engine is a restrictor too (hence the neccesity of a waste gate).

Now, whether the extra "turbo lag" from the longer tubes (both ways) creates noticable differences I will let someone else proof.
All other components kept the same, negatives of remote mount are probably offset by higher temperatures and need for intercooling when using under the hood turbo systems.
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Old 08-16-2009, 05:44 PM   #79
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Old 08-16-2009, 07:10 PM   #80
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STS is a sound setup. The heat that turbo's can generate under hood is negated by the fact they are in the rear. I know a few Mustang guys running them, and they make good power and times on the single system.

The one thing I fault is that if you live in a rainy area...IE Florida.....Well...just do not drive thru any big puddles...
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Old 08-16-2009, 07:15 PM   #81
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rear mount turbos, that will suck when they start on fire
huh?
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Old 08-16-2009, 07:22 PM   #82
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1320junkie are you thinking what im thinking? Turbos catch on fire? there away from the engine there even cooler making them even less likely. Ive never even heard of that happening. Am i wrong please tell me!
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Old 08-16-2009, 09:50 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dinky Toy View Post
I have never owned a FI engine so I am no expert and you are free to call bullshit on my method of thinking if I am completely wrong, but...

"PRESSURE IS PRESSURE", that is true, but when talking turbo lag you are talking how quickly pressure is build up and that is a different story.

"If you pressurize a tube 2 inches long versus 24 inches long it doesn't matter.", that is true for fluids which are "non-compressable" but when talking about air which is compressable please consider that volume matters and a longer tube equals more volume.

At the end of the longer pipe is the turbo which is a restrictor (however marginal), therefore when pressing the throtle you will have the engine moving more exhaust air into the pipe towards the turbo.
Yes the turbo will start to spool faster instantly BUT since the turbo is a resrictor, the pressure in the longer tube in front of the turbo will build up and the extra volume of the pipe will require more energy and time to get to the full pressure the engine can generate and therefore the turbo to spool at the maximum RPM with that maximum pressure from the engine.

Something similar could be said for the extra length pipe back to the intake manifold since the engine is a restrictor too (hence the neccesity of a waste gate).

Now, whether the extra "turbo lag" from the longer tubes (both ways) creates noticable differences I will let someone else proof.
All other components kept the same, negatives of remote mount are probably offset by higher temperatures and need for intercooling when using under the hood turbo systems.

It is a very valid point. Volume is most definately a factor when properly setting up a remote mount system. A lot of time goes into selecting the tubing sizes and turbo sizes. You have to take into account velocity of exhaust and the velocity of air from the turbos. Then there are the temperatures of the air returning to the intake and so on. I can assure you that when Rick (sts turbo systems) engineers a system he does all the math for it before just throwing it on a car.
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Old 08-16-2009, 09:51 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by kunkelz28 View Post
rear mount turbos, that will suck when they start on fire
If your turbos are on fire does it really matter where they're located?
I mean... it seems like kind of a big deal regardless.

/sarcasm
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Old 08-17-2009, 12:25 AM   #85
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It is a very valid point. Volume is most definately a factor when properly setting up a remote mount system. A lot of time goes into selecting the tubing sizes and turbo sizes. You have to take into account velocity of exhaust and the velocity of air from the turbos. Then there are the temperatures of the air returning to the intake and so on. I can assure you that when Rick (sts turbo systems) engineers a system he does all the math for it before just throwing it on a car.

Thanks east TX Muscle cars for not burning me to a pityfull pile of ashes.

I completely agree that with proper engineering any disadvantages from remote mounting can be overcome and find it assuring to hear that STS does exactly do that.

I only respond when I have something useful to say, something absolutely new to tell or a very personal (and positive) comment to make.
As English is a second language for me, I choose my wording very carefully and cross my T's and dot my I's.

Didn't mean to bash on you but I hold vendors to a higher level of knowledge and as such I felt compelled to respond to that previous statement.

And yes, I always cringe when I see forum members or guests bash needlessly on vendors/products (whom provide us choices and competition) based solely on personal opinion, often unfounded and without personal experience.
If you have nothing positive OR usefull to say, please don't say anything.
Saves me from reading a lot of non-informative posts.

We are still friends I trust, my fellow TX's member...?

Last edited by Dinky Toy; 08-17-2009 at 12:37 AM.
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Old 08-17-2009, 12:26 AM   #86
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Oops, Comcast crapped out and I rammed the "Save" button as often and quickly as I could.

Double post therefore edited.

Last edited by Dinky Toy; 08-17-2009 at 12:40 AM.
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Old 08-17-2009, 09:20 AM   #87
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this my be the stupidest thing ever said but whats to keep a person from mounting two turbos on the exhaust and two under the hood? is there any advantage to that?
It's proven to be a waste mounting them like STS does in the rear. They make great kits but Toyota Supra's, Nissan Skyline's, WRX STi's, Lancer Evo's, Nissan (240) Silvia S-15's and other top notch Turbo cars don't do it all for the same reason. Twin turbo kits are over-rated, single kits are better and more reliable. If they werent twin turbo cars wouldn't switch to single kits to make big power
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Old 08-17-2009, 11:14 AM   #88
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I don't think anyone is saying you can't make more power with a normal front mounted turbo. Some places like California, though, don't allow you to mess with the exhaust in front of the cats, so STS is really your only turbo option until somebody gets a kit approved.

Sure, you lose a lot of energy from the exhaust by putting it in the back, but a properly sized turbo can make up for that. I will be interested to see the track times for this kit. That will tell the true tale to me.

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Old 08-17-2009, 11:18 AM   #89
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It's proven to be a waste mounting them like STS does in the rear. They make great kits but Toyota Supra's, Nissan Skyline's, WRX STi's, Lancer Evo's, Nissan (240) Silvia S-15's and other top notch Turbo cars don't do it all for the same reason. Twin turbo kits are over-rated, single kits are better and more reliable. If they werent twin turbo cars wouldn't switch to single kits to make big power
A waste is a matter of opinion. Smaller dual turbos will spool faster but not allow real high boost. It really depends on what your goal for the vehicle is. For a road coarse car I would want a smaller twin turbo system that makes power throughout the RPM range and lower power levels. If I want an all out drag car a single large turbo that makes huge power in the upper RPM range would be better.

This is exactly why when a customer calls us we need to know what your goals are before just telling you what to go with. It is very short sided to just go for the most power all the time.
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Old 08-18-2009, 03:04 PM   #90
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1 foot of water is not that uncommon here in Houston in a big rainstorm. Happens more often than you might think.
why are you driving a 4th gen around in a foot of water? even with a stock intake on the car, youd still be running the risk of hydrolock.


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Yeah we live on top of a huge swamp
we get nasty rains here in charleston as well, and I leave the car at home when the rain gets deep




Quote:
Originally Posted by east TX Muscle cars View Post
A waste is a matter of opinion. Smaller dual turbos will spool faster but not allow real high boost. It really depends on what your goal for the vehicle is. For a road coarse car I would want a smaller twin turbo system that makes power throughout the RPM range and lower power levels. If I want an all out drag car a single large turbo that makes huge power in the upper RPM range would be better.

This is exactly why when a customer calls us we need to know what your goals are before just telling you what to go with. It is very short sided to just go for the most power all the time.

if I want an all out drag car... dual large turbos would be better.
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Old 08-19-2009, 11:57 AM   #91
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You guys are some of the worst "Car Guy's" I have ever come across. Most seem to know nothing about power adders and a few are darn right stupid. This remote kit, in one form or another has been available for almost 20 years, through an assortment of vendors. These kits were originally installed on higher priced cars, were the owners wanted a very clean and professional looking job, nothing to devalue the price of their expensive cars. Yes, you are most use to seeing hack jobs, where others cram the Turbo's into the hood area, which might seem normal and maybe tough looking. But, the fact is most under-hood turbo installs turn into a lifelong series of troubles. The excessive heat produced by the added and exposed exhaust system and related pieces takes it's tool on surrounding components and they eventually fail. Wiring melts, sensors get out of calibration and under hood temps eventually over-come any real gains. Turbo technology has come a very long way in the last several years. We now have the materials to make turbo charging a very effective and viable means to increase the performance and efficiency of the modern engine. That long route to the back of the car, can easily be over-come with the proper selection of turbines, housings and routing. In a conventional installation, the front mounted Turbo's, route the air forward to the front mounted coolers, then back to the engine. when all is said and done, there isn't that much difference between the length of the intake tubing between a front or rear mounted turbo installation. There is however a difference, between the supply side or hot side turbine distance, which can easily be overcome with the right selection of parts. In the end, the neater looking, cooler, stock appearing engine compartment is better off with the rear-mounted turbo installation. As for the water concerns, there are obvious limitations. You can see that the intake air filters for the system are mounted to collect air from the top of the rear fender wells, you would have to drive through water deep enough to enter the bottom of the car doors before it could enter the air system. If you're really that stupid, to drive your new Camaro through that deep of water, with a new rear mounted, twin turbo system, then perhaps you really don't deserve a car like that? Just a thought… Again, most front mounted twin turbo systems have their air intake systems mounted much lower, with the air filter mounted to the front of each front tire, and below the floor pan......much lower then up in the rear fender well!
I think too many times when one say's there negative comments, like Turbo's belong on V-6's, or Turbo's are stupid or they will have killer lag....What they are really trying to say is " I don't have one or the money to purchase one, so therefore those that do have the means and the cars with the parts, are stupid" or " if I had one it would be the best thing since sliced bread, but because I don't, it's no good" What a lame way to go through life.
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Old 08-19-2009, 12:15 PM   #92
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Old 08-19-2009, 01:24 PM   #93
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I installed a STS twin kit on my 07 Mustang last year. The install took me about 8 hours. That was one of the reasons that I went with the STS, because there wasn't that much work in the engine bay. And also because STS was a couple of hours from me. The car is basically a stock 4.6 running 9psi of boost. There definately isn't the instant torque, but from about 3500rpms on in each gear, it pulls hard. Don't really having anything to compare lag to, but it starts building boost around 2700 and tops out about 3500. I just wrapped the exhaust last night hoping to lower the starting point.

I live at 5200 elevation, so the car runs a little slower than a lot of the lower elevation cars. Just started taking it to the track a few months ago. I have about 15 passes on the car and myself. I'm trying to figure out how to launch the car it. We also installed a 2 step last week. I'm able to get about 5psi from the Neutral rev. Looking to try that out this weekend. My best so far at the track is 13.20 at 112 mphs (crappy driving).

I guess with all of the rambling having the rear mounts do have their place. The install and maint is fairly easy. The customer service has been great and the price was reasonable too...
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Old 08-20-2009, 12:13 AM   #94
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East Texas Motorsports had an AWESOME GTO with the STS setup. Came very close to buying it when it was put on the market. I'm sorry, but anything that you can do to get 1000+ H.P, is freeking cool!

Several GTO guys swear by their STS kits, I was seriously considering getting one until the wife said no more mods to the Camaro until she gets her new swimming pool.

Next winter, watch out! There WILL BE at least one IOM 2SS/RS M6 running the streets of SoCal with an STS kit!
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Old 08-20-2009, 12:23 AM   #95
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great post y-knnot, and thanks for posting up your experience with them pqtiii.
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Old 08-20-2009, 12:35 AM   #96
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Y-knot.. Thats some pretty good info there, however, coming on here with your 1 post and bashing the guys on the forum about how stupid we are isn't cool.
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Old 08-20-2009, 03:37 AM   #97
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Y-knot.. Thats some pretty good info there, however, coming on here with your 1 post and bashing the guys on the forum about how stupid we are isn't cool.
i don't mind being called stupid, but is it too hard to avoid the dreaded wall of text with a few paragraphs throughout?

back on topic with the thread... i like the sts set-up, it's just one more option for people to choose from. i hope the team at sts can get us some vids of the car in action soon.
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Old 08-20-2009, 03:02 PM   #98
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i don't mind being called stupid, but is it too hard to avoid the dreaded wall of text with a few paragraphs throughout?

back on topic with the thread... i like the sts set-up, it's just one more option for people to choose from. i hope the team at sts can get us some vids of the car in action soon.
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Old 08-20-2009, 03:10 PM   #99
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Well now.... Hopefully the next post won't be quite so "abrasive".



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Old 08-20-2009, 07:38 PM   #100
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