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Old 04-12-2008, 02:32 AM   #1
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Smile IF THEY BUILD THEM WILL YOU BUY THEM?

Can there be any question that the current horsepower war is about to come crashing to an end?

Of course, it's not over until it's over.

When the Camaro comes out later this year, I've got to believe Chevy will do everything in its power to top the 425 hp available in the Challenger's 6.1 L HEMI.

And then the Mustang will need something to top that.

And then Dodge has a +500 hp 6.4 L version of the HEMI in the works to trump whatever they do.

Don't they see what's about to happen?

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Old 04-12-2008, 04:33 AM   #2
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Oh, it'll happen. And, GM won't let anyone else win that horsepower war...
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Old 04-12-2008, 05:43 AM   #3
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Oh, it'll happen. And, GM won't let anyone else win that horsepower war...
i think that too.... so the question is what is going to go into the 2011 camaros? i'm not saying the 2010 will not be impressive. but the next year will be sick. because everyone else will have there answer to the camaro by then. that is when i think they are really going to Destroy the competition.
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Old 04-12-2008, 09:06 AM   #4
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oh yes, it's going 2 happen just like it did between 67-71. then the emissions control struck. history repeats itself. except now, the ricers are in on it 2! w/ the nissan gtr, i bet mitsubishi might bring back the 3000 gt, and toyota might break out the supra, and honda...well, they'll just make a lawn mower
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Old 04-12-2008, 09:25 AM   #5
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I say the more the merrier. They'll just keep getting more powerful and have to stay affordable. And with the GM GenV motors on the way.... I'm thinking GM is in a pretty good spot right now.
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Old 04-12-2008, 09:38 AM   #6
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But here's my question: would you buy an emasculated version of a "muscle" car with a four-banger? Or one with batteries and electric motors? Or a fuel cell? Or does the industry need a new definition as to what constitutes muscle?

There is no way in hell in my lifetime that a change in the definition to what American Muscle Car stands for should ever occur. No public school Inconvenient Truth/Al Gore green friendly indoctrination class should ever put the word muscle car and hybrid/4cylinder in the same page.. The V6 Camaro might be faster than a 1998 Mustang GT, however in my book, simply because it has a V6 engine that pales in comparison to the V8 in the same technological year, you can't call the lesser model a Muscle car just because it looks like one. A changing of the definition should never happen and a marketing campaign trying to change the definition.. (New Slogan= Redefining what you call American Muscle) We are already getting that from Fbodfather in snipets (forget all you know about engine's).. cozzying us up for a change, probably because of environmental standards and so forth.. I think now I am going to wait for the 2010 SRT8 with the 7.0 Liter 600HP engine in it. This article has those numbers wrong as it has been confirmed or leaked that the new Hemi will be 7.0 liters and offer over 600HP. In either case, that puts it in a whole other category.
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Old 04-12-2008, 09:48 AM   #7
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The trick for those of us that would have bought a ZL1 Camaro in 1969 but weren't alive or didn't have the means then, is to take the gamble on wich will be the "sickest" 5th gen and try to get our hands on one.

I think swazworth nailed it, 2011 will 1up 2010! And 2012? 45th Anniversary? CAFE? So many factors to consider. When will it peak and will we be able to time the purchase right or will we be searching the used car market to find the most wicked Camaro ever to come from GM with a warranty!?

Personnaly, I'm considering leasing one of the early v8 Camaros just so I can have something cool to drive while saving my down payment for something special to come later...
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Old 04-12-2008, 10:20 AM   #8
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There is no way in hell in my lifetime that a change in the definition to what American Muscle Car stands for should ever occur. No public school Inconvenient Truth/Al Gore green friendly indoctrination class should ever put the word muscle car and hybrid/4cylinder in the same page.. The V6 Camaro might be faster than a 1998 Mustang GT, however in my book, simply because it has a V6 engine that pales in comparison to the V8 in the same technological year, you can't call the lesser model a Muscle car just because it looks like one. A changing of the definition should never happen and a marketing campaign trying to change the definition.. (New Slogan= Redefining what you call American Muscle) We are already getting that from Fbodfather in snipets (forget all you know about engine's).. cozzying us up for a change, probably because of environmental standards and so forth.. I think now I am going to wait for the 2010 SRT8 with the 7.0 Liter 600HP engine in it. This article has those numbers wrong as it has been confirmed or leaked that the new Hemi will be 7.0 liters and offer over 600HP. In either case, that puts it in a whole other category.
Agree on the Indoctrination/Al Gore/Global warming Hoax stuff and it makes me sick. (Just saying I agree to those out there who believe in it, I Don't want a Thread Hijack)

I don't think though that Fbodfather ment THAT when he said "forget what you know." Things such as the AFM LS3 in the GXP were not around then. Still not around technically cause that car isn't even out yet. I kinda think that is more along the lines of what he ment though. Just imo....
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Old 04-12-2008, 11:56 AM   #9
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Actually there doesn't have to be a big horsepower war. Ford is way behind. Dodge's car is so heavy, you have to get the $37,000 version to keep up with what will be the $25,000-30,000 "regular" V8 Camaro.
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Old 04-12-2008, 01:38 PM   #10
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toyota might break out the supra
I keep hearing that too
http://www.2008toyotasupra.net/
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Old 04-12-2008, 02:34 PM   #11
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I think the HP war is over. Or at least it will be in a few years. There comes a point where adding components to increase power (i.e. larger engines, superchargers, etc) also increases weight to the point of diminishing returns.

I see a performance war coming. One that GM isn't going to sit back and watch. With electric cars (meaning instant, massive torque) on the horizon, and next-gen IC engines with E85, and biodiesel, I can see cars getting lighter, engines getting smaller (not V8 turns into a V6, but BIG V8 turns into a medium V8, like a 305), and general accel, and handling increasing.

So...am I afraid our sports cars will experience a repeat of the 70's, and 80's? Um, No. Whatever you may be told, this is a different time, we're not going to get half-baked cars that are shells af what they once were.

We may yet have another HP war in the future, one that will be between Biofuel engines, and electric motors...but this one is coming to a close, imho.
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Old 04-12-2008, 02:35 PM   #12
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If they built it, I will buy it.

500hp +
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Old 04-13-2008, 09:12 AM   #13
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I think the HP war is over. Or at least it will be in a few years. There comes a point where adding components to increase power (i.e. larger engines, superchargers, etc) also increases weight to the point of diminishing returns.

I see a performance war coming. One that GM isn't going to sit back and watch. With electric cars (meaning instant, massive torque) on the horizon, and next-gen IC engines with E85, and biodiesel, I can see cars getting lighter, engines getting smaller (not V8 turns into a V6, but BIG V8 turns into a medium V8, like a 305), and general accel, and handling increasing.

So...am I afraid our sports cars will experience a repeat of the 70's, and 80's? Um, No. Whatever you may be told, this is a different time, we're not going to get half-baked cars that are shells af what they once were.

We may yet have another HP war in the future, one that will be between Biofuel engines, and electric motors...but this one is coming to a close, imho.
You're being realistic and pessimistic at the same time here. I don't believe the HP war will ever be over, but perhaps the era of adding liters to increase power are over since we are at a point of diminishing returns already and gas prices aren't getting any cheaper. However Dodge is getting rid of the Viper not because it isn't selling well, but because it needs to make the Challenger its top dog car so that it can actually release an SRT8 with 700HP because of environmental wacko "green" regulations being imposed on all car companies. Now that global warming is being seen as what it is...a money making/sucking hoax... Environmentalist progressive liberals are scurrying around trying to change the movement from "global warming" to "climate change" and hope people forget about that word since a cooling is occurring at the moment and the planet appears to be more resilient than older computer models once predicted.

In either case, I am getting off-topic here with my diatribe.. I have to believe there are more American's out there that would rather want to see American Muscle actually stand for what it always stood for. I want Top Gear's Clarkson to still make fun of American car's for being too heavy and having a huge engine in them with massive amounts of power making a lot of noise. I can't cozy up to gradually creating smaller engines that can go as fast with a supercharger and make a whine like a Japanese sports car without offering a monster engine in a top model. I like Dodge's approach here which is to keep making the Hemi and making it larger, faster and louder while still offering a V6 version for the Challenger for those who want the car but either can't afford the top of the line model or want to save on gas. I don't care if the car weighs a ton, it is still American and very fast in a strait line .

One thing is certain, there is a muscle car interest revival that includes the Mustang, Challenger and eventually the Camaro once more. It is time to bring out a Firebird using the Camaro's body and it'll be a glorious couple years. There will be other's around the world wishing they could own one of these as well...
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Old 04-13-2008, 01:05 PM   #14
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the government wants gas to rise but not for cars to be more effiecent... this means more tax dollars towards money hungry retards...
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Old 04-13-2008, 01:34 PM   #15
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Quote:
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You're being realistic and pessimistic at the same time here.
How am I being pesimistic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supermans View Post
YI don't believe the HP war will ever be over, but perhaps the era of adding liters to increase power are over since we are at a point of diminishing returns already and gas prices aren't getting any cheaper.
There's truth in that, allright. But even so...if the horsepower war isn't coming to a close...then when does it end? When we're all driving 5000 hp econoboxes? Once you get past 300, your average buyer can easily get into a LOT of trouble...once you pass 500 your good driver can start getting into trouble...and once you begin to put 600-700 hp cars all over the roads, you're ask for serious accidents across the board. Not to mention that more hp means more fuel. There's no way to make more power without using more fuel...it's just impossible.

The hp battle has to end somewhere. Believing it can go on and on and on would be naive.

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However Dodge is getting rid of the Viper not because it isn't selling well, but because it needs to make the Challenger its top dog car so that it can actually release an SRT8 with 700HP because of environmental wacko "green" regulations being imposed on all car companies.
Actually...Viper sales went down, like 70%. Hence the rumor of Dodge cancelling it had some merit. So if there was a reason it would get scrapped...it would be because of that. But I digress. It's not actually being cancelled; that turned out to be a false rumor. A Dodge exec at the Challenger SE, and RT unveil confirmed that.

I don't follow your logic with the Challenger, though...because fuel economy regs are going up, Dodge is going to increase the power?!

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I have to believe there are more American's out there that would rather want to see American Muscle actually stand for what it always stood for. I want Top Gear's Clarkson to still make fun of American car's for being too heavy and having a huge engine in them with massive amounts of power making a lot of noise. I can't cozy up to gradually creating smaller engines that can go as fast with a supercharger and make a whine like a Japanese sports car without offering a monster engine in a top model. I like Dodge's approach here which is to keep making the Hemi and making it larger, faster and louder while still offering a V6 version for the Challenger for those who want the car but either can't afford the top of the line model or want to save on gas. I don't care if the car weighs a ton, it is still American and very fast in a strait line .
Don't believe for one second that I don't understand where you're coming from. I love the old-era Muscle cars, and their reputation.

But I've cozied up to the idea of lighter/smaller cars (i.e. and Alpha-based Camaro) with less N/A hp, still going as fast as today. Because it's going to happen in some fashion or another. We have the tech, or are developing it - and it's going to be implemented. THAT's what "American" stands for, not getting lost in the past while everyone else moves forward. We need to lead the charge into the future, and I can't think of a better way to do it, than taking the kinds of cars that have been predominately considered "Gas-hogs" and revolutionizing them with AFM, and VVT, and DI, and E85, etc.

I don't have any opinion on what Dodge is doing with the HEMI...I just know that I like GM's approach with the up-and-coming Gen V smallblock better.


Quote:
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One thing is certain, there is a muscle car interest revival that includes the Mustang, Challenger and eventually the Camaro once more. It is time to bring out a Firebird using the Camaro's body and it'll be a glorious couple years. There will be other's around the world wishing they could own one of these as well...
Amen to that. People want interesting cars again. But making a Camaro clone will cut short that interest if sales are being stolen between the two...I'd like the Camaro to last more than a couple of years, thank you.
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Old 04-13-2008, 07:19 PM   #16
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Not to state the obvious. I love to see the manufactures go head to head and think market competition is the way to a better more cost effective product for the consumer.

But I think we are leaving out the consumer in this discussion. As long as enough of us demand that our brand be the best in any category, they will do what the can to please the customer. I think we have a bigger say in what the manufacturers do than we may think. This war ain't over until we say it is. It may be a while.

my 2 cents.
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Old 04-13-2008, 07:55 PM   #17
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I'm lovin the horsepower wars. I'm tired of fuel efficient 4 bangers. I'm ready for some REAL horsepower.
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Old 04-13-2008, 07:56 PM   #18
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As far as the hp wars goes, I think it will top out in a few years at around 600 hp for muscle cars, around the year 2012. The engines will get less powerful then, a couple years later the new generation of cars will become smaller, returning the performance we are seeing now. Odds are the challenger won't see a redesign. Camaro and mustang will. Almost every car will shrink a half size. Gear ratios will climb, adding about 1-2 seconds to most 0-60 times.

The gen IV engines will be impressive. I'm thinking we will see 5.3L V8's making the power of LS3's with fuel economy averaging in the low 20's.

And as far as hybrids not mixing with muscle cars, I don't see why IF its the 2 mode system that GM developed. There is no drop in straight line performance, a bit more weight will reduce handling. I don't know about you, but the thought of a V8 Camaro making 360 hp and getting around 30 mpg combined is awfully appealing. If we are judging what a muscle car should be by the standards set in the 1960's then fuel injection should not be allowed, neither should independand rear suspension, a factory supercharger, 6 speed transmissions, or lack of a big block.
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Old 04-14-2008, 12:55 AM   #19
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In either case, I am getting off-topic here with my diatribe.. I have to believe there are more American's out there that would rather want to see American Muscle actually stand for what it always stood for. I want Top Gear's Clarkson to still make fun of American car's for being too heavy and having a huge engine in them with massive amounts of power making a lot of noise. I can't cozy up to gradually creating smaller engines that can go as fast with a supercharger and make a whine like a Japanese sports car without offering a monster engine in a top model. I like Dodge's approach here which is to keep making the Hemi and making it larger, faster and louder while still offering a V6 version for the Challenger for those who want the car but either can't afford the top of the line model or want to save on gas. I don't care if the car weighs a ton, it is still American and very fast in a strait line.
Nope, you're just about the only one. Camaro will fail miserably if it does not perform well at the track and drag strip. Based on the recent Nürburgring photos, it seems that GM understands this and is addressing it. You can thank those rice rockets for elevating consumer demand for excellent handling to match high horsepower to weight ratios.

My notion of a "muscle car" differs. I view an American muscle car as an affordable performance oriented vehicle that puts exotic-like performance within reach of the average American. I expect a modern "muscle car" to provide >75% of the performance of a Nissan GT-R at 30% of it's cost. To do this, the performance focus has to go beyond engine and brakes.

There's a little bit of your spirit in me, but high performance isn't just cubic inches. High pressure direct injection with an appropriately designed combustion chamber is a viable approach to get more complete combustion (higher power, lower emissions and better fuel economy). I also understand the visceral allure of a naturally aspirated engine, but I'll be in line for the Camaro SS if it is a super-charged V8.

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Old 04-14-2008, 01:39 AM   #20
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How am I being pesimistic?


There's truth in that, allright. But even so...if the horsepower war isn't coming to a close...then when does it end? When we're all driving 5000 hp econoboxes? Once you get past 300, your average buyer can easily get into a LOT of trouble...once you pass 500 your good driver can start getting into trouble...and once you begin to put 600-700 hp cars all over the roads, you're ask for serious accidents across the board. Not to mention that more hp means more fuel. There's no way to make more power without using more fuel...it's just impossible.

The hp battle has to end somewhere. Believing it can go on and on and on would be naive.

Don't believe for one second that I don't understand where you're coming from. I love the old-era Muscle cars, and their reputation.

But I've cozied up to the idea of lighter/smaller cars (i.e. and Alpha-based Camaro) with less N/A hp, still going as fast as today. Because it's going to happen in some fashion or another. We have the tech, or are developing it - and it's going to be implemented. THAT's what "American" stands for, not getting lost in the past while everyone else moves forward. We need to lead the charge into the future, and I can't think of a better way to do it, than taking the kinds of cars that have been predominately considered "Gas-hogs" and revolutionizing them with AFM, and VVT, and DI, and E85, etc.

I don't have any opinion on what Dodge is doing with the HEMI...I just know that I like GM's approach with the up-and-coming Gen V smallblock better.

People want interesting cars again. But making a Camaro clone will cut short that interest if sales are being stolen between the two...I'd like the Camaro to last more than a couple of years, thank you.
Someone up there at GM needs to give this young man a job....I swear... Scott??
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Old 04-14-2008, 03:40 AM   #21
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My theory is horsepower will top off when the software can't be tweaked anymore
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Old 04-15-2008, 10:52 PM   #22
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I think the HP war is over. Or at least it will be in a few years. There comes a point where adding components to increase power (i.e. larger engines, superchargers, etc) also increases weight to the point of diminishing returns.

I see a performance war coming. One that GM isn't going to sit back and watch. With electric cars (meaning instant, massive torque) on the horizon, and next-gen IC engines with E85, and biodiesel, I can see cars getting lighter, engines getting smaller (not V8 turns into a V6, but BIG V8 turns into a medium V8, like a 305), and general accel, and handling increasing.
I think those are a good prediction of whats going to happen. the HP wars have been going on for so long it just has to stop some time and with cafe and gas prices what they are I think that time has come. I think we're really going to see more efficient ways making power like use of forced induction.
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Old 04-15-2008, 11:46 PM   #23
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I never commented on this yet so here it goes
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...if the horsepower war isn't coming to a close...then when does it end? When we're all driving 5000 hp econoboxes?
I disagree. We will be driving 5500 hp econoboxes. Those will be the only cars you can buy. Everything else will be some sort of hovercraft or flying car. Those will have 8000+ hp. GM will find a way to use pushrods in them, just because they can. And the 2075 Corvette Mk II Hovercraft will still utilize transverse leafsprings, somehow. Simply to piss Jeremy Clarkson III off on Top Gear.
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Old 04-16-2008, 12:00 AM   #24
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There is no way in hell in my lifetime that a change in the definition to what American Muscle Car stands for should ever occur. No public school Inconvenient Truth/Al Gore green friendly indoctrination class should ever put the word muscle car and hybrid/4cylinder in the same page.. The V6 Camaro might be faster than a 1998 Mustang GT, however in my book, simply because it has a V6 engine that pales in comparison to the V8 in the same technological year, you can't call the lesser model a Muscle car just because it looks like one. A changing of the definition should never happen and a marketing campaign trying to change the definition.. (New Slogan= Redefining what you call American Muscle) We are already getting that from Fbodfather in snipets (forget all you know about engine's).. cozzying us up for a change, probably because of environmental standards and so forth.. I think now I am going to wait for the 2010 SRT8 with the 7.0 Liter 600HP engine in it. This article has those numbers wrong as it has been confirmed or leaked that the new Hemi will be 7.0 liters and offer over 600HP. In either case, that puts it in a whole other category.

my quote about "forget all you know about engines" -- is very misunderstood and I need to clarify.......

I made that statement when people thought we'd put an LS2 or a Z06 engine in the Camaro...........my point was: The LS2 is an old engine -- we have new stuff that you haven't heard about --- (remember -- this quote was a while ago!) --

I was NOT referring to Turbo Charged 4 cylinder engines!!!!!!!

I am a V8 guy -- I am NOT trying to sell you on a perspective............other than:

>Camaro will be class leading

>It will be a car you can be proud to own.................
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Old 04-16-2008, 12:04 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fbodfather View Post
-- we have new stuff that you haven't heard about ---
Oh, now I get it!

New stuff!
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