|08-18-2009, 02:07 PM||#1|
Supercharger / Turbocharger Results (INFO) Thread
So I think there may be some people interested in this sort of information. I know there's another thread around (probably more than one...) regarding numbers, but I thought maybe those that have had superchargers (SC)s and/or turbos' installed, wouldn't mind sharing their results in a common Sticky so that those of us that are interested have a resource that we can easily referrence.
I think it'd be nice to collect information such as what the brand/model is, how many psi. it's pushing, and any other mods' done on tha car for that given set-up. Graphs would be cool to share too, but I think it'd be nice to just have an "update-able" little database for crunching numbers.
I'll be looking for referrence information to describe what SC and Turbo' chargers actually do and how they influence engine power. Please feel free to share any information you may have so we can have as comprehensive a referrence as possible.
Since the invention of the internal combustion engine, automotive engineers, speed junkies and racecar designers have been searching for ways to boost its power. One way to add power is to build a bigger engine. But bigger engines, which weigh more and cost more to build and maintain, are not always better.
Another way to add power is to make a normal-sized engine more efficient. You can accomplish this by forcing more air into the combustion chamber. More air means more fuel can be added, and more fuel means a bigger explosion and greater horsepower. Adding a supercharger is a great way to achieve forced air induction. In this article, we'll explain what superchargers are, how they work and how they compare to turbochargers.
A supercharger is any device that pressurizes the air intake to above atmospheric pressure. Both superchargers and turbochargers do this. In fact, the term "turbocharger" is a shortened version of "turbo-supercharger," its official name.
The difference between the two devices is their source of energy. Turbochargers are powered by the mass-flow of exhaust gases driving a turbine. Superchargers are powered mechanically by belt- or chain-drive from the engine's crankshaft.
An ordinary four-stroke engine dedicates one stroke to the process of air intake. There are three steps in this process:
The piston moves down.
This creates a vacuum.
Air at atmospheric pressure is sucked into the combustion chamber.
Once air is drawn into the engine, it must be combined with fuel to form the charge -- a packet of potential energy that can be turned into useful kinetic energy through a chemical reaction known as combustion. The spark plug initiates this chemical reaction by igniting the charge. As the fuel undergoes oxidation, a great deal of energy is released. The force of this explosion, concentrated above the cylinder head, drives the piston down and creates a reciprocating motion that is eventually transferred to the wheels.
Getting more fuel into the charge would make for a more powerful explosion. But you can't simply pump more fuel into the engine because an exact amount of oxygen is required to burn a given amount of fuel. This chemically correct mixture -- 14 parts air to one part fuel -- is essential for an engine to operate efficiently. The bottom line: To put in more fuel, you have to put in more air.
That's the job of the supercharger. Superchargers increase intake by compressing air above atmospheric pressure, without creating a vacuum. This forces more air into the engine, providing a "boost." With the additional air in the boost, more fuel can be added to the charge, and the power of the engine is increased. Supercharging adds an average of 46 percent more horsepower and 31 percent more torque. In high-altitude situations, where engine performance deteriorates because the air has low density and pressure, a supercharger delivers higher-pressure air to the engine so it can operate optimally.
Unlike turbochargers, which use the exhaust gases created by combustion to power the compressor, superchargers draw their power directly from the crankshaft. Most are driven by an accessory belt, which wraps around a pulley that is connected to a drive gear. The drive gear, in turn, rotates the compressor gear. The rotor of the compressor can come in various designs, but its job is to draw air in, squeeze the air into a smaller space and discharge it into the intake manifold.
To pressurize the air, a supercharger must spin rapidly -- more rapidly than the engine itself. Making the drive gear larger than the compressor gear causes the compressor to spin faster. Superchargers can spin at speeds as high as 50,000 to 65,000 rotations per minute (RPM).
A compressor spinning at 50,000 RPM translates to a boost of about six to nine pounds per square inch (psi). That's six to nine additional psi over the atmospheric pressure at a particular elevation. Atmospheric pressure at sea level is 14.7 psi, so a typical boost from a supercharger places about 50 percent more air into the engine.
As the air is compressed, it gets hotter, which means that it loses its density and can not expand as much during the explosion. This means that it can't create as much power when it's ignited by the spark plug. For a supercharger to work at peak efficiency, the compressed air exiting the discharge unit must be cooled before it enters the intake manifold. The intercooler is responsible for this cooling process. Intercoolers come in two basic designs: air-to-air intercoolers and air-to-water intercoolers. Both work just like a radiator, with cooler air or water sent through a system of pipes or tubes. As the hot air exiting the supercharger encounters the cooler pipes, it also cools down. The reduction in air temperature increases the density of the air, which makes for a denser charge entering the combustion chamber.
There are three types of superchargers: Roots, twin-screw and centrifugal. The main difference is how they move air to the intake manifold of the engine. Roots and twin-screw superchargers use different types of meshing lobes, and a centrifugal supercharger uses an impeller, which draws air in. Although all of these designs provide a boost, they differ considerably in their efficiency. Each type of supercharger is available in different sizes, depending on whether you just want to give your car a boost or compete in a race.
The Roots supercharger is the oldest design. Philander and Francis Roots patented the design in 1860 as a machine that would help ventilate mine shafts. In 1900, Gottleib Daimler included a Roots supercharger in a car engine.
As the meshing lobes spin, air trapped in the pockets between the lobes is carried between the fill side and the discharge side. Large quantities of air move into the intake manifold and "stack up" to create positive pressure. For this reason, Roots superchargers are really nothing more than air blowers, and the term "blower" is still often used to describe all superchargers.
Roots superchargers are usually large and sit on top of the engine. They are popular in muscle cars and hot rods because they stick out of the hood of the car. However, they are the least efficient supercharger for two reasons: They add more weight to the vehicle and they move air in discrete bursts instead of in a smooth and continuous flow.
A twin-screw supercharger operates by pulling air through a pair of meshing lobes that resemble a set of worm gears. Like the Roots supercharger, the air inside a twin-screw supercharger is trapped in pockets created by the rotor lobes. But a twin-screw supercharger compresses the air inside the rotor housing. That's because the rotors have a conical taper, which means the air pockets decrease in size as air moves from the fill side to the discharge side. As the air pockets shrink, the air is squeezed into a smaller space.
This makes twin-screw superchargers more efficient, but they cost more because the screw-type rotors require more precision in the manufacturing process. Some types of twin-screw superchargers sit above the engine like the Roots supercharger. They also make a lot of noise. The compressed air exiting the discharge outlet creates a whine or whistle that must be subdued with noise suppression techniques.
A centrifugal supercharger powers an impeller -- a device similar to a rotor -- at very high speeds to quickly draw air into a small compressor housing. Impeller speeds can reach 50,000 to 60,000 RPM. As the air is drawn in at the hub of the impeller, centrifugal force causes it to radiate outward. The air leaves the impeller at high speed, but low pressure. A diffuser -- a set of stationary vanes that surround the impeller -- converts the high-speed, low-pressure air to low-speed, high-pressure air. Air molecules slow down when they hit the vanes, which reduces the velocity of the airflow and increases pressure
Centrifugal superchargers are the most efficient and the most common of all forced induction systems. They are small, lightweight and attach to the front of the engine instead of the top. They also make a distinctive whine as the engine revs up -- a quality that may turn heads out on the street.
Any of these superchargers can be added to a vehicle as an after-market enhancement. Several companies offer kits that come with all of the parts necessary to install a supercharger as a do-it-yourself project. In the world of funny cars and fuel racers, such customization is an integral part of the sport. Several auto manufacturers also include superchargers in their production models.
The biggest advantage of having a supercharger is the increased horsepower. Attach a supercharger to an otherwise normal car or truck, and it will behave like a vehicle with a larger, more powerful engine.
But what if someone is trying to decide between a supercharger and a turbocharger? This question is hotly debated by auto engineers and car enthusiasts, but in general, superchargers offer a few advantages over turbochargers.
Superchargers do not suffer lag -- a term used to describe how much time passes between the driver depressing the gas pedal and the engine's response. Turbochargers suffer from lag because it takes a few moments before the exhaust gases reach a velocity that is sufficient to drive the impeller/turbine. Superchargers have no lag time because they are driven directly by the crankshaft. Certain superchargers are more efficient at lower RPM, while others are more efficient at higher RPM. Roots and twin-screw superchargers, for example, provide more power at lower RPM. Centrifugal superchargers, which become more efficient as the impeller spins faster, provide more power at higher RPM.
Installing a turbocharger requires extensive modification of the exhaust system, but superchargers can be bolted to the top or side of the engine. That makes them cheaper to install and easier to service and maintain.
Finally, no special shutdown procedure is required with superchargers. Because they are not lubricated by engine oil, they can be shut down normally. Turbochargers must idle for about 30 seconds or so prior to shutdown so the lubricating oil has a chance to cool down. With that said, a good warm-up is important for superchargers, as they work most efficiently at normal operating temperatures.
Superchargers are common additions to the internal combustion engines of airplanes. This makes sense when you consider that airplanes spend most of their time at high altitudes, where significantly less oxygen is available for combustion. With the introduction of superchargers, airplanes were able to fly higher without losing engine performance.
Superchargers used with aircraft engines work just like those found in cars. They draw their power directly from the engine and use a compressor to blow pressurized air into the combustion chamber. The illustration above shows the basic setup for a supercharged airplane.
The biggest disadvantage of superchargers is also their defining characteristic: Because the crankshaft drives them, they must steal some of the engine's horsepower. A supercharger can consume as much as 20 percent of an engine's total power output. But because a supercharger can generate as much as 46 percent additional horsepower, most think the trade-off is worth it.
Supercharging puts an added strain on the engine, which needs to be strong to handle the extra boost and bigger explosions. Most manufacturers account for this by specifying heavy-duty components when they design an engine intended for supercharged use. This makes the vehicle more expensive. Superchargers also cost more to maintain, and most manufacturers suggest high-octane premium-grade gas.
Despite their disadvantages, superchargers are still the most cost-effective way to increase horsepower. Superchargers can result in power increases of 50 to 100 percent, making them great for racing, towing heavy loads or just adding excitement to the typical driving experience.
When people talk about race cars or high-performance sports cars, the topic of turbochargers usually comes up. Turbochargers also appear on large diesel engines. A turbo can significantly boost an engine's horsepower without significantly increasing its weight, which is the huge benefit that makes turbos so popular!
In this article, we'll learn how a turbocharger increases the power output of an engine while surviving extreme operating conditions. We'll also learn how wastegates, ceramic turbine blades and ball bearings help turbochargers do their job even better. Turbochargers are a type of forced induction system. They compress the air flowing into the engine (see How Car Engines Work for a description of airflow in a normal engine). The advantage of compressing the air is that it lets the engine squeeze more air into a cylinder, and more air means that more fuel can be added. Therefore, you get more power from each explosion in each cylinder. A turbocharged engine produces more power overall than the same engine without the charging. This can significantly improve the power-to-weight ratio for the engine.
In order to achieve this boost, the turbocharger uses the exhaust flow from the engine to spin a turbine, which in turn spins an air pump. The turbine in the turbocharger spins at speeds of up to 150,000 rotations per minute (rpm) -- that's about 30 times faster than most car engines can go. And since it is hooked up to the exhaust, the temperatures in the turbine are also very high.
Turbochargers and Engines
One of the surest ways to get more power out of an engine is to increase the amount of air and fuel that it can burn. One way to do this is to add cylinders or make the current cylinders bigger. Sometimes these changes may not be feasible -- a turbo can be a simpler, more compact way to add power, especially for an aftermarket accessory.
Turbochargers allow an engine to burn more fuel and air by packing more into the existing cylinders. The typical boost provided by a turbocharger is 6 to 8 pounds per square inch (psi). Since normal atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi at sea level, you can see that you are getting about 50 percent more air into the engine. Therefore, you would expect to get 50 percent more power. It's not perfectly efficient, so you might get a 30- to 40-percent improvement instead.
One cause of the inefficiency comes from the fact that the power to spin the turbine is not free. Having a turbine in the exhaust flow increases the restriction in the exhaust. This means that on the exhaust stroke, the engine has to push against a higher back-pressure. This subtracts a little bit of power from the cylinders that are firing at the same time.
The turbocharger is bolted to the exhaust manifold of the engine. The exhaust from the cylinders spins the turbine, which works like a gas turbine engine. The turbine is connected by a shaft to the compressor, which is located between the air filter and the intake manifold. The compressor pressurizes the air going into the pistons.
The exhaust from the cylinders passes through the turbine blades, causing the turbine to spin. The more exhaust that goes through the blades, the faster they spin.
On the other end of the shaft that the turbine is attached to, the compressor pumps air into the cylinders. The compressor is a type of centrifugal pump -- it draws air in at the center of its blades and flings it outward as it spins.
In order to handle speeds of up to 150,000 rpm, the turbine shaft has to be supported very carefully. Most bearings would explode at speeds like this, so most turbochargers use a fluid bearing. This type of bearing supports the shaft on a thin layer of oil that is constantly pumped around the shaft. This serves two purposes: It cools the shaft and some of the other turbocharger parts, and it allows the shaft to spin without much friction.
There are many tradeoffs involved in designing a turbocharger for an engine. In the next section, we'll look at some of these compromises and see how they affect performance.
One of the main problems with turbochargers is that they do not provide an immediate power boost when you step on the gas. It takes a second for the turbine to get up to speed before boost is produced. This results in a feeling of lag when you step on the gas, and then the car lunges ahead when the turbo gets moving.
One way to decrease turbo lag is to reduce the inertia of the rotating parts, mainly by reducing their weight. This allows the turbine and compressor to accelerate quickly, and start providing boost earlier. One sure way to reduce the inertia of the turbine and compressor is to make the turbocharger smaller. A small turbocharger will provide boost more quickly and at lower engine speeds, but may not be able to provide much boost at higher engine speeds when a really large volume of air is going into the engine. It is also in danger of spinning too quickly at higher engine speeds, when lots of exhaust is passing through the turbine.
A large turbocharger can provide lots of boost at high engine speeds, but may have bad turbo lag because of how long it takes to accelerate its heavier turbine and compressor. Luckily, there are some tricks used to overcome these challenges.
Most automotive turbochargers have a wastegate, which allows the use of a smaller turbocharger to reduce lag while preventing it from spinning too quickly at high engine speeds. The wastegate is a valve that allows the exhaust to bypass the turbine blades. The wastegate senses the boost pressure. If the pressure gets too high, it could be an indicator that the turbine is spinning too quickly, so the wastegate bypasses some of the exhaust around the turbine blades, allowing the blades to slow down.
Some turbochargers use ball bearings instead of fluid bearings to support the turbine shaft. But these are not your regular ball bearings -- they are super-precise bearings made of advanced materials to handle the speeds and temperatures of the turbocharger. They allow the turbine shaft to spin with less friction than the fluid bearings used in most turbochargers. They also allow a slightly smaller, lighter shaft to be used. This helps the turbocharger accelerate more quickly, further reducing turbo lag.
Ceramic turbine blades are lighter than the steel blades used in most turbochargers. Again, this allows the turbine to spin up to speed faster, which reduces turbo lag.
Using Two Turbochargers & More Turbo Parts
Some engines use two turbochargers of different sizes. The smaller one spins up to speed very quickly, reducing lag, while the bigger one takes over at higher engine speeds to provide more boost.
When air is compressed, it heats up; and when air heats up, it expands. So some of the pressure increase from a turbocharger is the result of heating the air before it goes into the engine. In order to increase the power of the engine, the goal is to get more air molecules into the cylinder, not necessarily more air pressure.
An intercooler or charge air cooler is an additional component that looks something like a radiator, except air passes through the inside as well as the outside of the intercooler. The intake air passes through sealed passageways inside the cooler, while cooler air from outside is blown across fins by the engine cooling fan.
The intercooler further increases the power of the engine by cooling the pressurized air coming out of the compressor before it goes into the engine. This means that if the turbocharger is operating at a boost of 7 psi, the intercooled system will put in 7 psi of cooler air, which is denser and contains more air molecules than warmer air.
A turbocharger also helps at high altitudes, where the air is less dense. Normal engines will experience reduced power at high altitudes because for each stroke of the piston, the engine will get a smaller mass of air. A turbocharged engine may also have reduced power, but the reduction will be less dramatic because the thinner air is easier for the turbocharger to pump.
Older cars with carburetors automatically increase the fuel rate to match the increased airflow going into the cylinders. Modern cars with fuel injection will also do this to a point. The fuel-injection system relies on oxygen sensors in the exhaust to determine if the air-to-fuel ratio is correct, so these systems will automatically increase the fuel flow if a turbo is added.
If a turbocharger with too much boost is added to a fuel-injected car, the system may not provide enough fuel -- either the software programmed into the controller will not allow it, or the pump and injectors are not capable of supplying it. In this case, other modifications will have to be made to get the maximum benefit from the turbocharger.
"...What IS true: We anticipated that this would happen - we are never finished - and yes, Ford DOES deserve to win now and then. To think that GM can come out with a car to make ford throw in the towel is simply foolhardy..." - fbodfather
|08-18-2009, 02:10 PM||#2|
CARB # EO # D488-15 for the 2010 V8 Chevrolet Camaro
This supercharger is being utilized by several tuner companies like Hennessey, Lingenfelter, and SLP, to name a few. I'll be combining information from these companies, that use this SC, in this group to simplify.
The Magnuson Model MP2300 6th Generation is a “State of the Art” supercharger. It was designed as a compact, flexible supercharger for increased power with original equipment quietness and reliability without adversely affecting fuel economy. The MP2300 6th Generation has proven itself in a number of original equipment and aftermarket applications on a variety of engine sizes. This version has taken this versatility to the next level with new 4-lobe, high helix rotor design and a built in bypass for unparalleled performance.
Most installations see a realistic 40% plus increase in power output.
Magnuson Superchargers will work effectively in any orientation (flat, upside down, on edge).
Different length drives are available, giving the custom installer flexibility in the placement of the supercharger.
Magnuson 6th generation superchargers have internal bypass valves. The bypass actuator can be located in any of 8 possible locations (4 on each side of the supercharger).
Shown with generic one-piece drive. Two-piece and different one-piece drives are available, as are pulleys with variable offset giving a wide range of possible drive lengths.
Two-piece extension drives available in 1" increments. Drive pulley offset design offers further options.
"vsgls1"- LS3 TVS2300 ARH LTs w/cats' LMR CAI 535.9/517.6 RWHP/RWTQ
"rpepka" - L99 TVS2300 Yank 2800 TC Valve Springs Blower Cam
Lingenfelter (LPE) 570 package: "Speedy74SS" - LS3 518/503 RWHP/RWTQ
- TVS2300 intercooled supercharger system
- Black powder coated finish
- Based on OEM Eaton supercharger unit
- Properly sized fuel injectors
- Fuel system upgrades
- 160 Degree thermostat
- Boost bypass controller
- Kenne Bell Boost-a-pump fuel pump voltage booster
- Lingenfelter High Flow Air Intake
- Professional installation, testing and calibration
- Chassis dyno report before & after installation
- Excellent drivability, highway mileage not adversely affected
- Lingenfelter 3 year/ 36,000 mile warranty
- Lingenfelter chrome fender badges
- Lingenfelter certificate of authenticity
Hennessey (HPE) 650 package: LS3 592 RWHP
- Black Magnuson Supercharger System (Chrome Optional)
- High-Flow Cylinder Heads (Core Exchange)
- HPE650 Custom Spec Camshaft
- HPE Cold Air Inducction
- 1-7/8 inch Long Tube Stainless Steel Headers
- High Flow Catalytic Converters
- Stainless Steel Cat-Back Exhaust
- Upgraded Fuel Injectors
- HPE Engine Management Calibration
- Professional Installation
- Dyno Tuning & Road Testing
- Hennessey & HPE650 Exterior Badges
- Limited Edition Dash Plaque & Engine Plaque w/ Serial Number
- Hennessey Premium Floormats
- 1 Year / 12,000 Mile Limited Warranty
East Texas Muscle Cars
323HP (approx. baseline) L99 497/512 RWHP/RWTQ
TVS2300; ARH LTs w/cats; Magnaflow CB; ETMC TUNE
SLP TVS2300 LS3
530 RWHP thread:
Whipple Superchargers (Twin Screw)
L99 538/516 RWHP/RWTQ @ ~ 9psi
THE BIGGEST, MOST EFFICIENT , MOST POWERFUL POSITIVE DISPLACEMENT SUPERCHARGER SYSTEM
Since 1988, Whipple Superchargers have been the pioneers and leaders of twin-screw supercharging. Whipple was the first to bring positive displacement technology to fuel injected, emissions legal GM applications. With over 21 years of GM twin-screw supercharging experience, Whipple’s team have now engineered the most powerful intercooled twin-screw SC system available today for your Chevrolet Camaro. With all the latest technology, the all new Whipple system makes more power (up to 220hp over stock) than any other positive displacement supercharger system on the market giving you tire frying, neck whipping power that will give you a grin from ear to ear. The new Whipple system is 100% complete and is designed for stock engines but has enough capability to work with heavily modified engines.
The all-new system features Whipple’s massive oversized air-to-water intercooler for unmatched cooling capacity, front feed W175ax (a whopping 2.9 liters) Whipple twin-screw supercharger that reaches 99% volumetric efficiency and industry leading power potential. The unique intercooled bypass system offers better acceleration and less than 1hp of consumption during cruising for excellent fuel economy. The system also includes high-flow fuel injectors, aluminum high flow intake manifold and a Whipple Power Flash Programmer for the factory ECU recalibration. While others claim, Whipple Superchargers simply deliver more power per pound of boost than any other supercharger on the market today.
WHIPPLE SUPERCHARGERS EXCLUSIVE FEATURES:
2010 6.2L WHIPPLE CHARGED CAMARO DYNO RESULTS
VEHICLE: 2010 6.2L L99/Auto
Boost PSI: 9.0psi
Average AF: 11.8:1
RPM Limit: Stock
Fuel: 91 octane (Chevron)
Temperature: 80.65° F
Barometric PSI: 29.91 In-Hg
NUMBERS ARE REAR WHEEL STD POWER MEASURED ON A DYNO JET CHASSIS DYNO. DYNO RESULTS WILL VARY WITH DYNO’S, APPLICATIONS AND ATMOSPHERIC CONDITIONS
TO CONVERT RWHP TO ENGINE HORSEPOWER AND TORQUE
(RWHP/.80) = ENGINE HORSEPOWER AND TORQUE
EXAMPLE: (538/.80) = 672 HORSEPOWER
Kenne Bell (Twin Screw)
LS3 573/540 RWHP/RWTQ @ ~ 7.5 PSI (canned tune w/DT Shorties & CB and upgraded filter - not OEM air box)
STANDARD KIT FEATURES
THE KENNE BELL CAMARO 2.8, 3.6, 4.2L MAMMOTH™ KITS
These kits push Camaro performance over the top. And they compliment the rich Camaro performance heritage with a fully exposed top mount - front facing retro style supercharger kit. We’re proud of our billet supercharger, so there are no supercharger “covers” or restrictive external runners that hide the supercharger. And no underhood exposed intercoolers, piping and “hot air” sucking filters to clutter up the engine bay. Just that clean, visible and intimidating Kenne Bell Billet Twin Screw MAMMOTH™ Kit.We incorporated all the industry leading Kenne Bell Twin Screw MAMMOTH™ technology into our new Camaro Kits. And we built in plenty of room to grow. This resulted in the most powerful, highest HP potential kits available for the Camaro - the same basic 2.8L kit design chosen by Shelby for their 725HP and new 800HP Super Snakes, Mr. Norm for his 650HP Cuda Challenger and the RPO 650, 825 and 1000HP Camaros, the three most powerful production musclecars ever. With a Kenne Bell Kit, your L53 engine will suck in ONY cool, dense, power enhancing air from the unique Kenne Bell inlet filter located behind the front bumper. Just like the bumper, cowl and hood scoops of the ‘60’s and ‘70’s. Cooler air means more O2, HP and boost with less engine detonation. And you won’t get sleepy or hungry waiting for the boost to spool up as the supercharger doesn’t rely on engine speed to increase boost as with centrifugals and turbos.
WHY KENNE BELL? Since 1990, Kenne Bell has been number 1 in PD (positive displacement) supercharging. And we’re still on top. Today, new Patent Pending Kenne Bell innovations leave the competition hot and gasping for air. In the end, it is the supercharger kit that makes the HP and not pet theories, rhetoric, hype and misleading tests. The Kenne Bell hi-tech 4x6 rotor lobe superchargers require up to 100 LESS engine HP to drive (less parasitic loss) with measurably cooler air charge, cooler oil temps - and unsurpassed HP potential for room to grow. Kenne Bell simply out powers the competition with all new technology - 1. Liquid Cooling (LC) 2. Advanced 4x6 rotor profiles 3. Seal Pressure Equalization (SPE) and 4. CNC ported inlet and discharge. And the higher the HP the greater the Kenne Bell difference. Check out our product features, dyno tests and tech and you will see why Kenne Bell is the “go to supercharger website.”
KENNE BELL TESTING PHILOSOPHY At Kenne Bell, our philosophy is simple. We don’t believe it unless we test it. For 42+ years, we have spent the time and resources necessary to supply our customers with honest, accurate, repeatable test results and tech info on our products. We don’t skew or camouflage our test data or advertising by relying on “hood open” testing or Nitrous, headers, cams, heads, strokers, built motors and other “not mentioned” modifications to enhance the performance of our supercharger kits. That’s misleading. Instead, we test the supercharger kits on STOCK engines and cars just like the ones 90% of our customers drive. The “Kit” HP and HP potential (room to grow) should stand on its own merit. And if we add “other products” or make modifications, we duly note it and/or publish the test results. We are not a “one test - so buy it” company. This way, Kenne Bell customers can see exactly how much HP - and where - our kits produce WITHOUT and WITH other bolt ons or modifications and then intelligently compare it to the competition. Isn’t that the way it should be? We think so. Our customers think so. So read the info and tech and give us a call if you have any questions or suggestions.
HP POTENTIAL Twin Screw superchargers MUST RELY ON LARGE FREE FLOWING INLET SYSTEM TO PRODUCE MAXIMUM PERFORMANCE. The 2.8, 3.6LC and 4.2LC Kits all use a huge air guzzling 4.5” filter, 4.5” MAF meter and 4.5”x4’ long Ram Air Pipe feeding the MAMMOTH™ inlet manifold (accepts up to 115mm throttle body). Compare that to the competition. Kenne Bell “0” restriction - short runner discharge manifold, intercooler and heat exchanger are designed to support 1000+HP on a 100% stock motor. Forged pistons and rods are necessary at some point but the kit components including the 2.8L will support it, so there’s no upgrading of basic components necessary with the 2.8, 3.6 or 4.2 kits. Just upgrade the stock 90mm throttle body to our 115mm. See Tech Tips for dyno tests. It fits the oversized Kenne Bell MAMMOTH™ inlet manifold and 4.5” inlet system.
Note: The ideal supercharger (2.8, 3.6 or 4.2) choice will depend on 1. engine and size 2. modifications 3. boost and 4. HP goals.
But rest assured, Kenne Bell 2.8, 3.6 and 4.2 superchargers are able to support 647-1400HP with the LOWEST power consumption/parasitic losses, the coolest air temps and highest cfm. And we can prove it. If 647HP, a gain of 174HP from the 2.8 on 91 octane pump gas isn’t enough, 94 octane is even more HP or step up to a 3.6 or 4.2 kit or higher octane fuel on the 2.8.
RETRO TOP MOUNT - REAR INLET Why hide a supercharger? We believe superchargers should be exposed (run cooler), right side up, pull air from the rear and face forward with the drive pulley on the front of the supercharger and not in the back. “Front entry” designs require the air make ONE right turn into the front inlet manifold. The KB air flow does ONE left turn into the inlet manifold so WHY the complexity and “backwards” look of the front inlet? A “front inlet” concept requires a power robbing jackshaft system with additional gears or pulleys, bearings, brackets, etc. Kenne Bell Ford, Dodge and GM kits can all pull 1200HP of air through the MAMMOTH™ Rear Inlet Systems. Can a front inlet really top this? And it will support 1200HP, wouldn't you think it would do exceptionally well at 500, 600 and 800HP?
A Kenne Bell “blow down” design means no hot intercooler or manifold runners to restrict air flow, heat soak and heat up the supercharger itself. Short runners with a “top mount” supercharger produce the most top end HP. Granted “long” runners increase torque at low rpm but who needs just a few more ft. lbs. of torque with a Twin Screw while sacrificing all that top end HP? Check out those big, flat, fat torque curves the Kenne Bell kits make. Does it get any better than this? Also, the Kenne Bell “blow down” kit eliminates the stock plastic intake manifold which was never designed for high boost or 50-300% more air flow. Oops. Finally, by mounting the supercharger on top of the engine instead of on the side frees up the “sides” for our big Ram Air Pipe and “external” filter (worth 30HP vs. air filter in the hot engine compartment). Ever wonder why everyone dyno tests with the hood OPEN? You don’t drive around that way, do you? Wake up. It’s tested OPEN to allow more cool air into the engine compartment. That is bogus HP.
AF (AIR FUEL) RATIO Your kit is factory tuned and calibrated at Kenne Bell at 11-11.5 AFR, the ideal ratio for street use. No expensive custom tuning is necessary. If you still choose to have your car “retuned” NEVER USE A DYNO THAT DOES NOT TUNE WITH AN OEM GRADE AFM1000, HORIBA or ETAS AFR SYSTEM. And there’s only 10HP between 11.5 and 12.5 (max power but requires higher octane fuel).
HOOD UP vs HOOD CLOSED DYNO TESTS Any Camaro should be dyno tested with the hood closed - like the car is driven. Kenne Bell dyno tests were with hood “closed.” “Open” hood testing eliminates the hot air ingested by underhood filters and overrates dyno HP numbers (1% power loss for every 10° above ambient up to 30HP). One would have to be living under a rock to not understand the benefits of cooler air.
HEADERS & CAT BACK The American Racing system (2" headers and 3" cat back) made the most HP on our test car. Hard to beat this one. Be sure you have an experienced and reputable tuner for the headers.
Our test car clutch began slipping at 650RWHP.
The Centerforce Dual Disc assembly is our recommendation.
It will hold 1000RWHP yet is easy on the leg (low pedal pressure).
FUEL SYSTEM The stock Camaro Fuel System, coupled to the Kenne Bell BOOST-A-PUMP can supply a lot of fuel and HP. With stock fuel system and larger injectors, the 17.5V BOOST-A-PUMP is O.K. to 688RWHP (L53) and 614HP (L99). For higher HP, use the Competition BOOST-A-PUMP, which will support up to 750RWHP (L53) and 689RWHP (L99) with a safety margin. A dual pump system with BOOST-A-PUMP is recommended after 750RWHP.
|08-19-2009, 08:56 AM||#3|
ATI - Procharger (Centrifugal Style)
Industry Leading Power
With ProCharger technology, reliably adding big horsepower to your engine is a lot easier than you may think. Intercooled ProCharger systems utilize exclusive features and proven technology to deliver reliable 50-85% gains in horsepower and torque with stock motors running pump gas. ProCharger technology is proven to produce the industry's largest power gains and coolest charge air temperatures, and ATI is also the only company that guarantees the best performance gains. Nothing else even comes close! For modified street applications, ProCharger technology delivers 10-second ET's with the least amount of engine modifications - and with the supercharger still under warranty. For highly modified applications, ProCharger is the undisputed leader, and is over 800 horsepower ahead of the competition. Superior products yield superior results.
The patented SC design eliminates the need for oil lines and punching a hole in the oil pan. Additionally, instead of being forced to utilize heated engine oil or the grease in sealed bearings, SC ProChargers are lubricated with an extremely high quality synthetic oil which is specifically engineered for high speed use, and produces the least frictional heat and parasitic load. The self-contained design not only eliminates the heat that is transferred to a supercharger by engine oil in oil-fed applications, it also avoids the risk of clogged supercharger oil lines, oil drainage problems, or engine oil leakage. By combining an advanced multi-patented supercharger transmission design with the highest quality oil, SC ProChargers produce a larger net power gain because they run cooler and consume less power than comparable oil-fed designs. Both street and strip ProCharger models are also the most durable superchargers available, and are backed by the industry's best warranty coverage.
"Rayban" - LS3 540 RWHP
7.5 psi D1sc, SLP LM II CB
"Mindz" - LS3 491 RWHP
7 psi P1sc, Stock tune and powertrain
Vortech (Centrifugal/?Twin Screw?)
Established in 1990, Vortech Engineering, LLC offers a variety of automotive performance products including complete supercharging systems, fuel system components and air-to-water aftercoolers for domestic and import vehicles plus marine applications. Vortech has also consistently earned praise from the automotive press for its premier centrifugal supercharging systems and performance enhancing parts and accessories.
Vortech has been credited with a number of innovations in the field of centrifugal supercharging. Among these achievements include being the first to utilize a supercharger development test cell designed and operated in accordance with SAE Standard J-1723. We also demonstrated the first successful use of gears in a centrifugal supercharger. In addition, Vortech initiated the use of an air bypass valve in systems and air/oil mist system for cooling.
Vortech has been awarded six US patents and has received three of the prestigious Specialty Equipment Market Association (SEMA) awards for Best Engineered New Product. No other centrifugal manufacturer has ever received one of these coveted awards. These achievements were not so much a flash of brilliance as the culmination of an intensive development process.
What Separates Vortech From The Competition:
Standard 3 year limited warranty on most street supercharging systems
Excellent technical support from factory trained, knowledgeable, and enthusiastic personnel
Designed for maximum performance at safe boost levels on stock unmodified engines
Optional supercharger upgrades available to achieve 25+PSI (requires fuel system, internal engine, and computer modifications)
Most street systems are 50 state emission legal
OBD-II computer compatible
True OEM quality fit and finish, and designed to fit under the factory hood
100% complete, even down to the wire ties, making installation trouble free
"Owner Unkonwn" L99 484/421 RWHP/RWTQ
Here is the review from Edmunds.com:
It's an unforgettable grinding whine. Sort of like a puma's growl before it pounces, but more menacing, higher pitched and just evil. And it comes when this 2010 Chevrolet Camaro SS by Vortech Engineering starts up and its 6.2-liter V8 settles into an idle. Nothing sounds quite like a Vortech centrifugal supercharger.
In this case it's the same V-3 Si-Trim blower from Vortech Engineering that had been bolted into the Speedfactory supercharged Dodge Challenger SRT8 that we drove last January. Some people would want to pull out their molars if they had to listen to the persistent scream of a centrifugal supercharger. Others would record the sound and put it on their iPod. Either way, it's a distinctive, intimidating sound, so different from a turbocharger or even a Roots-type supercharger. Bolt a Vortech supercharger up to any car's engine, and the well-educated world knows what's under the hood even before it's opened.
So we have the Vortech supercharger here, and it's working with the 6.2-liter V8 of the 2010 Chevrolet Camaro SS. We're expecting the sort of performance that flattens eyeballs, cracks open skulls and inspires Alan Jackson songs. This combination should work even better because this particular Camaro is equipped with a six-speed automatic transmission.
No Shift, Sherlock
Vortech Engineering has been in the supercharger business for a long time, and it knows that the 2010 Chevrolet Camaro SS will be sold with a lot more six-speed automatics than six-speed manuals — something like four automatics to every manual, in fact.
But the automatic Camaro SS carries GM's L99 V8, which is rated at 400 horsepower at 5,900 rpm, while the manual Camaro SS gets GM's LS3 V8, which is rated at 426 hp at 5,900 rpm. Meanwhile, the L99 also produces a bit less torque than the LS3 V8, 410 pound-feet of torque at 4,300 rpm compared to 420 lb-ft of torque at 4,600 rpm. Compression ratio is the big difference, as the L99 runs at 10.4:1, while the LS3 squeezes tighter at 10.7:1. Also the L99 engine runs GM's Active Fuel Management, which deactivates cylinders under light throttle loads to improve fuel economy.
The L99's slightly lower compression ratio and slightly lower torque peak both work to the advantage of the Vortech installation, however. First, the slightly lower compression ratio makes the engine more compatible with forced induction because there's less risk of detonation. Second, a centrifugal blower is more effective at higher rpm than a Roots-type blower (as used in Hennessey Performance Engineering's HPE550 Camaro), so its characteristic blower heave past about 4,000 rpm works well with a torque curve that's meatier at the bottom end.
And as far as GM's cylinder deactivation system is concerned, we didn't detect any problems.
Blow by Blow
A compact centrifugal supercharger is easier to package than a big Roots-type blower, so the Vortech Engineering installation is a neat piece of complicated packaging. The V-3 supercharger sits on the left side of the engine bay and is bolted to the engine by two plates of billet aluminum. It sucks air through a custom roto-molded cold-air induction system, then sends the compressed air charge through a 3-inch mandrel-bend aluminum tube to an air-to-air intercooler that sits just below the front bumper. From there, the compressed air has a straight shot back up to the throttle body and into the cylinders.
Driving the blower is a 10-rib belt that runs down to a pulley on the crank. An automatic tensioner keeps the belt taut and a new crank damper smoothes out any vibration from the bigger bangs in the cylinders.
To feed the engine the greater volume of fuel it needs, Vortech replaces the injectors with high-flow units and then reflashes the memory in the Camaro's engine control computer to deal with the onslaught. A Vortech bypass valve is plumbed in to keep boost levels down at 8.5 psi. The result is 603 hp at 5,900 rpm and 518 lb-ft of torque at 4,300 rpm.
Besides the supercharger system itself, the only changes to this 2010 Chevrolet Camaro SS have been the addition of a mellow-sounding Corsa cat-back exhaust system ($1,599.99, not including $200 installation) and a pair of 275/40R20 Nitto Extreme Drag NT55R tires ($584). Vortech didn't touch the suspension and the car even wears the same wheels Chevy bolted to it on the assembly line in Oshawa, Ontario.
But it's not the drive belt, pipes or programming that matter. It's the speed.
Blast to Last
With the shift lever in Drive and a drag strip technique that consists of planting the accelerator and getting a death grip on the steering wheel, this vicious beast blasts from zero to 60 mph in just 4.1 seconds (3.8 seconds with 1 foot of rollout like on a drag strip). The quarter-mile simply vanishes in 12.33 seconds at 115.4 mph.
The obvious comparison here is to the Chevrolet Camaro HPE550 by Hennessey Performance Engineering, another supercharged monster. That machine, running a six-speed manual transmission, was a bit quicker over the quarter-mile, doing the deed in 12.1 seconds at 120.1 mph. But it is behind the Vortech automatic in the 0-60 contest, since it takes 4.3 seconds (4.0 seconds with 1 foot of rollout like on a drag strip) to accomplish the feat.
For the record, the Vortech Camaro is much quicker than a stock Camaro SS. It's a full seven-tenths of a second quicker to 60 mph than our previous SS test car, which came equipped with a manual transmission. (In fact, the Vortech Camaro is the first Camaro SS we've driven with the automatic transmission.)
But the numbers only tell part of the story. The Hennessey-built Camaro is an absolutely vicious brute. It's the sort of machine that sends children scurrying for cover and can punish a driver for a moment's inattention. On the other hand, the Vortech machine is equally quick and yet laid-back at the same time — it's more manageable and easygoing.
This Camaro's automatic transmission is an important part of the equation. Vortech has done an outstanding job of matching the engine with the transmission. Left in Drive and with part throttle used, the engine will rev to somewhere just north of three grand and shift — no real boost effect is felt. Left in Drive and with the throttle floored, the engine will hit the boost at about 4,000 rpm and scream to 6,000 rpm before shifting with a satisfying whump. And if that's not enough, the transmission can be shifted to a manual operation mode that lets you choose your gear with trigger switches on the backside of the steering wheel spokes. Overall, there's some deterioration in throttle application linearity (when the blower hits, it hits hard), but around town this Camaro will putter along like a Cushman scooter.
To some peculiar minds, the essence of any supercharger installation is the ability of the car to generate massive blue-gray clouds of tire smoke in a burnout. Surprisingly enough, it takes some very specific techniques to get the Vortech Camaro to generate a haze of burning rubber.
Turn off the stability control, hold down the brake pedal and hit the accelerator pedal, and the engine will rise to 2,000 rpm and just spin steadily while the brake pedal seems to press back against your foot as if the car is trying to break free. This is, after all, an engine computer programmed by GM to avoid warranty problems.
So to generate the smoke, it takes a light touch on the brake — just enough to lock the front wheels — and a light, progressive touch on the throttle. Done right, the engine will climb into the meat of its power band and generate enough smoke to make even burnout connoisseurs shudder in giddy ecstasy.
But for most of us, burnouts are just a stunt — a fun way to burn off some tire tread. A burnout probably isn't enough of a reason to send $6,960.50 to Vortech Engineering, Inc. for its supercharger kit for the 2010 Chevrolet Camaro SS and then set aside about $1,500 for the installation. The better reason is that Vortech hardware makes an already quick car into the 2010 Chevrolet Camaro SS Supercharged by Vortech Engineering, which is a serious challenger to Vipers and Ferraris.
And while it sounds nasty, it runs sweet.
The manufacturer provided Edmunds this vehicle for the purposes of evaluation.
|08-19-2009, 09:15 AM||#4|
Squires Turbo Systems (STS)
Lower underhood temperatures. No need to worry about melting wires, hoses, or other engine components, as with a front-mounted turbo.
Ease of installation. STS turbo systems can be installed in about 8 hours with standard tools and average mechanical ability.
Cooler oil to the turbo. Cool oil is better for both the turbo and engine.
Performance Sound. The turbo acts as a muffler and sounds like an aftermarket performance muffler. Turbo spool and rushing air from the blow-off valve make a unique sound that will turn heads!
No need for major modifications to your vehicle. STS systems are designed to "bolt-on" to factory mounts.
Increased gas mileage. Unlike a belt driven supercharger, the turbo utilizes "wasted" energy leaving your tailpipe. Most of our customers get 1-3 mpg increase in gas mileage compared to their original stock mpg numbers.
Converts back to stock in about an hour.
More room under the hood. Future repair work or modifications will not require the expense of removing the turbo system to allow access to engine components.
Lowest Intake Air Temps. Low IAT's equate to more horsepower per pound of boost than any other forced induction option. STS intake piping provides built-in intercooling. Add the optional intercooler, and IAT's drop even further.
Approximately 500F lower turbo temperatures. Eliminates the need for a turbo-timer, which allows the engine to run after the car is shut off in order to cool down the turbo and prevent oil and bearing damage.
Denser exhaust gasses drive the turbo turbine wheel more efficiently.
Turbo is exposed to ambient air rather than underhood air. Allows for better cooling of turbo components.
No need for expensive headers, mufflers, or exhaust systems.
Turbo is closer to the tail pipe outlet. Provides a better pressure differential across the turbine wheel which promotes better flow across turbine.
Better weight transfer. Increases traction because the bulk of system is mounted in rear of vehicle rather than up front.
Less noise and heat in the passenger compartment.
"Ultimate Performance" - L99 8.5 psi. 530/550 RWHP/RWTQ
-Dual ball bearing Garrett turbo good for over 750hp (T04Z or "GT37R")
-Polished turbo housing that is easily visible when you pop the hood
-T4 flanged so turbo upgrades will be simple (Up to 1200+)
-Tial 44mm wastegate with .4 bar spring (5 to 6 psi depending on exhaust)
-Tial 50mm Blow Off Valve
-Stainless steel hot pipes
-High quality front mount intercooler
-Polished Aluminum Charge pipes
-Pre-tuned Engine Management so the end user can upload a safe baseline map to drive around on till he wants to push it more than wastegate springs
-Colder range spark plugs
-Bolts to factory or aftermarket exhaust
-Cold air intake for the turbo
-Kits for the LS3 and L99 followed by the V6 version soon
-Affordable price (Details very soon on price)
-Full easy to follow instructions and can be installed by the average person
|08-19-2009, 09:20 AM||#5|
All info included on the graph.
Keith 2SS/RS MN6 in CGM. Delivered 6/22/09. Blown 7/29/09. Sold 12/6/10.
07 GMC Sierra
|08-19-2009, 09:24 AM||#6|
|08-19-2009, 09:53 AM||#7|
Keith 2SS/RS MN6 in CGM. Delivered 6/22/09. Blown 7/29/09. Sold 12/6/10.
07 GMC Sierra
|08-19-2009, 10:23 AM||#8|
Drives: 2010 CAMARO
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Pittsburgh-ish - PA
look at this craziness!
Looks like fun, but coming from a SRT-4.... I assume there will be loads of turbo lag putting them way back by the tires.
|08-19-2009, 01:32 PM||#9|
|08-19-2009, 08:23 PM||#10|
Join Date: Jul 2009
|08-27-2009, 12:58 AM||#11|
Drives: 2010 Camaro SS LS3
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Fishkill, NY
|08-31-2009, 09:09 AM||#13|
AH yes... Working on these.
|09-17-2009, 09:35 AM||#14|
|11-14-2009, 03:22 AM||#15|
High on "The Camaro Life"
Drives: 2010 2SS, IOM, LS3, Vortech, LG cam
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Big Sandy, MT & Yuma, AZ
Vortech on LS3-- 631 RWHP
Radz, I just made 631 RWHP @ 7.5 lbs boost on 91 octane pump gas,
with a Vortech V-3si and ARH Long tubes, high flow cats, 3" exhaust
and Magnaflow muffler. Custom RMCR tune. No other mods.
Here's my build thread: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51856
"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who are not."-Thomas Jefferson------Going Strong at 39,250 miles
|12-01-2009, 10:55 PM||#16|
Drives: 2010 ABM Camaro 2SS LS3 w/RS
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: London, Ontario
I am going to keep it simple !! Ordering a TVS 2300 SC tomorrow !! The kit I am getting supplies a handheld tuner to get me rolling until I can get onto a Dyno...... with a CAI (from wifey for Xmas!!) I am expecting over 550 hp at the flywheel ...... ya think ??? I hear up to 600 HP ! I am thinking about gutting the OEM mufflers....any advise .
Roto Fab CAI, Magnacharger MP2300, Kooks HO SS 1-7/8" LT's, Kook's Catted Connectors, Corsa SS Dual Rear Exit Cat-Back for A6 with Lasered Livernois Signature 4" Dual Wall Exit Pipes, Barton Short Throw. 546 RWHP 517 RWT
This Car Rocks !! "Bring It On" GT-500
|12-28-2009, 10:03 PM||#17|
17 Yr old Owner :D
Drives: 2010 1LT Camaro
Join Date: Dec 2009
Aight man this is the page i was looking for...
Well i have a lot of Q's hopefully u can answer..
First, On a V6 what should i put in it.. turbocharger, supercharger, etc.. idk which is better (performance wise like in hp)
Second, if i install one do i still need a CAI..?
Third will it take out a Challanger RT with 370 some Hp... (My friend recently got one for christmas and is talking shiz lol)
Ur advice would be highly considered please.. i wanna learn..
|01-12-2010, 08:07 AM||#18|
Drives: 2010 ABM Camaro 2SS LS3 w/RS
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: London, Ontario
A supercharger, although it does rob power from the engine (belt driven from the drive train) it makes up for it. Cleaner....makes it invariably more reliable. A SC is also ready to go pretty much as sson as you step on the gas whereas the turbo has lag. Some people don't like the slight whine you get from a SC. I barely noticed it. A SC looks better too, I want to show it off and a Turbo, IMO, just looks like it doesn't belong!
Nuff said, don't cheap out. But one that has many "good" reviews and after purchase support. The TVS2300 has a 2 yr warranty and for 200 bucks I can get 3 yrs coverage for my engine! Speaks for itself eh!
Roto Fab CAI, Magnacharger MP2300, Kooks HO SS 1-7/8" LT's, Kook's Catted Connectors, Corsa SS Dual Rear Exit Cat-Back for A6 with Lasered Livernois Signature 4" Dual Wall Exit Pipes, Barton Short Throw. 546 RWHP 517 RWT
This Car Rocks !! "Bring It On" GT-500
|01-13-2010, 10:12 PM||#19|
Drives: 2SSRS REVOLUTIONSS
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: DULUTH, GA
Ok so I completely just fried my mind reading all this info. I wanted a turbo system so bad but now I've narrowed it down to a SC but which one?
Twin-screw Superchargers or Centrifugal Superchargers any suggestions? Also which company is best between the both? So Fried I feel like a mustang that just got its but whooped by an SS
|01-14-2010, 09:36 AM||#20|
Victory Racing Engines
"Street Sniper" - LS3 7.0 psi. 560/606 RWHP/RWTQ
-Turbonetics TC76 Turbo (divided housing, water cooled)
-JGS 50 wastegate (Recirculating)
-JGS 56mm blow off valve
-Vibrant Polished front mounted intercooler
-All 304 stainless steel piping and fittings
-All polished aluminum charge piping
-Vibrant 4 ply black couplers
-All Vibrant clamps (V-bands and T-bolts)
-3 inch downpipe that splits into two 2.5 inch and bolts to factory or aftermarket exhaust.
-Steel braided -4 oil feed line with fittings
-Steel braided -10 return line with fittings
-All vacuum lines and fittings
-Water cooled lines for turbo with all fittings
-Detailed easy to follow instructions
|02-25-2010, 05:17 PM||#21|
Drives: 2SS Victory Red
Join Date: Jul 2009
After selling Paxton in 1998 I went full speed ahead into the turbocharger business. We build and designed kits for many of the most popular GM, Ford and Dodge applications and many custom kits as well. In 2001 Ford had us build a Paxton Blown 4v Modular engine to go drag racing under their banner and again using 1 Novi 2000 supercharger (which I designed when I still owned Paxton) we made 1080hp. Again I removed the Paxton and installed 1 101mm turbo and made 1480hp.
Fast Forward to 2006 – I was approached by Jerry Magnuson to help work on the Eaton type Roots/Rotor/Screw type blowers. While this was a new path for us, I was more then eager to learn about this form of forced induction as well – now here comes my opinion….
CamBoy – I say NO WAY do you install a centrifugal on your V6. Centrifugals make boost linear to engine RPM. That means down low the centrifugal will not satisfy you – With the V6 you need to make up for the lack of Grunt (torque) right off the line. I think a turbo kit we be awesome for your requirement or a Magnuson type blower. I really don’t know anyone that offers a nice direct fit as off today. We are going to work on the V6 turbo kit as soon s the V8 is done. Whoever does build or sell you a forced inductions kit will most likely offer it with the appropriate air intake to go with it. I know Lingenfelter was working on V6 stuff but I am sure the prices will be stiff too. As for taking out a 370hp Dodge RT – I would say YES for sure that will be plausible
Riderover40 – To each his own – I hear what you’re saying but just a few things. Turbolag is a thing of the past. There is no such thing anymore as turbolag. When sized properly to the application it just isn’t there
Look at the dyno graph below -
I understand it is for a Mustang but it paints a perfect picture of how a perfectly sized turbo has no lag – even as low as 2600 the engine has picked up 60hp – that shows the boost is already there – in fact, 60hp at 2600 is a gain of 52% - that means this engine had at least 7psi by 2600 on its way to 10psi total. Turbos are as reliable and durable are any supercharger too. HEAT – I agree if you mount a turbo up by the valve cover there is extra unwanted heat and that needs to be factored in. We typically mount the turbos down low and heat is a non factor –
As for looks – I agree a Maggy in the center of the engine is hard to beat for looks – it looks clean – but so does a nice twin turbo system – as for centrifugal blowers like Paxton, Vortech and Procharger – they make but loads of top end power – probably the most but they look like they are out of place. – We agree on that
GenetX – If you have a V8 2010 and want all a great package – you cant go wrong with an off the shelf TVS2300 from Magnuson – with that said at 7.5 psi they make 450 to the tires in the real world – that works out to be 560 at the crank. If you plan to go over that - you need more than just the kit as delivered – like smaller blower pulley – voids warranty on blower, plus headers and perhaps a cam change. It is easy to make 550 at the tires with the TVS2300 but it takes more than just a standard kit with a 2 or 3 year warranty. The turbo on the other hand has proven to be a real 500 hp to the tires at just 5.5 psi and even 600 at 8psi. Single or twin – twin makes more power down low and package better – it is just a matter of moving air from point A to point T – (throttle body) - Wait until you see the twin turbo kit GMS and TTi are working on. It is worth the wait (4 more weeks)
Hope a few read this and take it for what it is worth – in the end you can’t make a bad choice - short of putting a centrifugal on a 6 cylinder – don’t do it.
SO we all know I am being totally honest – Yes I agree below 3k a Maggie is KING. After that the turbos win hands down. If what you want is a great car that is silky smooth down low and make BALLS out power on the Top – the centrifugal is great.
|02-25-2010, 05:19 PM||#22|
Drives: 2SS Victory Red
Join Date: Jul 2009
|02-25-2010, 05:49 PM||#23|
Drives: Vortech 'Charged 06 Mustang GT
Join Date: May 2009
|02-25-2010, 06:54 PM||#24|
SoCal C5 Family Member
Drives: 2010 Camaro 2SS/RS
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: torrance/redondo beach
|02-26-2010, 03:06 PM||#25|
Drives: 2SS Victory Red
Join Date: Jul 2009
Please don't get me wrong - I am torn between multiple lovers here. You and the world know how I feel about the Novi-2000. I think the centrifugal certainly has its place in the market - hell I spent what seems like my entire life pushing and talking about centrifugals. When I sold Paxton - I kept the Novi blowers on all my cars and boat with the exception on my 1997 Tahoe which was my first attempt since the 1982 Camaro at Turbo charging. With a very wimpy Turbonetics 60-1 turbo. I made 10hp more then the Novi at 6psi and 112 ft/lbs more. At 10psi the Novi was making 38hp more then the baby turbo (2.5" inlet on turbo vs 4.00" inlet on Novi-2000) but the turbo still managed 104ft/lbs more. So as a truck owner towing a boat - The turbo was king. At the drag strip - you can image what happened.
As any drag racer on the planet if they would trade 38hp for 100 ft/lbs. - Anyone with any experience knows 100ft/lbs in barge like SUV trumps 40 hp every time.
Look at the turbo system on the orange car a few posts back, it packages as nice as any centrifugal kit I have seen so far for the Camaro. But knowing what I know and seeing what the dyno results are
8psi - 484hp / 421ft/lbs - Centrifugal
7psi - 560hp / 606ft/lbs - Turbo
Hard to argue with +76hp & +185ft/lbs of the turbo system
Personally since I never drive a car past 5k miles I would run the turbo if these were my only 2 choices. However if this was my true daily driver and only car - it would be hard to argue that the Vortech system is not the safer of the 2. I would love to be proven wrong but I think hanging a huge ass turbo in that location is definitely a MEGA heater and will take it toll on the surrounding areas - so for that reason I agree the Centrifugal is a great choice.
However - mounting twin smaller 68mm turbos down low like these:
is a totally different story - There is no heat issues because the air running under the car more then makes up for it - Even a centrifugal or screw blower on top of the motor adds heat - No where near what the turbo does but still MORE HEAT.
Now to address the specifics of the 1000's of happy 350Z and G35 customers and quite a few 4.0L Mustang owners. Have they had a chance to compare to a turbo in the same application?
Listen to the Vortech You tube video and the GMS video back to back - you can hear how quick the turbo motor "ramps” the torque number down low on the centrifugal can't come close to the turbo.
I am not saying the centrifugal is a bad choice - I am saying a turbo on a v6 (that already is giving up bottom end) is a better choice when it comes to torque and torque moves the car - AND the centrifugal does not add noticeable torque down low where the v6 needs it
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